Battery recommendation for a C30T

Feb 5, 2012
183
Catalina 1990 Catalina 30 Mark II Harbor Island Yacht Club, Old Hickory Lake, Nashville, TN
I've got a 1990 Catalina 30 Mark II that needs a new pair of batteries.

I've been trying to find the exact specs that I need, but haven't found the definitive answer.

My electrical engineer friend (who also has a C30) says I should definitely invest in a pair of AGM batteries. Is Group 27 the type that I need?

I've found several local dealers, but want to make the right purchase; having constant battery problems is driving me batty.

Thanks,

Bob
 
Last edited:
Feb 5, 2012
183
Catalina 1990 Catalina 30 Mark II Harbor Island Yacht Club, Old Hickory Lake, Nashville, TN
Stu,

Thanks for the links; lots of information there!

One of my yacht club mates. who is an electrical engineer and a C30 owner, strongly recommends AGM batteries. He told me that with lead-acid batteries and his 2 solar panels on his boat, he could see his lead-acid batteries losing power after only a few hours at night with his laptop. With the same boat and solar panels but with AGM batteries, he told me his problems went away and he's in the 7th year with his current pair of AGM batteries.

So I called a local battery company, spoke to the salesman there, told him what kind of marine batteries I have right now (lead-acid, bought from Walmart); his comment was that I'd get no more power from AGMs and that they would last about as long as AGMs.

Then I called my elec. engineer friend again, and he disputed this; I decided to go with a pair of AGM Group 31 batteries, which I'll get on Monday.

Very confusing; I'm going to take the advice in one of the posts you referenced, to keep my batteries topped off between sails. I also think the advice not to keep the boat constantly charging (I'm in a slip) is good advice, and am going to look at what I can do to not keep my batteries constantly charging.

I found a good price for DEKA batteries in Nashville ($250 each) and am going to pick them up Monday.
 

jrowan

.
Mar 5, 2011
1,294
O'Day 35 Severn River, Mobjack Bay, Va.
AGM glass mat batteries may indeed last a little longer then traditional lead acid type.
But one thing to consider is that a decent group 27 type traditional deep cell lead acid battery can be had for under $100. a piece, so less then $200. for two. When you have a quote at $250. a piece for AGM x 2=$500. then you are paying more then twice the price.
It's not just the type of battery you buy that creates longevity, but your usage & charging practices. In my opinion the lead acid are a much better deal, & when they do finally wear out they are much less of an investment to replace. Put the money you save into a good quality charging unit.
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,675
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
AGM glass mat batteries may indeed last a little longer then traditional lead acid type.

Can't say I have ever seen an AGM outlast a comparable quality flooded deep cycle in a cycling application. The have other benefits but long cycle life is not one of them for the average boater..


In my opinion the lead acid are a much better deal, & when they do finally wear out they are much less of an investment to replace. Put the money you save into a good quality charging unit.
GEL, AGM and Flooded batteries are all lead acid. Sadly far to many people waste money on AGM batteries because they do not address the "rest of the system" and treat an AGM upgrade like a system...

Flooded deep cycle batteries still remain the best bang for the buck..
 
Feb 5, 2012
183
Catalina 1990 Catalina 30 Mark II Harbor Island Yacht Club, Old Hickory Lake, Nashville, TN
AGM glass mat batteries may indeed last a little longer then traditional lead acid type.
But one thing to consider is that a decent group 27 type traditional deep cell lead acid battery can be had for under $100. a piece, so less then $200. for two. When you have a quote at $250. a piece for AGM x 2=$500. then you are paying more then twice the price.
It's not just the type of battery you buy that creates longevity, but your usage & charging practices. In my opinion the lead acid are a much better deal, & when they do finally wear out they are much less of an investment to replace. Put the money you save into a good quality charging unit.
I did a quick survey among boat owners here, did a few searches across the web, and spoke to a friend of mine who is an electrical engineer/Catalina 30T owner.

I finally made my decision based on a few things: a) my EE friend has AGM batteries and 2 solar panels. He told me that he consistently found that his lead-acids discharged faster than his AGMs, even with the same solar panels; he also said that while he had gone through pairs of lead-acids several times, each time lasting no longer than a year, he's now had his AGMs for 7 years.

At the time he was on a mooring as I was; now we're both on a new dock, so things will be a bit different.

I also based my decision on my own bad experience in the last year; I bought 2 "marine" batteries at $100+ each, and now one is bad already.

I'm also adding a small solar panel to my boat so that I can keep my AGMs topped off at the dock, without the need of a battery charger.

This seems to be a murky subject; on one sail forum (Sailnet I think), it seemed that AGMs clearly won the day, but here I'm seeing that there are lots of you who swear by lead-acids.

My final thought: If I can get 2 years at $500, that's the same as 4 lead-acids in 2 years, which is about what I've been through lately. I'm going to give this a try and heed my electrical engineer friend's advice.
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,675
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
I did a quick survey among boat owners here, did a few searches across the web, and spoke to a friend of mine who is an electrical engineer/Catalina 30T owner.

I finally made my decision based on a few things: a) my EE friend has AGM batteries and 2 solar panels. He told me that he consistently found that his lead-acids discharged faster than his AGMs, even with the same solar panels; he also said that while he had gone through pairs of lead-acids several times, each time lasting no longer than a year, he's now had his AGMs for 7 years.

At the time he was on a mooring as I was; now we're both on a new dock, so things will be a bit different.

I also based my decision on my own bad experience in the last year; I bought 2 "marine" batteries at $100+ each, and now one is bad already.

I'm also adding a small solar panel to my boat so that I can keep my AGMs topped off at the dock, without the need of a battery charger.

This seems to be a murky subject; on one sail forum (Sailnet I think), it seemed that AGMs clearly won the day, but here I'm seeing that there are lots of you who swear by lead-acids.

My final thought: If I can get 2 years at $500, that's the same as 4 lead-acids in 2 years, which is about what I've been through lately. I'm going to give this a try and heed my electrical engineer friend's advice.
You could buy those same Deka's at Sam's Club, as Duracell's, for $179.00 (below was the old price) and save even more...;)


My data is based mostly on mooring sailed or cruised boats but I do also have many at docks as well. At a dock or with solar I do see close to as long a life as 12V flooded (not 6V deep cycles) but not on moorings or on cruised boats..

Where does my thought process on this stem from? I am a marine electrician by trade and have invested in the very expensive equipment to capacity test, impedance test and track changes and determine "end of life". I began installing AGM's in boats when they were first marketed to the marine market. Back when they claimed 80% DOD was okay for them.. :doh:I also work very closely with a number of battery manufactures, industry leaders, the ABYC and I am heavily involved in the testing of new battery technologies not yet on the market to the public, including a new AGM variant current on my test bench. I don't just focus on lead aicd I also design & install both custom and factory made LiFePO4 lithium battery systems.

I can only offer my real world experience across many hundreds of vessels. You certainly can maximize the cycle life of AGM batteries but it can get expensive to do it right. I still install a LOT of AGM batteries but they are always installed and addressed as a compete system not just a drop in replacement for flooded batteries.

John Harries has written extensively about AGM's too:

Morgan's Cloud AGM's

Course you don't need to take my word for it. For the Deka/East Penn brand this is how they rate their own batteries.

NOTE: Only ratings within a brand/manufacturer are useful. Cross brand cycle life data is useless because there is no industry standard for testing. Most all of them are fantasy level data when applied to real world marine use. Only in-house manufacturer testing across their own batteries can be compared for guidelines.

-GEL Cycles to 50% = *1000 Cycles
-6V Flooded Golf Cart Batteries Cycled to 50% = *700-1000 Cycles
-12V Deep Cycle Flooded Cycled to 50% = *350 Cycles
-AGM Cycled to 50% = *300 Cycles


*NOTE: These are not what you will see in the "real world" except for the possibility of GEL.....

That is not my data but Deka's own data across their own batteries.... As can clearly be seen;

*They rate their 12V DC wets at 50 more cycles than AGM.
*They rate their 6V DC wets at 400 - 700 more cycles than AGM
*They rate GEL at 700 more cycles than AGM...

All batteries sulfate and one of the reasons AGM's suffer shorter life is because many brands can not be equalized. Lifeline's can be, but Deka can not.

One needs to be very careful when comparing batteries to other batteries. Many flooded batteries are sold and RELABELED by regional distributors and may not be what they claim to be. I see this very often. Compare a factory branded battery like a Trojan, Crown, US Battery or Deka to a factory branded AGM and then you have a much fairer comparison.

I have seen plenty of starting batteries "labeled" as "deep cycle" by battery distributors so it is buyer beware when buying non factory labeld "distributed" branded batteries.

1 year life to 7 tells me something changed dramatically with the switch from flooded to AGM.

For your Deka's:

*Set your charger at EXACTLY what Deka wants to see - 14.4V / 13.4V (optimum @ 75F)
*Make sure ALL charge sources including solar are accurately temperature compensated
*Make sure your alternator can handle the acceptance rate of the AGM batteries
*Try to feed them at least .2C in charge current from the alt or shore charger
*Get back to 100% SOC as often as possible - 1 timer per week minimum
*Be sure your charger is charging to full - Less than 1% CAR at 14.4V = 100% SOC
*Use a smart (truly smart not just in label) battery charger
*Keep them out of engine spaces or areas where it routinely gets above 80F
*Do not routinely discharge below 50% SOC
*Try to get back above 80% SOC ASAP after each discharge then 100% soon after
* Break your batteries in - Discharge then recharge to 100% every time, 20+ cycles.
*Install a battery SOC meter such as the Balmar Smart Gauge
*Shallower discharges lead to longer cycle life, don't go to 50% unless you need to

Do the above and you will maximize what you can get out of those batteries.
 
Feb 26, 2004
22,782
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
1. Listen to Maine Sail, he is respected across the internet.

2. Your friend is simply wrong. You wrote: "I finally made my decision based on a few things: a) my EE friend has AGM batteries and 2 solar panels. He told me that he consistently found that his lead-acids discharged faster than his AGMs,..." From a purely engineering standpoint, given the exact same load, that is physically impossible. While you may not be an engineer, I am. He may have been talking about voltage sag, but those of us who know recognize that voltage is not the right way to measure battery capacity when under load.

3. This is not a popularity contest of this forum vs sailnet for example. It's YOUR boat and YOUR wallet. Most of us have wet cells. Some buy AGMs for the wrong reasons. This was written in around 1999 or so, and except for the newer AGMs, the conclusions have NOT changed: wet cells = best bang for the buck. And a solar panel is still a great idea, regardless of what you buy.

http://www.c34.org/wiki/index.php?title=C34_Battery_Selection
 

dj2210

.
Feb 4, 2012
337
Catalina 30 Watts Bar
While all the above is true, I use the Duracell group 31s as pictured above from Sam's in my 1990 C30. $166 for AGM compared to $93 for regular. They fit in the space under the starboard settee nicely. I bought them about 2 years ago and haven't had any issues and it's nice not to have to check the electrolyte level. I also had 4 Odyssey's AGM group 31's in my electric powered C27. They were very expensive.
 

jrowan

.
Mar 5, 2011
1,294
O'Day 35 Severn River, Mobjack Bay, Va.
I bought the standard group 27 type lead acid deep cell batteries that are Duracell at Sam's club as well, but not AGM type. They cost around $90.00 so two are $180. So that's two batteries for the price as 1 AGM, even at Sams. If they can't last twice as long as a standard deep cell, then what's the advantage? Deep cell's can take deeper draw down as their lead plates are thicker, & take a lot of abuse. If you had a battery go bad in a year's time, then you either have a bad charger set up, or it was drawn down well past 50% of capacity, probably to the point where it was so dead it could not recover. That was not a battery design fault, but user error.
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,675
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
I bought the standard group 27 type lead acid deep cell batteries that are Duracell at Sam's club as well, but not AGM type. They cost around $90.00 so two are $180. So that's two batteries for the price as 1 AGM, even at Sams. If they can't last twice as long as a standard deep cell, then what's the advantage? Deep cell's can take deeper draw down as their lead plates are thicker, & take a lot of abuse.



If you bought the deep cycle version Deka rates those at 350 cycles and they rate the AGM at 300.... You won't see this, but probably half of that is achievable...

The advantages of AGM's are numerous; higher CAR (charge acceptance rate), higher Coulombic efficiency, lower self discharge, no need for electrolyte containment (not on all AGM's but some), can be mounted on their sides, and no "maintenance" (except Lifeline).

However, longevity over deep cycle flooded batteries is not one of the "advantages"..... If you want a VRLA battery with long cycle life GEL is the way to go.

I have three GEL banks right now in year 10, 12 and 15 and another of a forum member of "unknown age" but this boat is cruised extensively and the GELs keep going. I have a hand full of flooded 6V banks in year 10 quite a few L-16 or J305 series banks at year 9-11 and two Rolls banks at year 12. I have no AGM's past year 7 on cruised or mooring sailed boats. I have two AGM banks at year 7 on dock sailed boats but they get virtually no cycling or very shallow cycling..

Lifeline and Odyssey are the two "premium" AGM batteries and they do have longer cycle life than Deka but still not more than a good deep cycle flooded battery such as a GC2 6V.. Again many other benefits but cycle life is not one of them..

If you had a battery go bad in a year's time, then you either have a bad charger set up, or it was drawn down well past 50% of capacity, probably to the point where it was so dead it could not recover. That was not a battery design fault, but user error.
I see this over, and over and over again.:doh: Owners blame the short life on the batteries. They then buy AGM because the dude at West Marine or in the next slip said they were the "best".. Guess what? They die early too only leaving a much larger hole where the wallet was... :doh:

I am replacing two Lifeline 4D's on Monday. They are 3.5 years old on a large J Boat.. This is a mooring sailed boat with a fancy regulator and alternator but no temp compensation. He is on the second alternator because the first one melted itself due to improper installation & set up.. The regulator is set up completely wrong, voltage sensing is completely wrong, the bank is wired wrong and the batteries never got back above 80-85% SOC since installed. His installer did him no favors... They have also never once been equalized. 3.5 years, for that level of abuse this is outstanding life for AGM's despite the fact that they have less than 80 cycles on them. Scrap lead....:cry:

When I got there about 3 hours ago they were sitting at 11.95V.....!!!:cussing::cussing: But yeah, its the batteries.....

This owner is also getting solar, temp sensors and the regulator and alternator will be properly set up & rewired. Alt and reg are good just very poorly installed. A few tweaks to programs, re-wiring, temp sensors and he will be back in business.

He should now get 5-6 years out of his new Lifeline's on the mooring not 3.5..... He, like many, was blaming the AGM's. The icing on the cake is that the previous bank of flooded batteries (before the Lifelines) survived for approx 5 years in this same use situation.
 
Feb 5, 2012
183
Catalina 1990 Catalina 30 Mark II Harbor Island Yacht Club, Old Hickory Lake, Nashville, TN
You could buy those same Deka's at Sam's Club, as Duracell's, for $179.00 (below was the old price) and save even more...;)
OK, I'm convinced... :)

I haven't bought the batteries yet (was going to buy them tomorrow), but I'm going to heed your advice and stick with wet cell batteries (forgive me if my terminology is wrong).

You guys have mentioned Duracells from Sam's; could you tell me what specific model you would recommend to me?

Last question: I have 1 battery's that's just a year old, and then the other is of unknown age (bought by the previous owner); would it be wrong to just replace the battery that I'm fairly certain is bad, or would it make more sense at this juncture, considering all the trouble I've had, to change out both at the same time?

I do have a 7-volt solar panel coming in a couple of days; I haven't bought any kind of regulator for it though. Does it need to have any kind of power-management device between it and the batteries?

OK, one last question: when using the solar panel, is it okay to charge both banks at the same time, or should I always choose one bank or the other when charging?

Thanks for all the great info; the thought of shelling out $500 after getting so much advice AGAINST it was unsettling, to say the least...

Bob
 

jrowan

.
Mar 5, 2011
1,294
O'Day 35 Severn River, Mobjack Bay, Va.
Glad you're saving your money, but Mainsail will have to answer your technical questions regarding solar charging. I have seen batteries boil from being over charged by solar panels that do not have a proper regulator installed.
 

Bob S

.
Sep 27, 2007
1,774
Beneteau 393 New Bedford, MA
Bob,
I'm guessing your boat is set up as it came from the factory. I suggest you do some reading on Maine's Featured Contributors site and the C34 site Stu linked you to. I bought my boat and launched her in 2008. It came with 2 new group 24's, factory set up. I didn't understand a thing about our systems but I did know I had a hard time starting on Sunday after 2 nights on the hook. That scared me into researching and learning. Stu was a big help as he has for many of us here. If you spend anytime cruising and on a hook I'd suggest you add another battery to your set up. As far as size - you have to see what will fit. If yours is set up like mine I can fit 2 group 31's in the starboard settee without battery boxes. I removed the straps that where screwed to the bottom and glassed them in making the compartment the battery box. I made some brackets to hold the batteries in place so they cannot move. Their orientation is not ideal but you have to live with what you have. If all you do is day sail then I think this would be enough. If you need more power you can parallel 2 to make a larger house bank and add a start/reserve battery next to your hot water heater in the rear quarter birth. I did that because I'm on a mooring and never plug in. There is a lot to learn and all the resources you need are right here on this site. I'm going into my sixth season without a solar panel.
 
Feb 5, 2012
183
Catalina 1990 Catalina 30 Mark II Harbor Island Yacht Club, Old Hickory Lake, Nashville, TN
Bob,
I'm guessing your boat is set up as it came from the factory. I suggest you do some reading on Maine's Featured Contributors site and the C34 site Stu linked you to. I bought my boat and launched her in 2008. It came with 2 new group 24's, factory set up. I didn't understand a thing about our systems but I did know I had a hard time starting on Sunday after 2 nights on the hook. That scared me into researching and learning. Stu was a big help as he has for many of us here. If you spend anytime cruising and on a hook I'd suggest you add another battery to your set up. As far as size - you have to see what will fit. If yours is set up like mine I can fit 2 group 31's in the starboard settee without battery boxes. I removed the straps that where screwed to the bottom and glassed them in making the compartment the battery box. I made some brackets to hold the batteries in place so they cannot move. Their orientation is not ideal but you have to live with what you have. If all you do is day sail then I think this would be enough. If you need more power you can parallel 2 to make a larger house bank and add a start/reserve battery next to your hot water heater in the rear quarter birth. I did that because I'm on a mooring and never plug in. There is a lot to learn and all the resources you need are right here on this site. I'm going into my sixth season without a solar panel.
Well, it already has a 3rd battery, which is in the lazerette; I ended up buying a new flooded battery, did a charge of all 3 batteries, and added a 7-watt solar charger.

I'm on a new dock at our marina, where the power pedestals will be installed in about a week. Rather than leave a charger connected, I'm going to try the solar charger for a while and see how this goes. It's a really small charger, so I don't know whether it really requires a regulator or not, but on the charger panel there's a bit of circuitry that prevents the panel from drawing power back from the batteries when the sun is down.

What I've realized in this process is how common it seems to be for sailboat owners to have battery issues.