I have dirty sails
- Thread starter Luckytd
- Start date
- Status
We soaked ours in Oxyclean in a clean trash can and they came out like new. I think I had to use about 1/2 of the container mixed with water. It works well for clothing and it will not hurt the sails. Do not get Oxyclean mixed up with bleach, they are 2 different things. If you have bad stains you can spray the stains with the Oxyclean spot remover first.
If these are WOVEN dacron sails they are quite easy to clean ... while ON the boat at a slip, etc.
The following doesnt apply to colored/dyed dacron, nor dacron taffeta laminated, nor other laminated sails ... just old fashioned woven white dacron. Note: The boat cannot have any exposed non-coated TEAK such as teak decks or 'grayed teak' ... as the above 'chemicals' will strip the tannins out of the bare teak and make a real mess.
You will need- soft bristle scrub brush with 6+ft long 'handle', garden/dock water hose with adjustable 'nozzle', plastic tarp, Sodium Silicate based detergent in a spray bottle ( I like the brand - Tuff-eNuff by Wallace & Sons), oxalic acid crystals from a paint/hardware store, rubber gloves & goggles, etc. for self protection. Dont use 'oxalic acid' substitutes ... found in AGGRESSIVE eco'-states.
On a cloudy, humid day with little to NO wind ....
Raise the sails a few feet at a time and 'spritz' a 2-3ft high section at a time with the Sodium Silicate detergent ... plus a wee bit of water spray from the hose; spread the detergent with the soft scrub brush. Do this to both sides of the sail. Continue in 2-3ft. 'raises' of the sail until the sail is fully saturated with detergent and 'mist' water.
Quickly drop the sail to the deck and cover with the plastic tarp to prevent the sail from drying out - wait one hour. It takes TIME for detergents to loosen and emulsify dirt, etc.
Scrub the sail as you raise and reapply detergent and 'mist' to those place not previously fully soaked. When all the sail surface scrubbed, 'mist' the sail with water and drop back down and recover with the plastic tarp - wait another hour.
Raise and rescrub until all the sail is scrubbed, drop and re-cover and wait another hour.
Raise the sail as you BLAST with water (stand back as the detergent will dissolve skin, eyeballs, etc.) as you raise the sail to full up; Repeat the raising and rinsing until there is no HINT of detergent/foam, etc. and the rinse water is 'clean'. This step will release a most of the organic dirt, etc. from the sail.
Bleaching step to remove iron stains, tannin stains, mildew 'shadows', etc. etc.:
Put dry oxalic crystals (about a 1/2 pint, dry) into a bucket and mix with HOT water. Add 'just enough' hot water so that there are a few crystals undissolved in the bottom of the bucket. Rinse the brush thoroughly with water to remove all previous detergent and Apply the oxalic mixture to the sail in the same manner as the detergent. Most tannins and rust stains will be gone in a few seconds, do the whole sail, drop and let soak, as before. Then, thoroughly raise/rinse a few times to ensure that all the oxalic is removed.
Caution: oxalic acid is quickly absorbed through your skin and can 'reform' in the nephrons of your kidneys as very sharp and very painful crystals. Wear protective gear when applying / handling oxalic acid mixtures.
Let the sail fully dry before lowering or go sailing to let it dry.
Cost: Tuff-eNuff ~$15.00 per quart spray bottle, oxalic crystals ~$7.00 / pint measure.
Result: will be equal or better than a 'pro' cleaning.
The following doesnt apply to colored/dyed dacron, nor dacron taffeta laminated, nor other laminated sails ... just old fashioned woven white dacron. Note: The boat cannot have any exposed non-coated TEAK such as teak decks or 'grayed teak' ... as the above 'chemicals' will strip the tannins out of the bare teak and make a real mess.
You will need- soft bristle scrub brush with 6+ft long 'handle', garden/dock water hose with adjustable 'nozzle', plastic tarp, Sodium Silicate based detergent in a spray bottle ( I like the brand - Tuff-eNuff by Wallace & Sons), oxalic acid crystals from a paint/hardware store, rubber gloves & goggles, etc. for self protection. Dont use 'oxalic acid' substitutes ... found in AGGRESSIVE eco'-states.
On a cloudy, humid day with little to NO wind ....
Raise the sails a few feet at a time and 'spritz' a 2-3ft high section at a time with the Sodium Silicate detergent ... plus a wee bit of water spray from the hose; spread the detergent with the soft scrub brush. Do this to both sides of the sail. Continue in 2-3ft. 'raises' of the sail until the sail is fully saturated with detergent and 'mist' water.
Quickly drop the sail to the deck and cover with the plastic tarp to prevent the sail from drying out - wait one hour. It takes TIME for detergents to loosen and emulsify dirt, etc.
Scrub the sail as you raise and reapply detergent and 'mist' to those place not previously fully soaked. When all the sail surface scrubbed, 'mist' the sail with water and drop back down and recover with the plastic tarp - wait another hour.
Raise and rescrub until all the sail is scrubbed, drop and re-cover and wait another hour.
Raise the sail as you BLAST with water (stand back as the detergent will dissolve skin, eyeballs, etc.) as you raise the sail to full up; Repeat the raising and rinsing until there is no HINT of detergent/foam, etc. and the rinse water is 'clean'. This step will release a most of the organic dirt, etc. from the sail.
Bleaching step to remove iron stains, tannin stains, mildew 'shadows', etc. etc.:
Put dry oxalic crystals (about a 1/2 pint, dry) into a bucket and mix with HOT water. Add 'just enough' hot water so that there are a few crystals undissolved in the bottom of the bucket. Rinse the brush thoroughly with water to remove all previous detergent and Apply the oxalic mixture to the sail in the same manner as the detergent. Most tannins and rust stains will be gone in a few seconds, do the whole sail, drop and let soak, as before. Then, thoroughly raise/rinse a few times to ensure that all the oxalic is removed.
Caution: oxalic acid is quickly absorbed through your skin and can 'reform' in the nephrons of your kidneys as very sharp and very painful crystals. Wear protective gear when applying / handling oxalic acid mixtures.
Let the sail fully dry before lowering or go sailing to let it dry.
Cost: Tuff-eNuff ~$15.00 per quart spray bottle, oxalic crystals ~$7.00 / pint measure.
Result: will be equal or better than a 'pro' cleaning.
Rich,
I'd bet your method produces much cleaner sails than the pro I use.
But his shop is just 100 ft. from the boat, he only charges $.50 a square ft. and Oxalic acid scares me.
I'd pay someone whatever they wanted to clean my sails as you do, they must come out really nice, but it's probably illegal here in Calif. anyway, you can't even let sawdust blow into the water.
I'd bet your method produces much cleaner sails than the pro I use.
But his shop is just 100 ft. from the boat, he only charges $.50 a square ft. and Oxalic acid scares me.
I'd pay someone whatever they wanted to clean my sails as you do, they must come out really nice, but it's probably illegal here in Calif. anyway, you can't even let sawdust blow into the water.
"Oxalic acid scares me."
And that is why the rules are like that in California.
Sorry, couldn't help myself. Honestly, there would be a lot less fear of chemicals and more rational environmental law if we took the time to learn chemistry--we would then understand safe procedures and environmental effects, and not just watch the fool "waving the bloody shirt." Some chemicals are troublesome, some are not.
And remember that a few stains don't effect how a sail works; why is white so important? Oxidizing cleaners, including oxalic acid, measurably shorten a sail or rope's life. I've done the lab testing, breaking samples. Figure about 5-10% if it is done very carefully, 15-25% if more vigorously. Your choice. I would stick to detergent.
Sail Care did I say Sail Care? Yes they do a great job of cleaning and reconditioning your sails. I used them on a sail a few years ago it turned out great. I am sending another to them this off season. Check them out. Sailcare .com I think.
Keith
Keith
ummmm ..... Polyester (dacron, terylene, etc.) is chemically compatible to most aggressive inorganic solvents with the exception of strong acids and some chlorinated (bleach - such as 'clorox', 'chlorine water'. etc.) compounds; mostly incompatible with aggressive organic solvents (xylene, toluene, etc.).
That old polyester suit you threw away 30 years ago is probably in the same non-degraded state deep in a landfill as the day you discarded it and will be so for the next 500+ years.
Chemical compatibility of polyester: http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/chemical-resistance-polyester-d_784.html
That old polyester suit you threw away 30 years ago is probably in the same non-degraded state deep in a landfill as the day you discarded it and will be so for the next 500+ years.
Chemical compatibility of polyester: http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/chemical-resistance-polyester-d_784.html
Do you have a swimming pool or a friend with a swimming pool. Throw the sails into the shallow end of the pool. Get a couple/three kids to jump up and down on them until the get tired. give a pbj and kool aid and throw em back in. Then rinse off with clean water. Seriously! I've been doing this process for years. They whiten/brighten right up. There's just enough chorine in a properly balanced pool to do the trick. Try it. Dude, If they are really groady send them out to sail care. Fair Winds and Full Sails....
I've been doing this process for years. They whiten/brighten right up. There's just enough chorine in a properly balanced pool to do the trick. Try it. Dude, If they are really groady send them out to sail care. Fair Winds and Full Sails....We've had good luck with North Sails but sit down before you get the bill. The biggest difference between DIY and the pros seems to be that the pros get wrinkled sails nice and smooth. Because I've used an oxydizing detergent (full box in a 50 gal garbage can, soaked in the sun for 3 days w/periodic agitation) and hoped for better results I'm looking at oxalic acid myself. My undergraduate degree was in Chemistry so I guess I meet Thinwater's criterion for evaluating chemical treatments, but looking at Thinwater's post and your reply, I wonder if I could get a little more information to help me decide. Thinwater, could you provide a little more information on the methods, duration of treatment, and materials you used for strength testing. Perhaps you or someone else published your results on the subject? RichH, thanks for the link but I was unable to find a definition of "resistant". I'm probably missing something but would it be possible that "resistant" doesn't account for behavior over time or repeated applications. For example, in the information you so kindly provided, polyester is listed as "resistant" to water (and oxalic acid) yet those of us with osmotic blisters on our hulls know that there are many formulations of polyester and some are more "resistant" over time to water than others. Thank you both for an informative exchange.
Different 'state' of solid polyester.
Large structures, especially with 'fillers' such as glass fibers, have a higher degree of vapor permeability thus are more subject to osmosis and the resultant 'hydrolysis' (breaking down of the long chain polymers due to the chemical action with 'water') of the polymer. For example the glass fibers dont 'fully 'wet out' hence the enhanced 'vapor path' or vapor permeability. Polyester fiber is 100% polyE, with no 'fillers' and is less permeable because of its 'purity' (polyester fabric is a very common 'filter cloth' in the filtration 'press' industry); although the total relative surface area of the combined fibers is vastly greater (greater surface area the higher the rate of chemical reaction).
So too, the contact or *dwell time* in water for a 'hull' is infinitely larger than a sail material 'fiber' that is being 'washed' .... many 'magnitudes' greater.
Combo of chemical kinetics and chemical compatibility (and relative permeability) .... favors the fibers in the sail. Best advice is use the weakest compatible 'chemical' that will do the job and give it 'enough (soak) time' to do its job.
Large structures, especially with 'fillers' such as glass fibers, have a higher degree of vapor permeability thus are more subject to osmosis and the resultant 'hydrolysis' (breaking down of the long chain polymers due to the chemical action with 'water') of the polymer. For example the glass fibers dont 'fully 'wet out' hence the enhanced 'vapor path' or vapor permeability. Polyester fiber is 100% polyE, with no 'fillers' and is less permeable because of its 'purity' (polyester fabric is a very common 'filter cloth' in the filtration 'press' industry); although the total relative surface area of the combined fibers is vastly greater (greater surface area the higher the rate of chemical reaction).
So too, the contact or *dwell time* in water for a 'hull' is infinitely larger than a sail material 'fiber' that is being 'washed' .... many 'magnitudes' greater.
Combo of chemical kinetics and chemical compatibility (and relative permeability) .... favors the fibers in the sail. Best advice is use the weakest compatible 'chemical' that will do the job and give it 'enough (soak) time' to do its job.
Thanks for the information and sound advice. I did a little research which I should have done in the first place and now understand the difference between saturated and unsaturated polyesters among other things polyester. Hulls and sails are indeed different polyester animals living in very different environments. However, I still wonder about Thinwater's results. In the meantime I can sit here and continue to consider what "doing the job" means to me.
.... and just how does the textile processor get raw ('greige') polyester fibers and fabrics 'white' in the first place? ... oxalic and other 'bleaches' principally to remove the inherent staining, etc. from the knitting/weaving/finishing, etc. process.
.... and its probably true that once all 'chemicals' including saliva and human sperm are banned, California etc. will revert back to an uninhabited desert. ;-)
My post was based upon personally supervised laboratory testing of ropes treated with bleach, for an article in a sailing magazine. Testing was performed by the manufacture on calibrated laboratory test equipment using samples washed with detergent as a control. It was a statement of fact, not opinion.
Sail fabrics, treated with sizing agents would be less vulnerable. Polymers that have been exposed to UV (sails are thin) are more vulnerable. I have not personally tested sail cloth, but I have no reason to believe the results would should a significantly different trend.
The table you referenced has very little to do with the compatibility of highly stressed fibers. It refers to suitability of gaskets, pipe and fittings, a very different matter. It also allows concentrated bleach and 10-30% sulfuric acid for long term exposure to polyester, which are both fatal to polyester fabrics. A quick Google search can yield some misleading information. I am a chemical engineer, I have 30 years of refinery expereince, and I can tell you that such charts are only a starting point.
Bleach use in moderation and rinsed quickly and very completely (this is key--it is the dried residue that is dangerous) is acceptable on sails. But don't believe that it can selectivity eat stains without eating sails. A sail will lose some small amount of strength every time it is bleached.
If the stains are rust, bleach won't work, but oxalic acid or vinegar will; rust dissolved in weak acid. But both of these acids are troublesome as well. Be careful. And don't EVER get an acid cleaner near a nylon sail. It will be ruined, if the acid is strong enough to disolve the rust. Hope that there is enough EDTA in a detergent to do the trick.
Another posibility is to not try to clean them but to convert them into art. Pull them off the boat, spread them on the ground and put some shallow paint trays around the sides and let some kids play on them for a while.
If your sails are still "crisp" I wouldn't send them to SailCare. They will come back clean, but feeling like a flannel sheet.
This technique works best if you tell the kids to please stay away from the sail, and especially caution them against getting near the paint trays...
Harry
I'd recommend checking with your local sailmaker.
There's a loft near me that will clean and store my sails for the winter for around $100. They'll also make any minor repairs for a few dollars more (quoted after they inspect the sails).
I've always thought their price was more than fair.
Jim
There's a loft near me that will clean and store my sails for the winter for around $100. They'll also make any minor repairs for a few dollars more (quoted after they inspect the sails).
I've always thought their price was more than fair.
Jim
I just bring my sail to the local loft (Thurston's; Bristol, RI) at the end of every season. I get it back in the spring all nice and clean and nicely folded. No hassles on my end which is what it really is all about. Is the savings of a DIY job worth the hassle? Not in my book.
Cheers,
Bob
Cheers,
Bob
Regarding the pool technique: I lay the sails out on my lawn, wet them down, scrub both sides using a soft brush and laundry detergent, then toss in my pool for about an hour right after shocking it. The 25 year old sails clean and brighten up nicely, and the mildew is gone. This is the 14th year I've done this with the original sails, so wasn't too worried about hurting them and I don't race anymore. So far so good.
- Status