New Electronics - Is this about right?

[rpwillia]

I have a friend who had a great time at the Annapolis boat show and bought new radar, chart plotter, autopilot and all new instruments (wind, depth and speed). He called me up and told me what he did, asked for help and today we got together and looked it over. The radar and chart plotter combo is super sweet as the radar returns are superimposed on the chart. He is going to use traditional wind, speed and depth instruments along with the autopilot and the chart plotter in a single enclosure on the helm. I am a bit new to the nmea2000/SeatalkNG, but it seems pretty sweet. Have I about got it? Is there a better way?
The wind, speed and depth instruments are compatible with his old stuff so for the moment we may just leave the new ones in place and just use the new instruments (also means we do not have to run new wires). Next time we meet up will be at his boat to verify the existing wires and connections and start removing stuff like the burned out dedicated radar station and Chartplotter down below as well as looking for where to put the new autopilot computer (his old one was in the control head). Anything I have missed?

 

[marcham]

Looks about right, although the daisy chain for the spurs is less than ideal. The total length of the spur can't exceed 6m and you can't have more than 3 devices in a spur. If you have a 5-way block near the instruments, probably best to use it.

Here's some "light" reading for your friend...

https://busse-yachtshop.de/pdf/raymarine-SeaTalkNG-Reference-Manual.pdf

 

[marcham]

Does he still have a SeaTalk 1 network? if so, and if the ST1 network is connected to the ST NG network, he needs to ensure there is only one power source, ideally located in the middle of the loads. See the ST NG reference above for calculating the LEN (ie: power consumption).

 

[jssailem]

@marcham

The SeatalkNG manual will explain load balance. Each power load (ie display, wire) has a Raymarine load valve. You want to put the network power in the middle of the loads.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

The blue plugs (and stripes on the cables) are for the backbone and the white plugs (and cables) are for the spurs. Each component is a spur. I'm confused by a number of things:

• Your description of the instruments is very confusing. What is the "old stuff" ? (not in the picture?) From the backs of the instruments, they look like raymarine i50/i60 instruments. He got new instruments? What are they? rm i70???? He's leaving new instruments in place or the old ones? I'm completely confused by what's going on here. I think there is a difference in the way the transducers are connected but I'm not sure. My Raymarine i50/i60 instruments had separate transducers for wind, speed, and depth, all separately connected to the instruments and the instruments were daisy-chained, with power coming directly into the back of the first instrument in the chain. Your networked electronics should have each instrument linked as individual spurs to the 5-way block. I suppose they may work daisy-chained but .... Also, the new networking connections have the transducers linked as spurs into the backbone, not directly into the backs of the instruments as is done with the instruments in the picture. Still, this needs a much better explanation to describe what instruments are going to be used.
• It looks like you have a power cord into a spur on the 5-way block - so that's right.
• I don't understand the link between (i50 speed?) instrument (upper right in the picture) and the back of the chartplotter. It looks like it is a common plug with the power cord to the chartplotter. What's that all about? The cable connections don't show up clearly enough to identify.
• It looks like you have a separate single spur set up for the computer ( which is not shown in the picture - but shown on the sketch). The set-up with a spur looks appropriate (as seen in the picture). Your sketch diagram seems to show the computer connected into the backbone port on the 5-way port. I don't think that is correct (unless the computer is a termination - that may be the case and somebody may clarify). I would suspect that the computer should plug into a spur port. The autopilot controller (I assume that is on the bottom right in the picture should come into a spur plug.
• Your sketch doesn't look like the picture, and I don't get that link between the power connection on the chartplotter and that link to the instrument. But the picture shows a backbone to a spur for the computer and termination plugs at both ends of the backbone, so that looks correct. (I think you just short-circuited that end of your sketch - which had me a little confused at first.)
• To summarize the power connections. You need separate power cables from the battery to:
  • the chartploter​
  • the network (to power the instruments, transducers, and misc spurs​
  • the autopilot computer​
• I favor making a separate panel switch for each of the three components above so they can be switched on and off independently, but that's a choice that you can make.

 

[rpwillia]

Scott, He got all new instruments and they must be i70 or newer. John stated he wanted dedicated instruments for the readouts and so the instruments he has still use the old wired connections to the sensors (wind, speed and depth). I suspect this was more cost effective and if we can simply hook the new instruments up to the old wires that will save some work (the wires certainly look the same). The other change he made was to his Autopilot as the new one comes with the separate computer and a new head unit and the computer will interface with his existing hydraulic system.

All of the instruments heads have SeatalkNG connectors so everything is NMEA 2000 based. I suspect we are going to need to use a 2nd 5-way block up in the pedestal enclosure (thanks for the tip MARCHEM and JSSAILEM) in order to keep the distance down. I guess after I do an RTFM of the SeatalkNG manual MARCHEM provided I will understand why the three instruments have 2 SeaTalkNG connectors (the Autopilot head only has one).

As I figure out more I will post updates. All in all I like what he did and I am pretty juiced about the radar as what he got is what I would have chosen. It is always fun to build stuff you are considering with other peoples stuff.

 

[marcham]

If he got a bunch of i70s, then there's another step ....as the i70s (or i70) does not have a direct input for the depth/speed/wind instrument. To keep the old sensors they would have to be connected to an ITC-5 which converts the analogue signal to a ST NG network signal.

Does he have i70s, i70 or i50/i60? Are the pictures in the first post from the new instruments (ie: old standard which allowed daisy chain of ST NG) or new instruments (ie: i70s) which complies with NMEA 2000 and does not allow daisy chain on a spur?

This is not rocket sciences but miswiring the power input could cost a lot of damage.... maybe it's worth a call and a few hours from a qualified installer? Given what your friend spent on "toys", what's a couple hundred on install service (less than a BOAT unit) ?

I'm guessing here .... he got a set of i50/i60 (3 instruments) and one p70s ?

 

[rpwillia]

If he got a bunch of i70s, then there's another step ....as the i70 does not have a direct input for the depth/speed/wind instrument. To keep the old instrument, they would have to be connected to an ITC-5 which converts the analogue signal to a ST NG network signal.

Does he have i70 or i50/i60? Are the pictures in the first post from the new instruments (ie: old standard which allowed daisy chain of ST NG) or new instruments (ie: i70s) which complies with NMEA 2000 and does not allow daisy chain on a spur?

This is not rocket sciences but miswiring the power input could cost a lot of damage.... maybe it's worth a call and a few hours from a qualified installer? Given what your friend spent on "toys", what's a couple hundred on install service (less than a BOAT unit) ?

Thanks for the update. I am not sure what vintage they are but he has been talking to Raymarine tech support as well so as we go through things we are finding more questions. I do know the Wind, Speed and Depth have 2 SeatalkNG connections while the Autopilot control head only has one if that helps resolve it.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Hi Ray,

I'm pretty sure that what I see in your picture (looking at the backs of the instruments) is a i50 speed display, i50 depth display and i60 wind display. I had the same instruments on my boat. Each instrument has 2 STng ports each because they were intended to be daisy-chained. These instruments also have the individual ports for the speed, depth, and wind transducers respectively. The transducers are connected directly to the backs of these displays. The transducers can only talk to the display instruments and they won't talk directly to the network without an iTC-5. Here is the manual for the iTC-5, which he will need if he is going to use the old transducers (the transducers are not NMEA 2000, even though the instrument displays are NMEA 2000. I consider these instruments and transducers as a hybrid system and it is very confusing to me. When you say the old wires look the same, do you mean that they have STng plugs, or do they have the older style plugs that fit into the backs of the i50/i60 displays? Only new transducers have the STng or NMEA connectors. It sounds like you are saying that he has the older individual transducers, which won't plug into a spur connection as you show in the diagram above.

If he wants the old transducers on the network, he has to go through an iTC-5 (he may need 2 if depth and speed are individual ducers) and an i70 display. It's necessary to use the i70 for access to the NMEA 2000 network. The manual below shows the diagrams that will be useful. @Ward H has much better experience with this and will provide a much more coherent description than I can.

https://rowlandsmarine.co.uk/content/iTC-5-Installation-instructions-EN.pdf

I assume that the i70 instruments and new course computer only have one port for STng because they are not intended to be daisy-chained and can only be connected to the network as a spur.

I also had the i50/i60 displays with the old transducers. But, I bought new B&G instrument displays and transducers so now everything is on NMEA 2000 network. The depth and speed transducer connection is a NMEA 2000 spur and my wind transducer is actually wireless, but the bluetooth antennae that picks up the wind signals is connected to the network as a spur also. I intend to still use my raymarine instruments down below in the cabin and I connected each instrument into the network as individual spurs; however, while my i60 wind display is now working properly on the network with the new wind instrument, my i50 depth and speed displays are not displaying the data. The power goes on but there is no display. I'm still working on that and I don't know how to resolve it. I still have the old depth transducer installed but i haven't tried connecting it to the depth display yet (I'm still fishing the cable out of the old run). My old speed ducer has been yanked out in favor of the new tri-data ducer that is networked.

Let us know how the transducers are intended to be connected and if you find a solution for my problem, I'll be happy to hear it!

 

[rpwillia]

Scott, Good Question. I am assuming Raymarine got him the new instruments and that those are used to convert the signals to SeatalkNG so the data can be put on the network. The sensor connections look like the old wired connection. Here are the pictures of the back of the new instruments.

Googling the top left one it appears this is an i60 Wind Instrument.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Nope, those are not new i70 instruments. The white ports are (STng) NMEA 2000 and then there are the labelled spade connectors which lead directly to the transducers. These are the i50/i60 displays. The displays will work on the network but the data from the transducers will not be read on the network unless you feed the transducers through an iTC-5 and an i70 display.

Actually, I'm not sure what good are the displays on the network. Perhaps somebody can explain what good are the displays if the transducers are no good without the modifications. I'm all ears!

I'm pretty sure that I was told that the i70 tridata displays were originally made with 2 STng ports so they could be daisy-chained. But then NMEA said nope, you shouldn't do that ... now the newer i70 instruments are made with just 1 STng port so it can be connected only as a spur. I was confused by an older diagram in that manual that shows an i70 daisy-chained. That must be an older manual. You'll have to be careful what you are looking at!

 

[rpwillia]

I know he wanted the dedicated displays so that is good. I will have to check with him. For what he wants to do I do not think putting the wind, speed and depth onto the network is all that important, but for myself I would have gotten the fancy sonar option as well just because. When I find out I will post.

Nope, those are not new i70 instruments. The white ports are (STng) NMEA 2000 and then there are the labelled spade connectors which lead directly to the transducers. These are the i50/i60 displays. The displays will work on the network but the data from the transducers will not be read on the network unless you feed the transducers through an iTC-5 and an i70 display.

Actually, I'm not sure what good are the displays on the network. Perhaps somebody can explain what good are the displays if the transducers are no good without the modifications. I'm all ears!

I'm pretty sure that I was told that the new i70 tridata displays were originally made with 2 STng ports so they could be daisy-chained. But then NMEA said nope, you shouldn't do that ... now the newer i70 instruments are made with just 1 STng port so it can be connected only as a spur. I was confused by an older diagram in that manual that shows an i70 daisy-chained. That must be an older manual. You'll have to be careful what you are looking at!

 

[Scott T-Bird]

I'm still curious about the reasoning behind this. I'm assuming that he didn't want to buy new transducers, so it may have made sense to buy i50/i60 displays. But if he bought new transducers, he can simply get 3 i70 displays and set each one up separately for wind, depth and speed respectively if he wanted separate dedicated displays. The i70 displays give you way more flexibility and updated functionality, though.

He must not have bought new transducers. I ended up buying 3 B&G displays. One display is mounted at the helm with the chartplotter and it will probably be used primarily for wind. Obviously, the chartplotter can also display depth and boat speed.

I am mounting the other 2 B&G displays on a pod just forward of the companionway so they are readable within the entire cockpit. They can be used for any function that we may want to be visible depending upon our use. One can be used to count down a race start, for instance.

 

[rpwillia]

Actually they did come with new transducers. I will have to ask him. I am guessing he liked the look of the dedicated ones? Otherwise he may need to ask the Raymarine rep who sold them to him.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

IDK ... I must be missing something. It's not making sense to me.

 

[jssailem]

RP. What Scott is saying, the transducers (if old) use a NMEA0183 code. The display needs to be able to understand that code. The ITC5 takes the NMEA0183 code and transmits it onto the NMEA2000 SeatalkNG network. When this happens your new chart plotter can then understand the data and display it on the chart plotter. The individual instruments displays attached to the network can see the data and display it..

 

[Scott T-Bird]

RP. What Scott is saying, the transducers (if old) use a NMEA0183 code. The display needs to be able to understand that code. The ITC5 takes the NMEA0183 code and transmits it onto the NMEA2000 SeatalkNG network. When this happens your new chart plotter can then understand the data and display it on the chart plotter. The individual instruments displays attached to the network can see the data and display it..

Well, right now, Ray seems to be saying that they bought new transducers. If the ducers are new, I would assume that they are NMEA 2000 with a STng plug that should connect to a spur on the backbone. So it doesn't make sense that they would buy the old technology i50/i60 instruments. Usually, folks buy a package of instruments and transducers. I don't really know how to plug and play the i50/i60 displays with the NMEA 2000 ducers. I've been attempting it with my set-up because I have the old instruments and would like to see them serve some purpose. My i60 wind display seems to be working but the i50 depth and speed displays, not so much.

One problem is that we don't see the ducers in the photo or the sketch, so we don't know their specifications. I have my doubts that it is a good idea to use the i50/i60 instruments with NMEA 2000 transducers, but if somebody has any good ideas, I'd love to hear it. The i50/i60 instruments were designed to integrate with analog transducers.

Often (usually), folks want to network new instruments (i70) into a NMEA 2000 network with multiple devices but they don't want to disturb their analog transducers because the project becomes more expensive, time consuming to swap out ducers, and requires haulout and/or a trip up the mast for running cables in an inconvenient manner. That's why the iTC-5 was created .... it carries the old transducers into the modern world!

I don't see yet how this network is supposed to go together, mostly because we seem to be in the dark about the component specifications, specifically in regard to the instrument displays and the transducers.

 

[rpwillia]

Scott, JSSailem, Good points all. I did see the instruments that came in and I recall they had the old individual wires that plug into the back of the instruments. On my boat the Raymarine instruments have their old Seatalk connections which I think are a variant of NMEA0183. John's new instruments have the NMEA 2000 style connectors and not the old curved SeaTalk connectors.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Scott, JSSailem, Good points all. I did see the instruments that came in and I recall they had the old individual wires that plug into the back of the instruments. On my boat the Raymarine instruments have their old Seatalk connections which I think are a variant of NMEA0183. John's new instruments have the NMEA 2000 style connectors and not the old curved SeaTalk connectors.

Looks like he bought this package with the display instruments and transducers.

Raymarine i50/i60 Depth, Speed and Wind Systems Pack - E70153

The Raymarine® i50 / i60 Depth, Speed and Wind Systems Pack is a complete depth, speed and wind systems package with instrument displays, transducers, cables and components required for operation. Features: Functions: Depth t

defender.com

I've always been a bit confused by the diagrams they include in the instructions

https://forum.raymarine.com/attachment.php?aid=4595

Diagram 4.8 appears it might be applicable because it is the only diagram that shows a basic transducer to instrument connection but it doesn't show networking with a chartplotter and it specifically shows networking with an ST6002 (Sea Talk pilot control). Interestingly enough, it also shows integration with a i70 multi-function display. I think that is because integration with a NMEA 2000 network requires a i70 instrument for calibration. The individual i50/i60 instruments are shown to be daisy-chained. Diagram 4.7 shows the transducers going thru a iTC-5 to network with STng (which also requires an i70 display for calibration). This diagram does not show the i50/i60 displays so I'm confused by the applicability.

Also relevant is the specification for the course computer. The diagrams show a variety of connections including an ACU that provides power to the instruments (with a note that ACU-100 does not provide power) and a STng network with SPX computer that requires individual pods that the transducers are networked with.

If the user just wants the i50/i60 instruments to stand alone, then the power simply goes into the back of one display via a power cord with STng plug and the other 2 instruments are daisy-chained together. The transducers are simply connected to the backs of the instruments via spade connections. That was how I found mine to be done. But that's not a network.

If the user wants to network the i50/i60 instruments with STng (or NMEA 200) components, it seems clear that at a minimum, an i70 display is required for calibration and possibly an iTC-5 converter is also required. In short, I think the Raymarine instructions suck in regard to networking the i50/i60 instruments. The only two diagrams that show STng networking don't even show the i50/i60 displays. Instruments are simply labeled "2 x Instruments" - what's that supposed to mean! I'm still confused as to the best method for networking these instruments. It seems that you have to call Raymarine for basic instructions.

 

[rpwillia]

Found this manual and this appears to be the set up John got. The wind, speed and depth sensors get wired into their respective instruments and they are connected via SeaTalkng cables (I am thinking to get power), but they may not necessarily put their values onto the network unless he adds an i70 Multifunction Instrument display and a Instrument transducer converter (iTC-5).
Next time we meet up we will discuss, as this is OK and I am not sure how much value it adds to get these values to the chartplotter (on a friends boat we got his to display the depth on his chartplotter) as he did want the dedicated displays on the helm.