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An Acceptable Repair or Wimping Out?

Discussion in 'Ask All Sailors' started by rardiH36, Oct 5, 2017. Add this thread to a FAQ

  1. JamesG161

    JamesG161

    Joined Feb 14, 2014
    1,800 posts, 247 likes
    Hunter 430
    US Waveland, MS
    Yes!

    But not just those...
    Depending on what are called "combustion limits", static electricity can cause a ignition. Watch what Diesel/Gasoline delivery truckers do... Clamp on a Grounding wired to reduce static sparks.
    Jim...
     


  2. Doug4bass

    Doug4bass

    Joined Jun 9, 2004
    463 posts, 25 likes
    Catalina 385
    US Marquette. Mi
    TWA 800
     


  3. justsomeguy

    justsomeguy

    Joined Feb 20, 2011
    5,569 posts, 496 likes
    MacGregor, Island Packet 35
    US Tucson, AZ/San Carlos, MX
    Well there's a rabbit-hole one could get lost in. :biggrin:
     


  4. jviss

    jviss

    Joined Feb 5, 2004
    1,811 posts, 102 likes
    Tartan 3800
    US Westborough Westport, MA
    That has not been my experience. I've noted that the vapors that inhabit the top of the container ignite immediately when flame is introduced. True, the liquid gasoline won't light, but liquid gasoline absent the vapors on top is a condition unknown to me.

    Gasoline is flammable, while diesel isn't.
    http://drchemical.com.au/the-chemistry-of-fuel-petrol-vs-diesel-2

    So, there's my reference. Do you have a reference, or perhaps experimental results, to back up your assertion?

    My comments were based on my experience with boats that diesel is a much more inherently safe fuel than gasoline, and that under any atmospheric conditions we experience at sea level is not only much less likely to combust, it is downright difficult to get it to combust. Nearly the opposite can be said of gasoline. Gas in boats requires blowers, spark arrestors, etc. Diesel doesn't.

    I see now that in a confined space, e.g., a fuel tank, with a cutting tool that is applying high heat, such as a torch r saw, one might get a diesel tank to explode. Point taken. But gas and diesel are hardly equivalent in this regard.
     


  5. jviss

    jviss

    Joined Feb 5, 2004
    1,811 posts, 102 likes
    Tartan 3800
    US Westborough Westport, MA
    No, it won't. Watch this:
     


  6. JamesG161

    JamesG161

    Joined Feb 14, 2014
    1,800 posts, 247 likes
    Hunter 430
    US Waveland, MS
    Yes it will. ;)

    My idiot friend did it. I told him, it is the vapors. [ a non-believer ]

    So he took a liquid full coffee can and snapped on the freshness lid. No vapors on liquid top.
    I stood wayyyyy back, hit lit a match, quickly opened the snap on lids, tossed the match on top of the Gasoline and....

    Flame went out and no Ambulance needed. [before videos]:kick:

    Check my link in my post #41 for the science.

    Jim...

    PS: I have never seen a atomic bomb explosion, but as a scientist, I believe A-bombs work.
     


  7. jviss

    jviss

    Joined Feb 5, 2004
    1,811 posts, 102 likes
    Tartan 3800
    US Westborough Westport, MA
    We weren't talking about 'quickly opening the snap on lid and tossing in a match before the vapors could appear.' If you must win an argument that way, then O.K., you got it!

    But in real-world situation, ...let's say we change your experiment to just a couple of buckets, one half full of diesel, one of gasoline; go have a beer. Come back and start tossing matches. Report back.
     


  8. jviss

    jviss

    Joined Feb 5, 2004
    1,811 posts, 102 likes
    Tartan 3800
    US Westborough Westport, MA
    I just want to point out that James is correct in this assertion, in the special case of making sure there are no gasoline vapors on top of the liquid gasoline - a condition that does not occur naturally, at standard temperature and pressure, unless one has taken special precaution and implemented special procedures to make sure there are no vapors. And, having taken these precautions, it's perhaps important to note that this condition will not persist, and will likely cease to persist with seconds of having removed the special precautions. So. much like gasoline not igniting in an oxygen-free environment, it won't ignite under these conditions.

    [This is meant to be humorous.]
     


    Last edited: Oct 7, 2017
  9. JamesG161

    JamesG161

    Joined Feb 14, 2014
    1,800 posts, 247 likes
    Hunter 430
    US Waveland, MS
    My chemistry professor told me that with known science, not much left to debate.

    BTW I never argue on SBO, but I will point out differences, when it is "opinions" only once, but that is just me.:liar:

    Take care, Nate is approaching me now.:(
    Jim..
     


  10. jviss

    jviss

    Joined Feb 5, 2004
    1,811 posts, 102 likes
    Tartan 3800
    US Westborough Westport, MA
    Good luck with the storm.
     


  11. MitchM

    MitchM

    Joined Jan 20, 2005
    465 posts, 34 likes
    Nauticat 321 pilothouse 32
    US Erie PA
    Diesel fuel has a lower explosive limit of 0.6 , an upper explosive limit of 7.5 , and a flash point of 62 °C (143 °F). so every body's right.....
     


  12. rardiH36

    rardiH36

    Joined Jun 21, 2007
    2,029 posts, 30 likes
    Hunter Cherubini 36_80-82
    US San Francisco Bay's "Hurricane Glitch"
    Jibes:

    Appreciate your observations. And I've given that some thought. If I elect to decommission-but-not-remove the old tank which is on the port side ...(or even if I do remove it) ... The location of the new tank will be into a currently vacant area exactly opposite on the starboard side. The fore/aft balance therefore isn't affected. Into the equation: My two heavy group 27 batteries and an emergency start battery are located just adjacent to the existing tank on the port side. + Also the galley is on the port side. = My boat always had a noticeable port list. Installing the new diesel tank starboard might actually be a positive "mod" to the boat. There's a silver lining here!
     


  13. Gunni

    Gunni

    Joined Mar 16, 2010
    4,350 posts, 565 likes
    Beneteau 411 Oceanis
    US Annapolis
    The CO2 method of tank demo is tried and true. In addition to fuel, tanks accumulate sediment and corrosion scale. No matter how much you attempt to clean the tank there is still a probability that residual sediment and scale will retain fuel and gas it back off as you go about cutting the tank up. By adding dry ice you introduce an inert gas generator which gives you a window of time to cut the tank. And as someone else said you don’t generate a waste product requiring treatment - oily water. Even with this method, compliance with industry standards would have the demo contractor moniting the tank for explosive gas limits. In one fatality that I am aware of the cutter took a break for lunch and when he came back the CO2 had disappated, volatile vapors had reestablished and he was killed the instant he began cutting again.
     


  14. jviss

    jviss

    Joined Feb 5, 2004
    1,811 posts, 102 likes
    Tartan 3800
    US Westborough Westport, MA
    Wow. I am now educated on this topic! Was it a diesel tank, or gas? What kind of cutting tool?
     


  15. Gunni

    Gunni

    Joined Mar 16, 2010
    4,350 posts, 565 likes
    Beneteau 411 Oceanis
    US Annapolis
    Waste oil, nibler
     


  16. jviss

    jviss

    Joined Feb 5, 2004
    1,811 posts, 102 likes
    Tartan 3800
    US Westborough Westport, MA
    Interesting. I would not have guessed so. Is a nibbler considered a "hot tool?"
     


  17. JimInPB

    JimInPB

    Joined Aug 22, 2017
    130 posts, 16 likes
    Hunter 212 & 170
    us Florida West Palm Beach
    A few years ago, I recommissioned an old gas tank that was in a used boat that I had bought. I pulled the sender, & cleaned out as much as I could. I then put in 5 gallons of high ethanol content gas & recycled it through a polisher for about a week, to wash out the the tank with fuel. I changed filters on the polisher probably twice the first day & then every other day after that. After a week, the fuel ran clean & got re-purposed as lawn mower gas. For the next year or two, I still got small accumulations of crud in the Racor on that boat, which I emptied every 3-6 months. That service interval has now gone to once per year. Things are finally starting to look clean for real inside that tank.

    Yes, the residue & crud in the fuel tank takes a lot longer to fully clean out than most people would think possible. Soap & water does not get the job fully done. Purple power cleaner does not get the job fully done. Simple Green does not get the job fully done.
     



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