I am getting started on some electric projects on my '88 wing keel. One of which is to replace the fuse panel with the breaker panel from CD. The labels are different for the wires, so I was making sure I had all my ducks in a row before starting. I got my boat this past summer, and never sailed it near dusk so lights never became an issue. Which is good because I never got anything but the cabin lights to work, occasionally. Anyway, I am also putting in a new steaming/deck light, as the original was also missing. In checking the wiring and such, looking at the boat's wiring diagram, I see that there is a fuse switch for bow lights, and for running lights. However it appears looking at the wiring diagram that the stern light comes off of the bow wire. If that is true, what is the running lights? Can anyone tell me if the New Design had a combo deck/steaming light on the mast, or was it just a steaming light? I am confused also because the masthead connector on the diagram says bow light, but the diagram doesn't show it as part of the bow light circuit. Do they mean the deck light part of the steaming light system? Is this to blame on Chinese instructions, or do I just not understand the nomenclature?
Another electrical question
- Thread starter jdub tn
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Really does not matter since you are going to fix it the right way. Bow and stern lights should work on the same circuit. The steaming light should be on its own circuit and switch. The deck light should be on its own circuit ans switch and the anchor light should be on its own circuit and switch. So four switches. The grounds for anchor, deck and steaming light can be shared. That means for the mast you need 4 wires, anchor +, deck +, steaming + and a common ground
Good luck
Good luck
again, the original panel has a switch for running, deck light, bow, anchor, and cabin. the wiring diagram looks like the bow and stern light come off of the same switch. There is nothing on the diagram indicating a connection to the running light switch. The new panel shows cabin, running, anchor, steaming and deck (plus 3 accessory, the original has one, not germaine to the question). So is there anyone here with a new design who knows what the "running" on the original panel is connected to if there is also a connection to the bow light? My only thought is that the diagram, where it shows the 4-pin connection to the deck connector, lists the wire for the bow, which may be the deck light (hence my comment on Chinese instructions)
I always thought "Running" referred to the bow red/green light and the stern white light. They always operate together. They are also referred to as navigational lights. The red/green and white lights are often found on the bow and stern, but may be combined into one light on the masthead. The steaming light is located on the forward part of the mast and operates separately from the deck light, although they may be combined into one mount on the mast. The anchor light is an all around white light usually mounted on the masthead. It operates separately from all the other lights.
When sailing at night, only the red/green and white nav lights are used. If the engine is used, even with the sails up, the steaming light is used also.
Since you are setting up your own control panel, you may label the switches any way you prefer. It sounds like your old panel referred to the steaming light as the "running" light. Confusing, but in a way it makes sense, because the engine is "running" when the steaming light is on.
When sailing at night, only the red/green and white nav lights are used. If the engine is used, even with the sails up, the steaming light is used also.
Since you are setting up your own control panel, you may label the switches any way you prefer. It sounds like your old panel referred to the steaming light as the "running" light. Confusing, but in a way it makes sense, because the engine is "running" when the steaming light is on.
[QUOTE="jdub tn, post: ... or do I just not understand the nomenclature?[/QUOTE]
+1 to Tom J. Why not just one night go on the boat and turn the switches on one at a time and see what comes on? And/or trace the wires. In any case, make a schematic of it all- one verified, that is.
+1 to Tom J. Why not just one night go on the boat and turn the switches on one at a time and see what comes on? And/or trace the wires. In any case, make a schematic of it all- one verified, that is.
Well, that's part of the problem, nothing was working, which is why I thought to replace the panel. When I turn on the main switch, I sometimes get the light on the panel to come on, sometimes not. As I said earlier, I didn't have lights anywhere except occasionally in the cabin. When flipping the power on, sometimes the light would come on some time later. when I first got the boat and had no power, I cleaned all the electrical connections on the panel, and the inside lights. That got the panel to power up and 2 of the 3 lights working. So my next step, I thought, was the panel itself. Probably the lights outside are corroded beyond repair but hopefully the wires will be ok. In looking at the steaming/deck light wires, they look pretty bad and I'm wondering if replacing isn't the best option at this point. I was hoping to get some responses from C-22 owners, specific to the question.
I have an 87 wing keel and I have yet to really dig into the electrical. In the archives there is a lot of info on this. On my boat the running light switch powers the bow and stern lights as well as the night time lights on the compass and speed log. On the mast the steaming light is both a steaming and deck light combo that I believe is on its own switch but mine is not currently operational so I can't confirm that. Finally the anchor light on the mast head should be on its own switch. Before blaming the panel I would check all the wires for continuity. Disconnect your battery, use a piece of wire and short out one end of the longer runs such as at the light or at the panel and test to make sure the wires are still in good shape with your volt meter. Many times I have seen the wires fail in the deck usually near the mast step and cause a high resistance which will drain the battery and give low voltage to the lights. Before investing In the new panel, which might be a good upgrade, I would verify all lights and fixtures work even if I had to hot-wire them to the battery temporarily so that I could plan my electrical work according to my budget. Nothing worse than replacing the panel and then finding out you still need to re-wire the boat if you weren't planning on it. However this is just my onion and others have much more experience with this.
It sounds like you already got your answers. It's not clear what you are confused about. Since you have a new panel and the nomenclature on the new panel is clear, why not just dismiss the old diagram and make yourself a new diagram that matches the nomenclature on your new panel? Bill has it exactly right, and Tom's theoretical explanation for the use of the term "running light" on your old panel sounds plausible (to me, anyway 
).
It does sound like there is some confusion between your diagram and your old panel. What is the nomenclature on your panel and what lights are connected to the fuses for each switch? You've described the "bow lights" and "running lights" from the old panel but then the rest of your description talks about a "diagram", so you don't really describe how your boat is wired (and perhaps if your deck light and steaming light is missing, you have not been able trace these wires). You've also not mentioned your anchor light.
My suggestion is to forget the past and wire your lights in accordance with your new panel and as Bill describes. The wiring in the mast ( for anchor, steaming and deck lights) can be accomplished with a 4-pin connector at the terminal between the deck and the bottom of the mast. Use all new tinned, stranded wire for the mast wiring. If your running lights (bow and stern) are operating, I would probably leave well enough alone, if it is really difficult to replace these wires. If you can pull them without too much effort, then why not replace that wiring as well? That's your call. edit: check that, you said they don't work - you probably should replace wiring if you can't verify continuity. I don't really understand what you mean when you say on the diagram the "stern light comes off the bow wire". I would bring the wiring for the bow and stern lights separately back to the panel (rather than splicing positive leads in the wiring run) for connection to the breaker for "running lights".
LakeShark is right about the need to verify continuity of the wiring. While the new panel is a worthwhile upgrade, the source of your electrical problems is not likely to be the old panel. The real problems are more likely to occur in the wiring, especially if the wiring has been modified over the years by previous owners.
).It does sound like there is some confusion between your diagram and your old panel. What is the nomenclature on your panel and what lights are connected to the fuses for each switch? You've described the "bow lights" and "running lights" from the old panel but then the rest of your description talks about a "diagram", so you don't really describe how your boat is wired (and perhaps if your deck light and steaming light is missing, you have not been able trace these wires). You've also not mentioned your anchor light.
My suggestion is to forget the past and wire your lights in accordance with your new panel and as Bill describes. The wiring in the mast ( for anchor, steaming and deck lights) can be accomplished with a 4-pin connector at the terminal between the deck and the bottom of the mast. Use all new tinned, stranded wire for the mast wiring. If your running lights (bow and stern) are operating, I would probably leave well enough alone, if it is really difficult to replace these wires. If you can pull them without too much effort, then why not replace that wiring as well? That's your call. edit: check that, you said they don't work - you probably should replace wiring if you can't verify continuity. I don't really understand what you mean when you say on the diagram the "stern light comes off the bow wire". I would bring the wiring for the bow and stern lights separately back to the panel (rather than splicing positive leads in the wiring run) for connection to the breaker for "running lights".
LakeShark is right about the need to verify continuity of the wiring. While the new panel is a worthwhile upgrade, the source of your electrical problems is not likely to be the old panel. The real problems are more likely to occur in the wiring, especially if the wiring has been modified over the years by previous owners.
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Thank you for the responses. I will start with a continuity check and go from there. The boat only had one owner, and it lived in the desert West. As he was an engineer I am surprised he let the electric system lapse.
If you are adding a foredeck light as a combo with your steaming light you'll have to check if you have enough hot lines through the cabin overhead. These wires are laminated into the core and there used to be just a hot and a ground. Not sure if Catalina upgraded this on C22's post 86 models with more (3 or 4 wires), but my 82 only had 2. The original intent was only for a steaming light since boats under 27 feet do not require and all-round white anchor light when anchored in a designated anchorage. If you want to add additional hots there is no way to snake new wires through the cabin core. I added a 4 strand wire that goes down my compression post and through the bottom starboard corner of the bulkhead plywood, then goes back in under the dinette on the fwd side. This gives me a hot for steaming, anchor, deck light, and common ground.
BTW, my take on the above naming of lights; I guess people get the two confused but my take (based on driving Navy ships) is that the red/green (if on bow or on sides, makes no diff) plus your stern light are the 'running lights', while the fwd facing white light on your mast is the 'steaming light' (vessel operating at night under power). I can see where the confusion happens, sailors might call the steaming light a 'running light' when under power rather than sail and then call the bow/stern lights just 'nav lights'.
BTW, my take on the above naming of lights; I guess people get the two confused but my take (based on driving Navy ships) is that the red/green (if on bow or on sides, makes no diff) plus your stern light are the 'running lights', while the fwd facing white light on your mast is the 'steaming light' (vessel operating at night under power). I can see where the confusion happens, sailors might call the steaming light a 'running light' when under power rather than sail and then call the bow/stern lights just 'nav lights'.
You've got a lot of good information above. One thing, you mentioned nothing was working, except maybe the cabin lights. Before replacing a bunch of things, start back at ground wire. History says this will be your initial problem. Its Ok to replace the panel but you need to start from the beginning and I've seen a lot of issues solved by ensuring that you actually have a good connection to ground. Old boats have old wiring and old connections. Start at the ground connection and you may be surprised to see things start to work.
Oh and as one final recommendation, search the archives for posts from Mainsail. No offense to the forum but, he knows more about DC wiring than the rest of us combined.
Have fun,
Oh and as one final recommendation, search the archives for posts from Mainsail. No offense to the forum but, he knows more about DC wiring than the rest of us combined.
Have fun,
Thank you very much on the ground wire suggestion, as well as the search suggestion. Thanks to the others too for their kind participation.
Clouddiver, the new design has a 4 wire to the mast. I agree about the naming. To me, running lights are bow and stern lights, yet there is a switch for both a bow light and a running light. since I don't have either working, I have no idea which is which, so when connecting to the new panel, I don't know where to connect them. Hopefully I can isolate the problem (I thought it odd that after switching the panel on, the light for the panel wouldn't come on. But after either jiggling the service switch, or turning on and off a few switches, it would come on. Alas, now the little bulb has come unglued and fallen out, so no light to tell me if there is power to the panel.
Clouddiver, the new design has a 4 wire to the mast. I agree about the naming. To me, running lights are bow and stern lights, yet there is a switch for both a bow light and a running light. since I don't have either working, I have no idea which is which, so when connecting to the new panel, I don't know where to connect them. Hopefully I can isolate the problem (I thought it odd that after switching the panel on, the light for the panel wouldn't come on. But after either jiggling the service switch, or turning on and off a few switches, it would come on. Alas, now the little bulb has come unglued and fallen out, so no light to tell me if there is power to the panel.
Yes, the panel names can be confusing. The bow light is the steaming light on the mast at the spreaders, deck light shines down on the deck, running lights are the red and green on the bow, and the white light on the stern, and of course, anchor light is the white light on top of the mast.
Here is the wiring schematic for the new design C-22, it's really quite simple, hope it helps.
Don
Here is the wiring schematic for the new design C-22, it's really quite simple, hope it helps.
Don
Thanks Don. I had the schematic, but the explanation of which light is connected to which switch is a big help. Interesting comment above about the Ground. The instructions from CD say that the old panel ground is basically connected to all the negative wires in a primitive bus. So that comment about a loose ground being the source of the problem may be a winner.
One other thing of note in the CD directions is it instructed to run a new wire for the negative to the battery from the new negative bus. One, I don't see why there is a need to reinvent the wheel. If the old wire is sufficiently long and appears in good enough shape, why would I run a new one? The kit came with about 2 feet of new wire of the gauge for a battery to panel connection, which given that the kit is specific to this boat, is obviously not intended to suffice for anything but a splice, which I'd prefer not to do.
One other thing of note in the CD directions is it instructed to run a new wire for the negative to the battery from the new negative bus. One, I don't see why there is a need to reinvent the wheel. If the old wire is sufficiently long and appears in good enough shape, why would I run a new one? The kit came with about 2 feet of new wire of the gauge for a battery to panel connection, which given that the kit is specific to this boat, is obviously not intended to suffice for anything but a splice, which I'd prefer not to do.
Now I see why the diagram and the schematic is confusing! It shows bow lights at 2 locations, the bow and on the mast.
It seems that all you would need to do is change Bow LT on the panel and at the mastlight connector diagram to "Steaming LT" and change the boat diagram to indicate "Running LT" at the bow of the boat. It's weird that this schematic has never been modified to be less confusing!
It seems that all you would need to do is change Bow LT on the panel and at the mastlight connector diagram to "Steaming LT" and change the boat diagram to indicate "Running LT" at the bow of the boat. It's weird that this schematic has never been modified to be less confusing!
It's the factory schematic from probably 30 years ago, no money in correcting it now, they quit making the boat 23 years ago. But the same circuit names are used on our MK-II version.
Don