Made it out to lake michigan, twice, this weekend

[tipsyravensailing]

Heya all! Made it out to lake mich this weekend and had a blast.

i learned some things about the boat too, and one thing in particular i got questions about

so there's day one had some trouble getting out there but i made it work. any tighter to the wind and i was having serious problems. it was very frustrating to say the least. but we made it work and went swimming hove to and everyone had a good time. coming back though?

i wouldn't believe it either. (and yes i know a screw is missing, my drill battery died just as i was finishing). but seriously... 7.1 kn. we saw 12 kn of wind. heeled over enough to make the gf panic. but i put her on the tiller and gave her something to keep her mind busy while working the sheets. all in all fantastic. water right up to the rub rail. might have warranted reefing but i felt safe enough.

so... question one. we tried to come into harbor, so going with the wind from a port close hauled to port beam and the boat went... haywire. i dunno. she ended up letting go of the tiller and the boat settled out, turnnig hard into the wind. i'm still unsure how it went wrong. thankfully lots of room to make whatever mistake it was but it is frustrating to try to reconcile what the heck happened. we were easily pulling 6+ kn at the time and heeled pretty hard... i thought going wit hthe wind would relax us, not damn near throw people over. ideas?

anyway, we went out again the next day with my dad and gf and we had an even better time. wind coming out of the north west so we put it on a close hauled and sailed out a ways, hove to and went swimming again. sailing it back was easy as pie too. lot less wind ...

but still happy with what we did with it.

on the second trip out we're staring at the mainsail getting frustrated with its shape and i realize... the topping lift is preventing the boom from coming down. DOH! i forgot every time to take it off. but... when i do, the damn boom lays right down in the cock pit and is a disaster zone. lol. so i think i'm gonna rig up a pulley on the end of the lift and use an open cleat on the boom to make a topping lift doodad per some pics i saw. anyways. we let that thing out and managed to wrangle it while getting the sail up and i was SOOOO much happier about my down wind sailing. very very smooth. sail looked and based on my greenhorn knowledge performed great. pretty happy with it.

(she's sitting on her perserver)

dad and i talking about tiller tamers.

anyway. now time to figure out why i had the haywire when coming about with the wind and how best to solve my topping lift problem.

Thanks for reading!

https://www.facebook.com/tipsyravensailing/

 

[dlochner]

so... question one. we tried to come into harbor, so going with the wind from a port close hauled to port beam and the boat went... haywire. i dunno. she ended up letting go of the tiller and the boat settled out, turnnig hard into the wind. i'm still unsure how it went wrong. thankfully lots of room to make whatever mistake it was but it is frustrating to try to reconcile what the heck happened. we were easily pulling 6+ kn at the time and heeled pretty hard... i thought going wit hthe wind would relax us, not damn near throw people over. ideas?

The short answer is that you were overpowered. If you are over more than about 20 degrees, you are heeled over too far and moving sideways as well as forward. When your gf let go of the tiller the boat did exactly what is should have down, turned sharply into the wind. As the boat turns, it will heel more before coming up right and luffing into the wind. Just like in a car, when you make a fast sharp turn, the car leans hard towards the outside of the curve.

All kinds of things can cause an abrupt wind shift. If you were entering the harbor, a lighthouse can really disrupt the wind. There will be a big wind shadow with faster winds on either side of the shadow. Entering the shadow will cause the boat to heel sharply, come upright in the shadow, and heel sharply as the boat leaves the shadow. Buildings, break walls, trees, and hills can cause similar phenomena.

You have an older boat with older, probably worn out sails. As sails get older they stretch and the draft gets larger and moves aft. This will cause excessive heel. Ease the mainsheet or reef to keep the boat upright. In puffy conditions play the mainsheet as the wind speed and directions vary.

Congratulate your gf for knowing exactly what to do when things got a little screwy. She'll appreciate it.

 

[tipsyravensailing]

i've already shared your words with her. letting go was obviously the right thing to do. my furstration was ending up in a spot where it had to happen. 12 kn close hauled apparently warrants a reef i thought 15 was the magic number. i also felt fine on the heel we were on... it wasn't till we turned that i got surprised.

If we were holding the right course and not planning a turn soon would the fact we were heeled over like that be alright?

 

[tipsyravensailing]

oh, i was also observing back loading of hte main sail from the head, you could see the draft on the wrong side of the main near the mast. i am guessing this means i need a pole for the head sail, but i'm only finding ones that are worth more than the boat. i'm tempted to fabricate my own. but i'm probably looking for the wrong thing to begin with. i was under the impression it is called a whisker pole. i have a ring on the frnt of the mast to hold such a thing already, fwiw.

 

[jssailem]

Mr Engineer. Please explain the terminology “Haywire “. I am not understanding.

You stated the boat was “close hauled” port side. Wind following. Port beam.

“Close hauled” is used to identify sails set (fully drawn tight) with the boat going up wind somewhere between 38 and 55 degrees into the direction of the wind.
“Wind on Port Beam” indicates the wind is 90 degrees to the boats longitudinal direction.

Please help clarify the boats conditions at the time of “haywire” activity.

 

[dlochner]

12 kn close hauled apparently warrants a reef i thought 15 was the magic number. i also felt fine on the heel we were on... it wasn't till we turned that i got surprised.

Every boat is a little different. With a brand new main and a brand new jib, you might be able to get to 20 knots of wind before reefing. Also depends on the point of sail, you can reef later the more down wind you sail. It is the apparent wind, not the true wind that is the issue. With older blown out sails, it may be necessary to reef sooner, because the sail develops too much power in the wrong direction.

i was also observing back loading of hte main sail from the head

This is not uncommon in boats of this vintage. The luff of the mainsail doesn't do much but keep the leach from separating from the mast. Again the older sail will also be an issue because you can not trim it flat enough. Also play with the jib, changing the jib trim can affect how big the bubble is. Reefing the jib will also help reduce the size of the bubble.

i am guessing this means i need a pole for the head sail, but i'm only finding ones that are worth more than the boat. i'm tempted to fabricate my own. but i'm probably looking for the wrong thing to begin with. i was under the impression it is called a whisker pole.

Whisker poles are used for down wind sailing to project the jib out and hold it there so it doesn't collapse. They are nice, but I've never owned one in 30+ years. The poles are most useful for sailing longer distances off the wind or when racing in a non-spinnaker fleet. Otherwise, I think they are more trouble than their worth.

 

[jssailem]

@tipsyravensailing use common language (not sailing lingo) to identify the conditions on the boat at the time of the event.

We can work on the data and help us sailors identify the words you will want to use.

Otherwise we are just making SWAG responses. Many that may be correct or not.

 

[tipsyravensailing]

ok, sailing into the wind, all sheets as tight as i could make them, leaned over at least 20 degrees (didn't have the screen up that tells me) and we turn towards the harbor, letting out the sheets, but not quickly enough maybe, and as i recollect the boat leaned over even harder, enough to make a small bit of panic, prompting the release of tiller. boat turns away from the harbor, into the wind, tacks accross it, and we end up facing back the way we were coming from. pull in hte head and try again and its smoother.

Wind was over the port side the entire time up until tiller release.

better? or do you want me to snap it all to sailing terms?

sailing close hauled port tack, 12kn and a 20+ degree heel, veer away from wind by about 30 degrees to about a beam reach, releasing sheets, boat heels over hard, tiller release, boat tacks and starts running down wind, sails luffing and levels out. reef in the head by furler leaving 20% out (mostly cause it wound up on the furler so tight there was not enough line in the drum to furl it more) and come about with a jybe and bring it in to about a nm out, start motor, flake main and return under power at about 3kn.

i get it all right?

 

[tipsyravensailing]

i think the big take away here is i shouldn't have had as much headsail out

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Hello tipsy!

You don't need a whisker pole yet. Do some more sailing to figure more of it out first. It's not a necessity, yet.
I had a little bit of a hard time figuring out your difficulties but here goes:
When you were coming back in to harbor on that long leg heading north, you were already on a port beam reach. As you turned toward the harbor, the wind came directly astern and you gybed. If this was unexpected, and caused the boat to go "haywire", it's because you probably weren't aware of the wind direction. Based on your tacks heading out, it appears that the wind was pretty much due west, maybe just a bit from the south. If it felt like the wind was coming more from the north (on your nose) on your beam reach, it is because "apparent wind" moves way forward, especially as you are reaching at 7 knots! As you turn downwind, you will momentarily feel much more powered-up and it is necessary to be careful about avoiding an unexpected gybe.

You need to be much more careful when you turn downwind. An unexpected gybe is dangerous and can get somebody hurt. It's pretty scary, for sure, as we all know, because we have all done it! Your course track makes it look like you gybed over for sure. Perhaps after she dropped the tiller and you got yourself sorted, you were on a southeast bearing on a stbd reach as you headed for the harbor mouth. Then it looks like you were dead downwind going through the inlet. Did you have sails down and motor in at the time?

You make it sound like you released the topping lift before you raised the main sail. If that is the case, then of course the boom would drop into the cockpit until after you managed to raise the sail. Release the topping lift only after the main sail is fully raised, then you shouldn't have that problem. It never hurts to reef early. Sailing "on your feet" (flatter) will help anyway, particularly in Lake Michigan waves.

Your heading sailing out has some very flat angles against the wind. You should be able to do better, but if you had waves beating directly against you, then some difficulty should be anticipated. You will need to work on your sail trim in "close-hauled" conditions to make better headway. If you haven't already, purchase Don's book and charts from the store on this site to help you with sail trim. It will be invaluable.

Sounds like success with just a few hiccups so far! Good luck and continue having fun!

 

[tipsyravensailing]

thanks scott! i know that the wind shifted a bit on us, from the west to the north west. we were sailing into that coming back.

whne i had her pull the tiller to her, to come into shore, the boat laid over hard. hard enough that stowed gear in the shelves flew out

when she let go, the boat turned back to port hard, leveling off and then crossed the wind and kept going till the wind was behind

whats really frustrating is my open cpn wasn't tracking, so this post mortem is academic at best

And you can bet your boat we're going back out. we're already talking about a day trip down to south haven for next weekend... and maybe an over nighter before the end of season.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

ok, sailing into the wind, all sheets as tight as i could make them, leaned over at least 20 degrees (didn't have the screen up that tells me) and we turn towards the harbor, letting out the sheets, but not quickly enough maybe, and as i recollect the boat leaned over even harder, enough to make a small bit of panic, prompting the release of tiller. boat turns away from the harbor, into the wind, tacks accross it, and we end up facing back the way we were coming from. pull in hte head and try again and its smoother.

Wind was over the port side the entire time up until tiller release.

Your tacks out bound make it look like the wind was West by Southwest or just West. Is that right? If so, then your last long leg toward the harbor would not be close-hauled, but rather a reach. IF you had sails in tight, you may have been over-sheeted. It sounds like you were reaching pretty fast at 7 knots, so apparent wind should feel more from the north as I said before. It does not surprise me that you were surprised by heeling and sudden power as you turned more downwind and let sail out. It sounds like you dropped the tiller quickly enough to avoid an unexpected gybe, but the sudden rounding up (and thru the wind) caused you to change direction and put the wind on your stbd side as you headed southeast toward the harbor mouth.

BTW, I've never been a fan of simply dropping the tiller. In my mind, that is a panic move and it loses control. There is nothing wrong with putting the tiller hard over to luff the sail, but maintain control by doing it purposefully by holding onto the tiller and make sure you aren't letting the waves and wind throw the boat around.

 

[tipsyravensailing]

right - i think its the quandry with the apparent vs true wind thats causing my mind to have trouble wrapping around what happened and why.

but your last post sums it up pretty good.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

thanks scott! i know that the wind shifted a bit on us, from the west to the north west. we were sailing into that coming back.

I think you may have been mis-interpreting this wind "shift" Learn the difference between true wind and apparent wind. The forward motion of your boat makes the apparent wind further forward than the true wind. That could be why you were interpreting a wind "shift" to the north. The way that I am reading your tracks, your heading was a beam reach, not close hauled. That is the fastest point of sail, and it is not surprising that it moved the apparent wind to the northwest to some degree, perhaps enough to fool you.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

right - i think its the quandry with the apparent vs true wind thats causing my mind to have trouble wrapping around what happened and why.

but your last post sums it up pretty good.

Nothing like sailing on Lake Michigan, eh! Sounds fantastic! Wind on an open body of water is far steadier and less fickle. I think you are fortunate to be on the east side of the lake … BY FAR the better side for numerous reasons! You will get the hang of it very quickly!

 

[Charlie Jones s/v Tehani]

Flying into Wisc tomorrow- will be in Madison for a wedding. Friends keep a boat on the lake- hope we gt chance to get out

 

[jssailem]

Thank you @tipsyravensailing. I know dumb exercise. But sometimes as we state the conditions we find solutions.

I do not think you gibed. You did come up into the wind aggressively, (which affirms a weather helm). Being closed hauled (main and jib in tight) then adjusting the track of the boat with the tiller (heading towards the harbor), with out corresponding easing of the main and the jib, will move the center of force on the main sail aft (the jib gets a bit of cover by the main in this condition so the force on the main is more dominant). This will show it self to you as increasing heel. When the tiller is released (let go) the boat will react to this unbalance and turn up into the wind. If the turn is uncontrolled the boat (your is 27 feet and a bit like a sports car) will continue with it's momentum through the wind and onto the opposite tack.

Procedure... Ease the main, ease the jib turn towards the harbor. If feeling over powered, Roll up some of the jib, or let it out till it luffs then roll it up. Note that as you turn away from the wind the Main changes a bit from a foil providing lift to a parachute catching the wind and driving the boat forward. This is especially true as the wind moves it's angle aft. The change in angle is being controlled by the helm.

Helm is important here. Change the "Let go of the tiller" to Ease the Tiller. Then you are still in control and can prevent the boat from changing tack while you adjust the sails in your new direction.

 

[Jackdaw]

You need someone to come sail with you!

Honestly, you don't know what you don't know, and you also have a hard time explain what went right vs wrong when you don't know the difference! This is a not a knock - everyone starts here; its a tip to jump start your sailing, and your GF's enjoyment. I can tell you she probably will not put up with getting the crap scared out of her too often. Looking at the plot, your tacking angles are terrible. That's probably mostly due to sail trim, and you not knowing how to sail well upwind. Having someone come out with you for a day will pay huge dividends.

 

[tipsyravensailing]

yeah... i'd love that. closest i got is the guy who owns the tartan 44 next to me but he doesn't have time for my shenanigans he races to the mac every year tho and clearly knows his stuff.

In the long run i'd love someone to shake it out with me, help me fix any oddities with how i have it rigged, and show me, in the sports car analogy, how to use the clutch right. i'm coming up bupkis though on that. I'll have cameras on the boat next sail and will share everything with it and maybe i can hit in the middle with some help from the forums here.

i am lining up on having natuiced figured out - i've finished the clinics for skipper there and i just need practical time. push comes to shove i'll have natuiced send someone out with the power to assess me and call that my ride along

i've gone to dock parties and social mixers here but ... i'm the smallest boat on the dock and no one seems inclined to do even a a short sail out with me and back. best i've goten is people looking at how my outhaul was rigged, from the dock.

but i'm not going to let the lack of friendly stop me from going. too much damn money wrapped up in this to sit and look at it bang against the dock from the wake of everyone else goin out.

 

[Jackdaw]

I get all that. Makes sense. How about:

https://asa.com/schools/michigan/gt-sailing-school/

As you note, you really need the practical.