Hi, we're very excited to have found THE BOAT, or at least the one we hope is THE BOAT, after a long time looking. We are scheduling the survey on what appears to be an exceptional 1985 Hunter 31 and thought other owners might have suggestions on key areas to check on (or things to know about) this particular boat. (The owner reviews have already been very helpful.) Although the surveyor is the 'expert,' we plan to stay completely involved through the entire process. It's been quite a learning experience already! Thanks for any help you might offer. We're looking forward to sailing the Chesapeake soon. Diane
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Check the compression post
Be sure to check the compression post for rot. Make sure you check both the top and bottom of the post. My surveyor just checked the top, and then he just checked the teak, not the post itself. A key indicator of whether the boat has post problems is a "sticking" door to the head/shower area. There are some pictures of an H31/H34 compression post repair. The repair is either expensive or time consuming. Also, check the condition of the gate valves; you may want/need to replace with seacocks.
Be sure to check the compression post for rot. Make sure you check both the top and bottom of the post. My surveyor just checked the top, and then he just checked the teak, not the post itself. A key indicator of whether the boat has post problems is a "sticking" door to the head/shower area. There are some pictures of an H31/H34 compression post repair. The repair is either expensive or time consuming. Also, check the condition of the gate valves; you may want/need to replace with seacocks.
only an expert if they know the boat.
Diane: Do not rely on the surveyor as being an expert unless they are 'very' familiar with the Hunters of this era. All suveyors are ex-pert when they are selling their services. Ask how many Hunter from 1983-1987 they have surveyed. If you check the archives and find out how many surveyors have missed obvious items that they SHOULD have found you will be surprised. As far as I am concerned, they ONLY way to find out if the compress post is leaking is to remove one of the panels on the compression post. If the owner is not willing to let this happen, I would consider walking. Your other option is to reduce the asking price by $4000 and take your chances. That is what it costs to do this repair. There is also the possibility of problems in the crossmember. This problem is also not that obvious until other symptoms show up. There is no guarantee that ANY surveyor is going to find everything. You just need to limit your liability by finding one that is knowledgable with the vintage that you are looking at.
Diane: Do not rely on the surveyor as being an expert unless they are 'very' familiar with the Hunters of this era. All suveyors are ex-pert when they are selling their services. Ask how many Hunter from 1983-1987 they have surveyed. If you check the archives and find out how many surveyors have missed obvious items that they SHOULD have found you will be surprised. As far as I am concerned, they ONLY way to find out if the compress post is leaking is to remove one of the panels on the compression post. If the owner is not willing to let this happen, I would consider walking. Your other option is to reduce the asking price by $4000 and take your chances. That is what it costs to do this repair. There is also the possibility of problems in the crossmember. This problem is also not that obvious until other symptoms show up. There is no guarantee that ANY surveyor is going to find everything. You just need to limit your liability by finding one that is knowledgable with the vintage that you are looking at.
Surveyors
Marine surveyors are just as reliable as home inspectors. They will point out the obvious and garentee nothing. Having said that it is still cheap insurance so to speak. I paid $10/ft (very cheap) and he found several items for me to negociate on. It is a good idea to be there when he does the inspection. Good Luck, Jeff
Marine surveyors are just as reliable as home inspectors. They will point out the obvious and garentee nothing. Having said that it is still cheap insurance so to speak. I paid $10/ft (very cheap) and he found several items for me to negociate on. It is a good idea to be there when he does the inspection. Good Luck, Jeff
1985 Hunter 31
I just purchased a 1985 Hunter 31 in December for the Chesapeake. The survey came back with some defects that allowed me to negotiate an additional 1500 of the asking price. In general, the boat checked out ok, but I do have some corrosion on the keel that I am dealing with. I am also told that the rig, which is now 17 years old, may be reaching its useful lifetime - definitly have that carfully checked out. The surveyor came up with lots of little things that I think Hunter did in 1985, that are probably sub-standard by today's measures, i.e., the fuel lines, the though-hulls, etc., but nothing too serious.
I just purchased a 1985 Hunter 31 in December for the Chesapeake. The survey came back with some defects that allowed me to negotiate an additional 1500 of the asking price. In general, the boat checked out ok, but I do have some corrosion on the keel that I am dealing with. I am also told that the rig, which is now 17 years old, may be reaching its useful lifetime - definitly have that carfully checked out. The surveyor came up with lots of little things that I think Hunter did in 1985, that are probably sub-standard by today's measures, i.e., the fuel lines, the though-hulls, etc., but nothing too serious.
Hi Diane, most good surveyors will check...
topside, below decks and hull for structural integrity. The surveyor should take at least four to six hours to do a good job on this size boat. The first two while it is in the water and the hull after it has been hauled out and pressure washed, all at the owner's expense. While the surveyor does the hull on the hard be sure to replace the zinc/s and throughly clean the speed meter impeller, if it has one. Steve has a good point about how well they know the boat. They also will normally not look at the propulsion engine or sails/rigging. You need separate surveyors for that. Do you know how many hours are on the engine? If it has more than two thousand hours I would have the engine surveyed. Most Yanmar engines will last for 8,000 to 10,000 hours if well cared for. If these are the original sails, as many are, they are beyond their useful life. Just some things to ponder, IMHO. Terry
topside, below decks and hull for structural integrity. The surveyor should take at least four to six hours to do a good job on this size boat. The first two while it is in the water and the hull after it has been hauled out and pressure washed, all at the owner's expense. While the surveyor does the hull on the hard be sure to replace the zinc/s and throughly clean the speed meter impeller, if it has one. Steve has a good point about how well they know the boat. They also will normally not look at the propulsion engine or sails/rigging. You need separate surveyors for that. Do you know how many hours are on the engine? If it has more than two thousand hours I would have the engine surveyed. Most Yanmar engines will last for 8,000 to 10,000 hours if well cared for. If these are the original sails, as many are, they are beyond their useful life. Just some things to ponder, IMHO. Terry
Terry -- Haul at Who's Expense?
All of this input is great, I hope it continues! Terry, you said it would be hauled out of the water and power-washed at the owner's expense. Is this the norm? We understood that since it's in the water already, it was on our nickel to have the yard pull it for survey. Any clarification on that would be appreciated. We've lined up a local surveyor (well referred) who will make the hour drive to the boat, instead of using someone down there (who we know nothing about). I'm going to be printing a lot of information from this site to bring with us and to our surveyor. We expect that he'll find plenty of 'concerns,' but hopefully nothing serious/costly enough to send us running. There's no engine meter so we're not sure about the hours, but maybe there's more information in the owner's documentation. He appears to have kept excellent records. We'll talk to our surveyor about this and see if he recommends a separate engine inspection. Thanks again.
All of this input is great, I hope it continues! Terry, you said it would be hauled out of the water and power-washed at the owner's expense. Is this the norm? We understood that since it's in the water already, it was on our nickel to have the yard pull it for survey. Any clarification on that would be appreciated. We've lined up a local surveyor (well referred) who will make the hour drive to the boat, instead of using someone down there (who we know nothing about). I'm going to be printing a lot of information from this site to bring with us and to our surveyor. We expect that he'll find plenty of 'concerns,' but hopefully nothing serious/costly enough to send us running. There's no engine meter so we're not sure about the hours, but maybe there's more information in the owner's documentation. He appears to have kept excellent records. We'll talk to our surveyor about this and see if he recommends a separate engine inspection. Thanks again.
at the buyers expense...
Diane: I think that the entire survey process is at the BUYERS expense. It is for their (buyers) protection and not the sellers. When you find problems it becomes a bargining point. You can either reduce the asking price to accomodate the repair or have the buyer pay to have the repair done as a condition of sale.
Diane: I think that the entire survey process is at the BUYERS expense. It is for their (buyers) protection and not the sellers. When you find problems it becomes a bargining point. You can either reduce the asking price to accomodate the repair or have the buyer pay to have the repair done as a condition of sale.
Hi Diane, Oops! At the buyer's expense...
is what I meant to say. I don't know what I was thinking. I've purchased two boats and in both cases I paid for the haul out. Sorry. Terry
is what I meant to say. I don't know what I was thinking. I've purchased two boats and in both cases I paid for the haul out. Sorry. Terry
Thanks Steve for the vote of confidence...
If you're ever coming up this way be sure to let me know. We have skipper's night every Wednesday at the Woodfire Grill in the Everett Marina; a nice place to tip a few brewskies. I had planned on sailing over to Ganges on Salt Spring Island this morning to spend a few days, but gale force winds accompanied a low pressure system. Sure stirred things up. Maybe next week. The new Xantrex inverter/charger that I just installed made a big difference in the electrical system operation. Belle-Vie is pretty ship shape. Terry
If you're ever coming up this way be sure to let me know. We have skipper's night every Wednesday at the Woodfire Grill in the Everett Marina; a nice place to tip a few brewskies. I had planned on sailing over to Ganges on Salt Spring Island this morning to spend a few days, but gale force winds accompanied a low pressure system. Sure stirred things up. Maybe next week. The new Xantrex inverter/charger that I just installed made a big difference in the electrical system operation. Belle-Vie is pretty ship shape. Terry
Keel rust deduction
Unless the keel on that '31 has been blasted, treated and barrier coated in the last 2 years, there WILL be rust on it somewhere. I wouldn't take off a dime for keel rust if I sold my boat, unless it was a true "deal breaker" for the uninformed buyer who hasn't looked at any other Hunter 31's and noticed they almost every cast iron keel will have rust.It is COSMETIC, but then exactly sometimes that's what sells boats and houses.
Unless the keel on that '31 has been blasted, treated and barrier coated in the last 2 years, there WILL be rust on it somewhere. I wouldn't take off a dime for keel rust if I sold my boat, unless it was a true "deal breaker" for the uninformed buyer who hasn't looked at any other Hunter 31's and noticed they almost every cast iron keel will have rust.It is COSMETIC, but then exactly sometimes that's what sells boats and houses.
First Boat - 1985 Hunter 31 - UPDATE from Diane
Hi everyone -- we had the survey today. And besides the usual list of things that need attention, we did discover a large problem. Anyone want to guess?? At the compression post!! It appears that the crossmember is compressing/collapsing, causing a large bulge in the fiberglass aft of the crossbeam. You can also see the excessive(?) compression from inside the head and yes, the head door sticks. The compression beam itself appears to be O.K. from what we can see. On deck, you can only see a small degree of compression at the mast -- it's inside where everything is happening. We don't how we missed this the first time around. We're also not certain of the extent of the problem yet. We were certainly hoping for a better outcome from the survey ....but with everyone's input here in this forum, at least we weren't completely surprised. Any other input/suggestions would be welcome, either here or directly to my email address. Once the survey is completed, the broker will have to go back to the seller and we'll see how things progress from there. I know we're not talking about 'minor bucks' with this one. Thanks again for all the support.
Hi everyone -- we had the survey today. And besides the usual list of things that need attention, we did discover a large problem. Anyone want to guess?? At the compression post!! It appears that the crossmember is compressing/collapsing, causing a large bulge in the fiberglass aft of the crossbeam. You can also see the excessive(?) compression from inside the head and yes, the head door sticks. The compression beam itself appears to be O.K. from what we can see. On deck, you can only see a small degree of compression at the mast -- it's inside where everything is happening. We don't how we missed this the first time around. We're also not certain of the extent of the problem yet. We were certainly hoping for a better outcome from the survey ....but with everyone's input here in this forum, at least we weren't completely surprised. Any other input/suggestions would be welcome, either here or directly to my email address. Once the survey is completed, the broker will have to go back to the seller and we'll see how things progress from there. I know we're not talking about 'minor bucks' with this one. Thanks again for all the support.
How do they know the compression post....
Diane: How do they know that the compression post is OKAY? I do not think you really would know unless they removed the covering. Regardless they will need to remove the compression post and the bulkhead to do this repair. I have copied a link for you to review. This was done by an owner of a Hunter 34, but it is basically the same setup. If you look up the Photo Forum and enter '34' for the models to look up you will see some other links for this situation. http://www.sailboatowners.com/upload/display.tpl?folder=Hadad73043553070&fno=17 IF you can get the owner to pay for this I would not walk away from the deal. Once this is fixed and done correctly you should not have this problem again. I would guess that you are looking at a price of $2500-4500 for these repairs. They need to remove the mast and then open the crossmemeber (removing the fiberglass and wood). Then replace this with some type of material. Reseal the area and install a NEW compression post (metal)with the appropriate covering and finishing of the interior. Be sure that if there is any other gelcoat repairs that need to be done on the boat to have it done while they are doing these repairs. Most yards don't do the gel coat themselves, so you can save some money when the guy comes in to do the interior gelcoat and anyother touchup at the same time. Good luck, let us know what you do.
Diane: How do they know that the compression post is OKAY? I do not think you really would know unless they removed the covering. Regardless they will need to remove the compression post and the bulkhead to do this repair. I have copied a link for you to review. This was done by an owner of a Hunter 34, but it is basically the same setup. If you look up the Photo Forum and enter '34' for the models to look up you will see some other links for this situation. http://www.sailboatowners.com/upload/display.tpl?folder=Hadad73043553070&fno=17 IF you can get the owner to pay for this I would not walk away from the deal. Once this is fixed and done correctly you should not have this problem again. I would guess that you are looking at a price of $2500-4500 for these repairs. They need to remove the mast and then open the crossmemeber (removing the fiberglass and wood). Then replace this with some type of material. Reseal the area and install a NEW compression post (metal)with the appropriate covering and finishing of the interior. Be sure that if there is any other gelcoat repairs that need to be done on the boat to have it done while they are doing these repairs. Most yards don't do the gel coat themselves, so you can save some money when the guy comes in to do the interior gelcoat and anyother touchup at the same time. Good luck, let us know what you do.
Compression Post Veterans
Steve is correct in his price range for the repair. If the owner gives you an adequate price reduction for the work, I say go for it!! We've sailed our Hunter 31 for 17 years and averaged more than a thousand miles each summer. For two people, it's a great cruising boat and faster than many boats the same size.
Steve is correct in his price range for the repair. If the owner gives you an adequate price reduction for the work, I say go for it!! We've sailed our Hunter 31 for 17 years and averaged more than a thousand miles each summer. For two people, it's a great cruising boat and faster than many boats the same size.
Your Fix vs. Owners Fix
Ranter than require the owner to have the boat repaired as a condition of purchase, if it were my deal I would prefer to have the priced reduced and I would arrange to have it done. The disadvantage of having the seller do the work it you have minimum control over the quality of the work and the seller will want to get it done the cheapest way possible. On the other hand, if you get an appropriate price reduction and have the work done you can pick the yard, have an agreement with the yard on how it will be done, and greater control over the quality of work. The downside of you doing the work is (1) you have no use of the boat even though you own it and (2) it is "work" to contract and quality control the work, something that you should but probably cannot get a price reduction for. There is always the possibility of finding "other things" during the course of the project which will cost $ to fix: Replacing the mast wiring (the mast will be off and this an excellent time to replace the wiring and maybe the steaming and anchor lights. Maybe add a Windex? Installing a new VHF coax and antenna? On the other hand if you're close by you can do this work yourself while the boat is being worked on by the yard (an andvantage to you). Try to USE (as a consultant) your surveyor to work through this as he is familiar with your "deal" and the boat. The surveyor can assist in the contract with the yard and maybe help with the progress inspection or suggest someone who will. Find out what he will cost you for these services. The work should be inspected when everything is ripped out and probably at stages when it is put back together before it is all covered up. The yard should let you know when they will be at a certain stage of work so you can look at it. Don't forget to incude a cost for having a rigger tune the rig when it's finished.
Ranter than require the owner to have the boat repaired as a condition of purchase, if it were my deal I would prefer to have the priced reduced and I would arrange to have it done. The disadvantage of having the seller do the work it you have minimum control over the quality of the work and the seller will want to get it done the cheapest way possible. On the other hand, if you get an appropriate price reduction and have the work done you can pick the yard, have an agreement with the yard on how it will be done, and greater control over the quality of work. The downside of you doing the work is (1) you have no use of the boat even though you own it and (2) it is "work" to contract and quality control the work, something that you should but probably cannot get a price reduction for. There is always the possibility of finding "other things" during the course of the project which will cost $ to fix: Replacing the mast wiring (the mast will be off and this an excellent time to replace the wiring and maybe the steaming and anchor lights. Maybe add a Windex? Installing a new VHF coax and antenna? On the other hand if you're close by you can do this work yourself while the boat is being worked on by the yard (an andvantage to you). Try to USE (as a consultant) your surveyor to work through this as he is familiar with your "deal" and the boat. The surveyor can assist in the contract with the yard and maybe help with the progress inspection or suggest someone who will. Find out what he will cost you for these services. The work should be inspected when everything is ripped out and probably at stages when it is put back together before it is all covered up. The yard should let you know when they will be at a certain stage of work so you can look at it. Don't forget to incude a cost for having a rigger tune the rig when it's finished.
Not necessarily so, John
"The disadvantage of having the seller do the work it you have minimum control over the quality of the work and the seller will want to get it done the cheapest way possible." Not if you (the buyer) specify that the work be done to your surveyor's satisfaction by a yard approved by your surveyor. IMO, requiring the seller to make the repairs on those terms is the only way to go. 'Cuz as you pointed out, there's always the possibility of finding additional problems or more extensive damage once the job is underway. If you've agreed to a price reduction based only on what's obvious, it could end up costing you a lot more than you saved on the purchase price. There'd be no reason why you couldn't have any additional work done at your expense at the same time, which would give you the advantage of having your surveyor on hand to bird dog ALL the work as it progresses. And the best part is, ALL the work is done (except for any work you want to do yourself after the yard is done) by the time the deal is done.
"The disadvantage of having the seller do the work it you have minimum control over the quality of the work and the seller will want to get it done the cheapest way possible." Not if you (the buyer) specify that the work be done to your surveyor's satisfaction by a yard approved by your surveyor. IMO, requiring the seller to make the repairs on those terms is the only way to go. 'Cuz as you pointed out, there's always the possibility of finding additional problems or more extensive damage once the job is underway. If you've agreed to a price reduction based only on what's obvious, it could end up costing you a lot more than you saved on the purchase price. There'd be no reason why you couldn't have any additional work done at your expense at the same time, which would give you the advantage of having your surveyor on hand to bird dog ALL the work as it progresses. And the best part is, ALL the work is done (except for any work you want to do yourself after the yard is done) by the time the deal is done.
Peggy, We're Agreeing with You
Thanks for all the different viewpoints. While there will always be those Q.C. concerns with a repair job being paid by someone else, if you know the yard's reputation and keep your surveyor involved, I think it's manageable. Plus the more we've talked about it and the more we've researched, we've come to understand what a major undertaking this repair will be. We can be flexible on some of the other issues -- the normal things that you find on a boat this age -- but not on the compression post/beam. We were given very good advice by someone who said, 'the price you pay for the boat shouldn't just be the down payment.' We know there will always be maintenance and repairs with a boat. But we're looking to spend our first season ON the water and not eating PB&J sandwiches at the marina while the boat is being repaired! So now we wait for the survey results and whether the owner is willing to make the necessary repairs. [It's a beautiful day here in MD and we wish we already had a boat -- we could be painting the bottom instead of doing yardwork!!]
Thanks for all the different viewpoints. While there will always be those Q.C. concerns with a repair job being paid by someone else, if you know the yard's reputation and keep your surveyor involved, I think it's manageable. Plus the more we've talked about it and the more we've researched, we've come to understand what a major undertaking this repair will be. We can be flexible on some of the other issues -- the normal things that you find on a boat this age -- but not on the compression post/beam. We were given very good advice by someone who said, 'the price you pay for the boat shouldn't just be the down payment.' We know there will always be maintenance and repairs with a boat. But we're looking to spend our first season ON the water and not eating PB&J sandwiches at the marina while the boat is being repaired! So now we wait for the survey results and whether the owner is willing to make the necessary repairs. [It's a beautiful day here in MD and we wish we already had a boat -- we could be painting the bottom instead of doing yardwork!!]
Not too much choice.
Diane: The owner does not have a lot of choice in this matter. The only difference is how he/she pays for it. It is going to be a reduction in the purchase price or pay for it out of the procedes from the boat. I doubt that he is going to turn down your offer in this market. The boat is going to be un-saleable until this item is resolved. It is usually hard to turn down a sale when it is a buyers market.
Diane: The owner does not have a lot of choice in this matter. The only difference is how he/she pays for it. It is going to be a reduction in the purchase price or pay for it out of the procedes from the boat. I doubt that he is going to turn down your offer in this market. The boat is going to be un-saleable until this item is resolved. It is usually hard to turn down a sale when it is a buyers market.
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