Performance upwind/downwind big boats 90's-2005

[VanIslandGuy]

Greetings,
I'm a long time sailor that has been boat less for 5+ years now and is considering buying again. My budget preference is to keep it below 110k (usd) so I've been looking at 38's, 380's. 40.5's, 410's, Legend 43, and 430's. I'm not a fan of center cockpits. The boat will be for my wife and I plus a big 120 pound dog. (Not livaboards, primarily weekending and 1-3 week cruises in BC and Washington State.)

My big question is sailing performance. I have not seen polars anywhere on these boats. I'm not a racer, but I prefer to sail over motoring whenever possible. (Below 4 kt's boat speed I will motor sail when cruising.) I've never sailed with a B&R rig. I love using Gennakers when single or two handed sailing, but avoid using the pole.

If you could share your year/model number/furling or conventional main/draft depth...then answer below it would be greatly helpful for me and others looking at Hunters that are new to the brand.

1. State roughly how close can you point to the wind in 10kts, 15kts and what boat speed you get?
2. 10kts 15kts of wind beam reaching, what boat speed will you get?
3. How much wind until you put in the first reef, the second reef, etc?
4. What boat speed do you plan passages at?
5. How do you find the boat for two handed docking in a blow?

Any additional shares of what you love or hate about your boats would be appreciated. We are also looking at similar vintage Catalina's, Beneteau's Jeanneau's and Bavaria's however it is easier to get sailing performance figures for these boats. Ultimately we are buying second hand and will buy the best found vessel that comes close to what we need. Thanks for reading and anything you can share.

Sign me Searching...for our next sailboat.

 

[Sailgunner]

You appear focused on speed while there are many other factors to consider if you are doing significant cruising. We have a 2000 410 that is large, comfortable and relatively fast. To keep the Admiral happy you might want to factor other features like number of heads, separate shower, refrigeration and freezer, in-mast furling, power winch, etc. Short answers to your questions I like to cruise around 7 knots and can easily do that sailing in 10-15 knots of wind. Unfortunately the wind is rarely at sufficient speed or direction when destination cruising so we are usually motor sailing. As for docking in a lot of wind any 40' sailboat can be a challenge without a bow thruster (which few of us have). You just have to know your boat and plan you moves.

 

[uncledom]

Glad you like genackers because if you get a B&R rig it severly limits your jib size making a genaker your best friend on many days. I think many B&R rigs would benefit from a double heasdstay arrangement by giving you an immediate choice of sail without going forward for a sail change or to hang a spinnaker. I have a 41 and am happy with almost every other aspect of it. Two heads and showers, good speed, lots of room. Can sail her 35 off the wind but it's much more relaxing at 40 off. Less fussing and adjustment. When you get to around 70 off she'll make hull speed 8.3 SOG measured via GPS in 15 knots and 10k will get you 7k. That by the way is with a battenless furling main, smaller area than conventional main, and 110% jib which is about the best size for that inner and outer shroud setup. I can run full sail to 22 knots then I roll up 30% of each sail or just fully furl the jib. I have not had the sails up in winds more than 32 knots and was not really happy with the prospect of furling them at that wind speed but was able to duck into Oyster Bay and hide behind a hill.
I always plot my trips at 7 knots and am usually well ahead of schedule. If the wind softens or is coming from an undesirable direction I motor sail. I have a Bruntons autoprop which I'm very happy with after I finally beat them enough to rework it until it performed correctly and due to the hassle of dealing with them I would never recommend buying one. But once it's dialed in the results of it's performance are awesome. In 5 to 10 knots of wind, I can run between 1800 to 1200 RPM respectively and make 7.5 knots with out problem. I have had the weather router tell me to slow down or I would be in the wrong place at the wrong time.
I have a bow thruster and it works to about 12 knots. Above that it will hold the bow where it is in a side wind. At 15 knots it looses that battle and slips sideways. I think we've only had that issue once but it was very memorable and I can tell you the speeds I quoted are pretty spot on. Our boat is a dock queen in the respect that I don't have solar or wind chargers and prefer to have her on electric for battery charging and climate control. Yep, I keep that deadly electric on when I'm away from the boat and I keep the 3/4" seacock for the air/heat system open and the thermostat set to ensure the boat is comfortable. My insurance policy is paid, the boat is maintained, and any problem someone might bring up in regards to that practice is the least of my worries so don't bother commenting.
I purchased a Doyle UPS and don't feel it's a big enough difference over the jib, even though it has 85% more sf than the jib. This summer I'm going to move to a roughly 1200sf socked spinnaker. If I have to walk forward and hang a sail it's got to get me to hull speed or it's just not worth the effort. I did however one day put the UPS up and sailed wing on wing and made 5knots in 4knots of air but my racing buddies happened to be on board and were bored by the lack of wind so it was play time. If it was the admiral and myself we would have motor sailed. I'm a few years away from retiring and cruising in quarter year increments. Three months-ish in the winter to warmer environs and three months-ish in the summer to cooler environs. I will be less concerned with boat speed and being able to keep a schedule than I am now. If your bound by time as a concern you can't fully immerse yourself in the sailing experience, IMHO. I would like the freedom to change destinations due to wind direction or decide not to move at all. I hope at least some of the information was helpful. We have been in some nasty water a few times and the 10 to 12's on the quarter were not as bad as the 4' of chop on the nose. It's an all round nice hull, comfortable and secure feeling. I had one really annoying problem when we first got her. In any kind of wave movement she had a squeak that you just couldn't sleep through. It turned out to be the plywood under the forward mattress. They were fitted too tightly! After trimming a saw blade off one of the boards the boat has been quiet, even in 12' seas.
Good luck on your hunt for the perfect boat. Remember it's your perfect boat not mine or anyone elses. Touch it, feel it on the water, sit in the cabin for two hours. It's a big ticket item and you shouldn't be afraid to take your time and get what you need and want.

 

[Terry Cox]

1991 Passage 42, shoal draft (five feet).

1. State roughly how close can you point to the wind in 10kts, 15kts and what boat speed you get? About 33 degrees close hauled will yield about 50% boat speed. Power drops off after 33 degrees.
2. 10kts 15kts of wind beam reaching, what boat speed will you get? About 50% of wind speed.
3. How much wind until you put in the first reef, the second reef, etc? About 26 knots first reef. Never used second reef. Usually hunker down somewhere until wind eases.
4. What boat speed do you plan passages at? Whatever the wind dictates.
5. How do you find the boat for two handed docking in a blow? Dicey, since I'm a solo sailor. Most of my maneuvers work quite well in higher winds.

 

[VanIslandGuy]

Thanks for detailed the replies gentlemen. It is greatly appreciated!

If I come across solely focused on performance that is not my intent. Simply, I love the layouts of the boats, I like the deck/cockpit plans, but what I can not find is performance figures. Even the best layout means very little if it can only sail on a beam reach.

I hope to hear from more owners, that are willing to share how there boat sails and answer my questions from the original post.

 

[Jackdaw]

Interesting thought process.

It's been my experience (as a racing coach) that most people who 'think' they and their boat go to weather well really don't know.
Mostly because they have no accurate frame of reference. You have to go upwind with a good boat near you, and have a good eye for seeing who is 'higher' and 'faster'.

Polars are a great way to tell, but as you note if the designer does not create them your options are limited. One good way to get them is see if another owner has an ORC racing certificate, they used generated polars to create the ratings. Sadly this works best if the boat is popular in Europe, which Hunters are not.

You can google 'BOATTYPE ORC certificate' to see.

 

[Rick D]

I have had a 40.5 for about 17 years. I race it, but casually in non-spinnaker. In that class, I have trophied 50% of the races. I have newish Quantam dacron sails, but with good fabric weighted for lighter conditions. I also have a folding prop. The folding prop and sails made a very big difference in pointing. The boat rates the same in SoCal PHRF as a Catalina 42. I thought that was unfair since I give away waterline and shoal keel. However, I can sail boat for boat dead even upwind for hours with a well-sailed 42 equipped similarly. Pinching, especially in light air is not fast on this boat. Better to crack off and concentrate on boat speed. Same way in over 15 knots true wind. In both cases, the shoal keel is a factor. DDW, if the Catalina has a big jib, it may be faster but the difference is not large if at all compared over a significant difference. As far as docking and motoring, the boat handles very well with it's big rudder. I put a mainsail reef in at 22 knots. I have only put a second reef in twice; in each case 30 plus knots. Hope this helps. The 40.5 is a great boat. Having said that, so is a Catalina 42, et al. I have never regretted my choice.

 

[VanIslandGuy]

Well polars be damned, we have an accepted offer on a Hunter 410! Deep draft, and traditional main which hopefully will give me the performance I enjoy. The cockpit, cabin, and deck spaces on the boat are perfect for us, and most importantly of the many boats we checked out it was both my wife and I's favourite that was in budget. We have a mechanical, survey, and sea trial ahead of us over the next two weeks. The boat is about 5 hours from home, wish us luck.

A big thank you to those that took the time to answer my questions on this thread.

 

[Terry Cox]

Not to throw a monkey wrench into your plans, but just make sure you do NOT show your wife the interior of a P42, especially the aft cabin. You will end up stuck with a dreadful boat... Good luck!

 

[uncledom]

Lurker, good luck on your sea trial, take your time.

 

[VanIslandGuy]

Thankfully, my wife likes the sleeker look of an aft cockpit machine more than she likes the nicer aft cabin of the centre cockpit yachts. We would have been happy with either, but I'm thrilled with what we found. Hopefully all the subjects will clear without any negative surprises.

 

[Tengu]

Congrats on your purchase. I have a 1998 410 on the Great Lakes and love it. Just replaced the stock prop with a FlexoFold and launched last weekend. If you need any info on the 410 let me know.