Are you ready to trust your battery to take you up in the Air?

[Johann]

Just under 300miles, still for a single engine 2-seater It's a 1hour flight. The airlines are currently 1hr.10min or more.

It’s 188nm from Heathrow to CDG. But the point is it’s not an electric plane. It’s a jet with an electric motor hanging on one wing. Most likely powered by electricity from the jet engines.

The little electric plane in the video couldn’t make that short hop. That being said I agree with kloudie it could be a good deal for a local pattern trainer.

 

[Michael Davis]

It’s a jet with an electric motor hanging on one wing. Most likely powered by electricity from the jet engines.

You're looking at something different then what I was. The concept model looked like a streamline Piper Cherokee and was called a sport plane. At 300 mph it looked like a lot of fun. ( if they ever get it off the ground)

 

[Johann]

You're looking at something different then what I was. The concept model looked like a streamline Piper Cherokee and was called a sport plane. At 300 mph it looked like a lot of fun. ( if they ever get it off the ground)

Your right! Its the ACCEL. Definitely looks like a fun plane... 200 sm range 300+ mph. The literature says the batteries have the highest energy density ever used on an aircraft. Funded by the UK gov, so I’m not sure it’ll ever be affordable for real people...

 

[Michael Davis]

so I’m not sure it’ll ever be affordable for real people..

Yeah, planes are like boats only more so!

 

[Johann]

But energy density is electrics biggest downside IMHO. So if gov funded “moonshot” projects can advance that aspect, I’m all for it. Especially if the brits are the ones paying this time

 

[jssailem]

I thought it was like the Piper Tomahawk that I flew in the 70’s. Neat little plane. Acrobatic. I flew in a barrel roll back then. Never did a loop. They said I’d could fly inverted. Not sure that the engine could handle that inverted flight. The barrel role was un eventful. We made sure we had plenty of airspeed. Same T tail and body design.

 

[Michael Davis]

Not sure that the engine could handle that inverted flight.

Should be OK with fuel injection and a closed oil system but that is something you don't need to worry about with an electric motor.

 

[jssailem]

Yes... Perhaps if I start at a high enough altitude and can build up enough reserve air speed. Not fun if your 3/4 over and it drops out of the roll. Need enough altitude to recover..

 

[Michael Davis]

Altitude and airspeed, all is good

 

[smokey73]

Sorry for the long post.
I alway cringe a little when I think about the widespread use of electric cars or anything else that uses battery technology as a basis for its motive force. On a small scale like a cell phone, great (but then again maybe not if its a large number of small scale item). Litium is not particularly "toxic" per se. The environmental impact of mining (for ore) or extraction from brine poses some serious risks. Read up on it. Imagine the huge demand for Lithium if we were to be even 50% dependent on that technology. If you think Fracking for oil is bad, wait till you hear how they extract Litium from salt brine and get back to me.

Then there is the problem of where the power will come from to charge ALL those Tesla's quickly when you're making a cross country or even cross state drive unless you live in Rhode Island or Vermont, etc. I don't think solar or even wind power will cut the mustard for something like that on a large scale so we are back to nuclear or fossil fuel for the power density to supply the chargers. Maybe you'd favor daming up a few thousand small rivers or a couple hundred big ones to generate more hydro. But wait, there's the snail darter, salmon and countless other critter's to worry about! (no offense snail darter lovers, just using it a well known example)

Then there are the consequences of making us (the US anyway) dependent on some other third world (right now) country for our power. Chili and Bolivia, while not third world, will soon become the Saudi Arabia of Lithium production. I know - recycle, recycle, recycle - but how many of you have thrown away a lithion ion battery instead of driving it down in your fossil fueled car to Lowes to dump in the blue battery recycle bin?

I am all for power diversity and ways to keep things "green" (I often walk out of a store with my arms full of things after telling the checkout person, "no thanks, save a tree."). I'm for as many ways as we can economically and environmentally generate electricity the better. But let us think about the "law of unintended consequences" before we leap too quickly on electric powered vehicles (be it cars or planes). Put my money on a wide variety of energy solutions, including improvements in combustion technology and maybe even a large scale natural gas fueling infrastructure.

I'd tell you a story about Chemical Weapons destruction "neutralization" vs incineration but this post is already too long.
FULL DISCLOSURE: I am a nuclear engineer by trade.

 

[TomY]

I charge the Torqeedo off the house batteries, which are charged by solar panels. The Torqeedo charges either by a 110v AC chord or a 12v chord. 100% solar charged. It does take a while, but that is not an issue. As I said, I can go days on a charge, then plug the battery in when it is convenient. I rarely run the battery down past 50%, but being lithium Ion, that isn't an issue either. No more gasoline stored in the cockpit, no more mixing oil and gas, no more oil in the water from the 2 cycle engine, no more noise. The Torqeedo is very efficient, I think. It has the same amount of power that my 3hp Mercury had.
If you get a chance, try a Torqeedo. You'll like it!

Even if you didn't get a single electron from solar, there's no downside for the rest of us if you use electric propulsion over combustion. Just in less sheen of gasoline in our harbors from leaking outboards and tanks.

Plus you'll get a standing 'air' ovation (no hand contact) from me in a quiet harbor.

 

[smokey73]

TomY, agreed! There are some applications where it makes sense and the Torqeedo is probably one, especially with the gas sheen. I haven't heard one but what does a LPG outboard sound like? Wonder what better sound insulation from the manufacturer (ie "low noise model") might do for that?

Just out of curiosity what does the total "package" batteries and Torqueedo weigh? How much of that is engine and how much is battery? Not knocking it at all, just wondering if it might be a fit to replace my 2hp two stroke Suzuki. I like the Suzuki because of the weight vs the 4 stroke 4hp I had before. How much is a spare battery to swap out or increase range if one wanted to do that? Inquiring minds want to know.

 

[Will Gilmore]

Smokey, it is good to read your post. It is always great to get different branches of knowledge together to offer a varied perspective on things we only think we know. The mining or disposal of toxic/unnaturally concentrated elements in a given industry is one of those hidden issues. The coal and oil industry has wrestled with those very same problems. Time and awareness often bring some relief. I hope battery technology and other power storage technologies can learn to overcome these problems. Then there is the tenacity of economic reliance. Once an industry has matured around a certain resource or process, there is enormous resistance to change, no matter the benefits to the World. Let's hope the newness of electric power comes at a time of heightened sensitivity for these concerns, so there isn't a chance to commit too completely to an undesirable process.
Still, growing pains and poorly chosen paths are to be expected while we develop our technologies.

-Will (Dragonfly)

 

[smokey73]

Will, I agree with you 100%. The issue that really needs to be address is the application where it makes sense and then well thought out transition to more uses as we become more knowledgeable about the consequences. An attack on all fronts using all available energy production techniques is what is needed. Techniques for mining or extraction of lithium from brine need refinement to avoid the consequences of its extraction. Right now I think it takes on the order of 500,000 kg of water (good water, not brine) to extract 1kg of lithium. The economic sources of the brine salts are on areas with very scarce water resources, thereby stealing from Peter to pay Paul. There are other methods possible which can and should be explored and refined like solvent extraction. But then again there is the question of the solvent use (which includes kerosene!) There may even be a possibility of extraction from oil production waste oil. Wouldn't that be a kick in the pants! We just have to make sure we understand and control both the "chicken and the egg" (ie use of Lithium and production of Lithium). We won't ever develop large scale economic, environmentally friendly lithium production until there is really a "very large" demand for Lithium (hence the Chicken and Egg) If we get entrenched in the evaporative brine salt extraction (cheap and from "nimby" sources - not in my back yard) then the advances in extraction will be slowed or stalled absent regulation. But do you think Chili or Bolivia will regulate what could be a "new gold mine" GDP resource for them? By the way NIMBY is a huge problem. Are you willing to see 100s if not thousands of wind turbines setting of the coast of NH (small as it may be). Look at what the big $$$$ people think about putting a wind farm off the coast of New York. What if the best source of Lithium is in your beloved NH on a farm near you?

Its a very complex issue and as I said, we need to use all of the sources that make sense for the intended application. AND be sure and take that little button Lithium Ion Battery to your local recycler. "A journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step." If you store them for a later trip, make sure you isolate the + and - of the pile so you don't go into a dead short situation.

 

[smokey73]

By the way, I don't want to see 10 year old kids from some third world country combing through piles of "recycle" waste to pull out lithium batteries (along with other valuable recycle wastes) and exposed to all kinds of nasty things, nor do I want to see vast amounts of scarce water in parched salt flats diverted to Lithium production, or huge strip mines for ore. But then again I don't want to pay 3 times the price for my CR2030 button battery for my toy, both of which were probably manufactured in China.

And NIMBY is everywhere and in a lot of forms from trying to get rid of a family hog farm that's been held by the same family for 50 years because someone put in a new subdivision next door (all while enjoying a pork chop on the grill) to opposing oil drilling off the coast of South Carolina while driving your Escalade on Hilton Head and not doing anything constructive to stop oil production off the coast of LA or in the Gulf. Think about it and your positions - do you practice NIMBY.

It is a very complex issue and I wish I had the answers, but I don't. I can only do what I can do and decline the plastic or paper bag when I can. Sorry for the RANT but simple solutions are rarely simple.

 

[Maine Sail]

My sister-in-law went from driving a 2011 Prius to a Tesla and her electric bill is costing her more than the gas & maintenance costs did for the Prius. It also gets far less range than Tesla suggests because she lives in the cold North East. She also drove her first Prius over 240k with no repairs other than typical fluids or brakes. She "incorrectly assumed' the Tesla would cost her less but it has been a major maintenance nightmare, full of electrical gremlins, and it drove their electric bill through the roof.

Moving from point A to point B still costs money whether it is stored energy in a battery or dino juice or a dino juice/hybrid...

FWIW we also owned two Prius's and both exceeded 200k with no non-routine issues. My mother-in-law has our old 2007 in Florida and it recently passed 275k and she's done literally nothing to it except for routine maintenance. Cheapest ownership costs of any vehicle we've owned but I certainly did not buy them for their perceived "green-ness".

As for batteries the LiFePO4 batteries on our boat, cells were made in 2009, have been far more reliable, with virtually zero capacity fade, than any lead acid batteries could ever dream of and our cost of ownership, based on cycles & calendar age, has been far less than lead acid.

 

[markwbird]

Totally ready. It is far more reliable than an engine.

 

[smokey73]

I've owned three diesel cars. A 1980 Mercedes 300TD turbo with over 240K miles before it was totaled by a young driver turning in front of me. I also owned a old VW Rabbit diesel with a 20 gal fuel tank (had an auxiliary fuel tank) that got over 54 mpg. I could go well over 1000 miles on a single fill up and did so every 1 1/2 weeks for awhile - talk about range! Match that range at that speed with any hybrid. It had about 300K miles when I got rid of it. I now have a 2009 Mercedes diesel that I average 30.3 mpg city/highway combined and can get up to 40-42 mpg on the highway at 60 mph or so (35 -36 mpg at 75 mph). I can go 700 to 750 miles on the highway with one tank. I doubt a Prius can match that on the highway. I now have about 140,000 on the 2009 and expect to get many more before I retire it. Nothing but routine maintenance on all these cars. Biggest problem is suspension part replacement with that many miles but the engines were never a problem. Just my personal experience. I could run it on biofuel if I had to and maybe even McDonalds French Fry oil with a few adjustments and filtering.

Not knocking the Prius or any other hybrid or all electric car. Its a matter of "application" as I have stated before. Its just that they are not "all that and a bag of chips," at least for me. Give me a good diesel and a stiff tailwind and I'll see you in California from SC and see which one costs the least to run and gets there first.

 

[Will Gilmore]

We've been comparing apples to oranges, Smokie, and now you want to throw a banana into the mix? One thing's for sure, unless your going to also add corn, we've got the makings of a delicious smoothie. maybe just the corn syrup.

-Will (Dragonfly)

 

[Maine Sail]

I've owned three diesel cars. A 1980 Mercedes 300TD turbo with over 240K miles before it was totaled by a young driver turning in front of me.

My wife's summer car is a 100% original (even original paint & glass) Bristol condition 1979 240D with about 250k on her. That car was built when a Mercedes was a true Mercedes and she's incredibly reliable.

Our last newer Mercedes, a 4Matic Wagon, soured us to the newer models as the dealership had in 8 of the 14 months we owned the car and they could not fix it. They never did fix it and it took a good lawyer, lemon law, and a pile o money to finally fix the debacle.

We averaged 44-52 MPG in the Prius (best tank was 55.5) and beyond the routine oil change and transmission fluid change zero non-routine maintenance expenses, not even a failed headlight on either of them. The Prius is a horribly ugly car that gives you no good feelings at all. That said, the damned things are freaking bullet-proof in terms of reliability. We have a number of them in the city being used as taxis with over 400k and still on the original battery.

Give me a good diesel and a stiff tailwind and I'll see you in California from SC and see which one costs the least to run and gets there first.

I can tell you that our old Prius's would beat the pants off our diesel Mercedes in a cross country cost per mile war. I do however wish we had more diesels in the US, I'd own one in a heart beat. Unfortunately I won't touch a Volkswagen/Audi/Porsche product with a 10' pole. We've been there and done that and have the check book maintenance scars to remind us why we will never, ever own one of those vehicles again. Now if Honda or Toyota got into the US compliant diesel game I would beat down the door.