What Stinks

[Mike H.]

The head is new. The holding tanks is new. There are no leaks. Is it the old 1 1/2" hose? The smell is intolerable when we get on the boat. After some airing out and flushing, the smell goes away until we come back again after two weeks away.

Please help head mistress!

 

[Steve Dion]

Mike:

Yes! You have stinky-ass-hose syndrome! Yank your hose and be done with it! The HV36 is easy to redo.

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

The most likely possibilities

If the toilet uses sea water and the odor is pretty much confined to the head, is only there after the boat has been sitting and goes away once the toilet has been flushed, it's most likely sea water left and stagnate in the head intake. There's a simple inexpensive cure: tee the head intake into the head sink drain to provide a safe source of fresh water to rinse the sea water out of the whole system before the boat will sit. You'll find details in the discussions of "head intake odor" in the Head Mistress forum.

It can also be odor from the tank escaping into the head through a worn out joker valve. Joker valves should be replaced annually, especially in manual toilets.

If the odor is pervasive throughout the boat, the most common culprit is permeated sanitation hoses. You didn't really replace the toilet AND the tank but not the hoses? I can't imagine anyone doing that...but even some new hoses can permeate very quickly. Do the "hot wet rag" test on each one to test for permeation. The ONLY cure: new hoses. This time go with Trident 101 or 102 (identical except for color) Trident Marine: Sanitation Hose It' costs a bit more, but is a double walled rubber hose that's been on the market for nearly 20 years without a single reported odor permeation failure...something that cannot be said about ANY other hose, not even SeaLand's highly touted "OdorSafe."

Or, whether you replaced the hoses or not, if you had spills when you replaced the tank and toilet, you could have residual odor. The solution to that to spray the affected areas with a product called "PureAyre" PureAyre ...you'll also find information about how to use it in the Head Mistress forum.

And finally (Steve, are you listening?) ...If you just blindly jump to the conclusion that it IS the hoses, you could be wasting good money while failing to solve the problem....'cuz I get calls all the time from people who've replaced their whole sanitation system INCLUDING hoses, trying to get rid of what they thought was "head" odor...when all they really needed to do was clean their sumps and bilges--really CLEAN 'em this time, and flush ALL the dirty water out, instead of just dumping in some more "miracle" cleaner and/or bleach and calling it done. A wet dirty bilge or sump is a real "primordial soup" that, especially in hot weather, can make a whole boat smell like a swamp or even a sewer. Same is true of sumps. Cleaning 'em and KEEPING 'em clean will go a long way in elimnating boat odors.

Hunters are also notorious for a "grid" below the sole that traps water that also turns into a "primordial soup," especially if the fridge or ice box or AC condensate drains into the bilge instead of into a sump. That can be harder to find and eliminate, and may even require installing at least one new hatch in the sole (not hard or expensive to do and definitely worth doing!) to provide access to keep that area clean.

That should help you locate the source and point you in the right direction to eliminate the odor. I suggest you spend some time in the Head Mistress forum...lotta good info there...and you might also check out the link in my signature.

Please help head mistress!

So why am reading this in the Big Boats forum and not the Head Mistress forum???

 

[Mike H.]

If the toilet uses sea water and the odor is pretty much confined to the head, is only there after the boat has been sitting and goes away once the toilet has been flushed, it's most likely sea water left and stagnate in the head intake. There's a simple inexpensive cure: tee the head intake into the head sink drain to provide a safe source of fresh water to rinse the sea water out of the whole system before the boat will sit. You'll find details in the discussions of "head intake odor" in the Head Mistress forum.

It can also be odor from the tank escaping into the head through a worn out joker valve. Joker valves should be replaced annually, especially in manual toilets.

If the odor is pervasive throughout the boat, the most common culprit is permeated sanitation hoses. You didn't really replace the toilet AND the tank but not the hoses? I can't imagine anyone doing that...but even some new hoses can permeate very quickly. Do the "hot wet rag" test on each one to test for permeation. The ONLY cure: new hoses. This time go with Trident 101 or 102 (identical except for color) Trident Marine: Sanitation Hose It' costs a bit more, but is a double walled rubber hose that's been on the market for nearly 20 years without a single reported odor permeation failure...something that cannot be said about ANY other hose, not even SeaLand's highly touted "OdorSafe."

Or, whether you replaced the hoses or not, if you had spills when you replaced the tank and toilet, you could have residual odor. The solution to that to spray the affected areas with a product called "PureAyre" PureAyre ...you'll also find information about how to use it in the Head Mistress forum.

And finally (Steve, are you listening?) ...If you just blindly jump to the conclusion that it IS the hoses, you could be wasting good money while failing to solve the problem....'cuz I get calls all the time from people who've replaced their whole sanitation system INCLUDING hoses, trying to get rid of what they thought was "head" odor...when all they really needed to do was clean their sumps and bilges--really CLEAN 'em this time, and flush ALL the dirty water out, instead of just dumping in some more "miracle" cleaner and/or bleach and calling it done. A wet dirty bilge or sump is a real "primordial soup" that, especially in hot weather, can make a whole boat smell like a swamp or even a sewer. Same is true of sumps. Cleaning 'em and KEEPING 'em clean will go a long way in elimnating boat odors.

Hunters are also notorious for a "grid" below the sole that traps water that also turns into a "primordial soup," especially if the fridge or ice box or AC condensate drains into the bilge instead of into a sump. That can be harder to find and eliminate, and may even require installing at least one new hatch in the sole (not hard or expensive to do and definitely worth doing!) to provide access to keep that area clean.

That should help you locate the source and point you in the right direction to eliminate the odor. I suggest you spend some time in the Head Mistress forum...lotta good info there...and you might also check out the link in my signature.

Please help head mistress!

So why am reading this in the Big Boats forum and not the Head Mistress forum???

Peggie,

If I plumb the head intake into the sink drain it will pimp into the shower bilge which would not be good.

The boat is clean. We have thoroughly cleaned the bilges and floors when we R&Rd the holding tank.

We will replace the Joker valve and the big discharge hose from the toilet to the tank. I'll bet that will fix the smell. We'll use the trident hose and will clean the bilges again with Pure Aye.

I understand what you say about Hunters having a grided bilge system. It took me months to trace down a diesel leak. The grids all eventually lead to the main bilge.

What about those smaller diameter hoses that pump the seawater into the toilet. Do those need to be changed out?

Thanks for all your advice!

Mike

 

[rfrye1]

Fresh Water flush..

Mike, For what its worth, I always flush a 1/2 gallon or so of fresh water thru my system (with the sea-water intake closed and head switch to "dry"), when I leave my boat. Making sure I pump it all the way thru. Done it that way for 10 yrs. Also do a vinegar rinse 1-2 times a year to clean the inside of hoses, leaving it in the hoses for 3-4 hrs to let it soak.

Good luck with the hose redo project. Its a smelly one! One trick I've seen is that as soon as you disconnect one end stuff it with old rags. Keeps the smell "inside".
Bob

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

If I plumb the head intake into the sink drain it will pimp into the shower bilge which would not be good.

Are you saying that your head sink drain has been modified by a PO to drain into the shower SUMP instead of going overboard as it's supposed to do? Nahhh...I don't think so.

What about those smaller diameter hoses that pump the seawater into the toilet.

That IS the head intake ("intake" = bring IN)...

Do those need to be changed out?

When replacing hoses, it's a good idea to replace ALL the hoses...and that includes toilet line, toilet discharge line, the TANK discharge (pumpout) line AND the tank vent line.

You need quite a bit of help to get all this sorted out and I'll be glad to help you do that...but if we do it here or via email it's gonna take a LOT of typing and reading to accomplish less than we could accomplish in 30 minutes of talking on the phone. If you'd like to talk instead of type, send me an email (EMAIL, not PM pleeeze!), which you can do by simply clicking on my name in the box at the left of this post) and we can work a day/time that works for both of us.

 

[AJR4]

Even Trident 101 hose can get odor permeation. I just helped a friend replace a 4 foot piece of it which connected his toilet to a y valve. It had gotten pretty badly permeated in 3 years of use. Unfortunately, it has to run slightly uphill from the toilet so it was frequently full of effluent, contrary to Trident's recommendation.

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

Are you SURE it was 101?

'Cuz if it was, it would be the first odor permeation failure ever for it. It's warranted against it for 5 years, so if it really WAS 101 (black double walled, green stripe, clearly marked 101), Trident will pay for a replacement upon receipt of a piece of it--just a short piece--that's permeated. And if it really is, they definitely want a piece of it, because it'll be the first one in the nearly 20 years 101 has been on the market. So I think you can understand why I'm skeptical that it really is 101 and not another Trident hose. They make a LOT of hoses, including several sanitation hoses http://www.tridentmarine.com/stage/sanitation.htm #148 has a very high failure rate...#140 is better, but not nearly as good as 101/102. And they make other black hoses, too.

 

[Steve Dion]

The Hunter Vision 36 has an inboard sink in the head. The sink and shower drain into a sump and that gets pumped overboard as needed.

So the best bet is probably to rinse the system with fresh water when leaving the boat.

 

[Ctskip]

I let Tide laundry detergent slosh around the bilge for a wknd cruise, then flush it out and rinse. Smells are gone and the bilge is clean. Lazy mans way.

Keep it up,
Ctskip

 

[AJR4]

Re: Are you SURE it was 101?

I am positive the hose was Trident 101. It had the green stripe with the words Trident 101 and was identical to the hose I replaced it with (also Trident 101). We disposed of the hose immediately...not the kind of thing you want hanging around! My friend had done the "hot damp rag test" and concluded it was permeated, or at least smelled bad. Frankly, Trident 101 hose smells pretty bad when brand new...a strong rubber odor. I did not personally conduct the permeation test and any memory of smell I had before removing the hose was wiped out by the process of removing it! There were other issues too...toilet had not been serviced for three years so it may have been the (or at least a) culprit. Now, with new hose and rebuilt toilet, there is no noticeable odor except for the strong rubber smell, which is fading over time.

 

[RobertLangdirect]

Who needs the moment of fame anyway?

. . . We disposed of the hose immediately...not the kind of thing you want hanging around!

And then the judge asked, "Did you remove the marker? And before the lady could answer, he said, "judgement for the plaintiff."

Why keep an inch of stinky hose in a double layered quandrupuled seeled zip lock bag when you can miss an opportunity to make a historical marker?

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

The strong rubber odor when 101 and especially 102 is a common complaint...but fortunately it does dissipate.

Please ask your friend to report this to Bill Shields, president of Trident...he'll want to know even if he can't support a warranty claim without any evidence to prove it.

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

I let Tide laundry detergent slosh around the bilge for a wknd cruise, then flush it out and rinse. Smells are gone and the bilge is clean. Lazy mans way.

I hope you use liquid Tide at least, not powder. And if you have to do this more than once a year--and you really ARE rinsing it out thoroughly, your "lazy mans way" actually requires more effort than doing it the "hard way."

Gotta love people who can't be bothered to do it right, but don't mind doing it over...and over...and over...:dance:

On a serious note, there's another issue...oily residue. It should be removed by putting oil absorbing pads or "pillows" in the bilge BEFORE using any cleaning product, 'cuz detergent emulsifies oil and diesel, which means the pads can no longer soak it up. So just dumping in detergent or other cleaning product and sending it overboard without removing any oil or diesel first is pollution and also highly illegal.

 

[Mike H.]

I'm going to replace the all the hoses and practice the fresh water flushing routine.

Thanks for all the advice! Peggy, I might email you.

Thanks,

Mike

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

I hope you will...

'Cuz I'd rather help you get it right the first time than have to help you figure out how to do it over!

 

[AJR4]

I double checked with my friend and she confirmed that the hose definitely smelled bad on the rag test (and otherwise). It was possibly 4 years since it was installed. I wasn't aware of the warranty against permeation odor, and couldn't find one on Trident's web site, which appears to be less than fully functional. They DO warn against the type of installation which is almost inevitable on many boats, saying:

"Longest odor-free performance on the market, but self draining installations still recommended. "

Self-draining would have to mean that it's a downhill run all the way to the tank. Not gonna happen unless somebody comes up with an in-keel holding tank! I'll contact Trident and see what they say. Notwithstanding this issue, I'm still sticking with Trident 101, base on your (and their) claims of permeation resistance.

 

[donwexler]

Don't forget the vent hose

I replaced all the hoses in my stinky Catalina when I bought it but the vent hose was the main offender. It was not a sanitation grade hose and "sticky" to the touch.

 

[kwcoffin]

I have an 89Hunter and I am hoping that my stink problems are solved. I was checking my #1 Battery when my Skip did the first flush of the year. A small river of blue H2O appeared and we were just hoping it would be a simple clamp issue but we could not see the leak. The linen hamper was cut in 1/2 and removed.....We still could not see the leak. A hole was cut in the aft cabin to see the holding tank and hoses.....I cut the face panel on the sink and pulled it out.....We still could not see the leak.....The hoses were disconnected the stainless banding was cut and the tank removed. What we then found was that nothing had been double clamped and the hose with the freezing cycles of Canada had rotted and split at the elbow leading into the top of the tank. And just touching the lower elbow caused a chip of corroded aluminum (size of 'O') to fall away and the last of the holding tank water drained out. More cracks appeared on the elbow off the toilet itself. All have been repaired with Marine Epoxy ,35yr caulk and Metal Epoxy (Sweat and Tears). All areas were allowed to dry well and air out. All areas were wiped at least twice with Spray Nine. And Febreeze was used at least three times before shutting up for the return to work. We now comment that we never realize how bad our boat smelled. A sanitation leak can be slow and insidious. The tank is much easier to access now and the next tank will be stainless steel. Just a bit of an idea is to use a canoe strap tie down to replace the stainless banding. Cheers to All

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

Hopefully you succeeded in removing all the residual odor...

But if not, it can be done...so get back to me if odor returns.

However, your tank should be replaced ASAP...'cuz urine is so corrosive that it eats through ANY metal, even 316 stainless...so the next tank should NOT be stainless steel! Typically--as you've already seen, the first leak will be at a weld--a seam or a fitting--within 2-5 years...and within an average of 10 years, urine will turn any metal tank into a colander...which is already happening to yours...the first leaks are only the FIRST leaks! Thick walled--at least 3/8"--rotomolded PE is the material of choice for waste tanks.

This is the only Canadian plastic tank mfr I've heard of http://www.barrplastics.com/plastic_tanks.htm Don't know anything about 'em, so can't recommend or warn you off. The best US source is Ronco Plastics Ronco Plastics They make TOP quality thick-walled tanks for a very reasonable price (and will ship USPS to Canada) and have more than 400 shapes and sizes, over 100 of which are non-rectangular...and they also install fittings in the sizes and locations specified by the customer when they make the tank. Give me a shout via email if you need specialized help.