Styrofoam Blocks

timebandit · Mar 22, 2010

The blocks are stock.

Mike B1026 · Mar 22, 2010

Those styrofoam blocks are very reliable too

Want to trust an "inflatable device"?

As Timebandit said, those came from the factory not the previous owner.

Timo42 · Mar 22, 2010

If you wrap the blocks in 6mil plastic sheet and duct tape they won't be as messy.

Nik · Mar 22, 2010

One of the inherent tactics to MacGregor's marketing was that they were self righting and if swamped would still float. Watch the numerous videos of them being laid on the side and popping back up or having the cabin filled and still floating. This is because almost every nook and cranny was filled with various foam blocks (I found every size, shape and kind in mine, great way to save money and the environment by recycling packing materials). On one hand, this is a great safety feature. On the other it makes for a great deal of wasted space. The solution for this really depends on your sailing area and the type of sailing that you do. On my "26D" I removed all the foam from the area above the galley area and use that to house my VHF and assorted stuff. The area in the V-Berth is packed as full as I can fit (more than was originally there). I think in all, I may have removed about the amount that would equal 3-4 "May West" preservers. I found other areas that larger blocks could be cut down a bit and fit into. As for using inflatables??? Unload all your foam and inspect the glassing, I found many sharp edges and would not trust an inflatable bag to stay sound. If you are experiencing the (as most of us are) degradation of the foam you may want to start considering the use of either "blue or pink" foam insulation board cut to fit. One of my next projects. Just my $.0002 worth (no typo on the decimal).

Nik

flynfol · Mar 23, 2010

Hi All,

I'm not really one to poke a stick in a hornet's nest(at least not on purpose.....another story), but have any of us really done the math with real world numbers on how much foam or other material is needed to float one of these boats with all the gear and folks onboard? I know I carry lots of "stuff", some of it bouyant, some nots so bouyant. My foam is in place along with extra lifevests, fenders, coolers ,etc.etc. (what good does neutral bouyancy do for us...other than to pull it off the bottom?) Are we relying on truth or false hopes. I don't remember seeing an outboard on that MAC video. Can we be destined to ride the spreaders like "Capt. Jack Sparrow" at best? I think I have been afraid to crunch the numbers out of what I might find out. Any brave mathematicians out there?

John......(<carries an inflatable just in case)

oreana123 · Mar 23, 2010

I think the foam/flotation question goes to the heart of the older Macgregor design- a lightweight sailboat. If there is very little gear onboard, I could see the boat perhaps floating slightly above the waterline. In the real world, almost every boat featured on this forum undergoes the addition of a lot of accessories = weight. I expect to see questions about refrigeration installations

or a diesel engine install.

I assume the worst. I assume that the boat will sink and plan accordingly. Insurance claim-wise and navigational hazard-wise, I want that sucker to go down!

timebandit · Mar 23, 2010

When I got my boat it had been wet because of rain leeks and smelled bad.

I dug out all the foam and washed it with bleach water and dish soap.

After allowing it to dry, about a week, I painted it with latex house paint to keep it from comming apart.

I don't worry about the floation amount because as I recall there were a couple of people standing on the cabin with the boat full of water because of a large hole drilled in it.

I figure there is enuff floation for over 500 pounds of gear.

flynfol · Mar 23, 2010

I guess I'm a skeptic..........how do you know that boat wasn't chock full of foam. Trapped air probably helps, just playing the devil's advocate. I only count on the foam as plan B. Lets see.....3000 lb displacement (probably light) divided by 64 lbs/cu.ft.=47 cubic feet(I know I don't have THAT much foam) . Granted some things in the boat are neutrally buoyant, but then some others are literally anchors. I suppose if you were able, you could start pitching stuff over the sides.

John

Sumner · Mar 23, 2010

flynfol said:
.... I only count on the foam as plan B. Lets see.....3000 lb displacement (probably light) divided by 64 lbs/cu.ft.=47 cubic feet(I know I don't have THAT much foam) ............John

Once I found out that the stock Mac had foam under the V-berth and we had none and we needed that space I kind of gave up on the foam that was left floating us. We still have it above the V-berth and Galley (but some of that is coming out) and I guess above the aft berth/below the cockpit seats. Maybe what is left and some of the other stuff below will at least slow down the decent to the bottom. Hopefully that never occurs :cry:.

Now that I've seen that it is hard for the boats to take on water if they are knocked down that is less of a concern. Now I guess it comes down to what if we run into something and hole the hull? I am going to put in a bilge pump so that if that happens and we have water coming in maybe it would slow the sinking down and we could run up on a shore if one was nearby.

The first time we took the boat out we slept in it. So here we are late at leaving the dock since the outboard wouldn't start. We power about a ....

http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/macgregor-trips-1/04-09-McPhee.html

..half mile or so up the lake and put the anchor over the side (first time for that also). All is well, but we have only had the new boat on the water for a few hours and then we go to sleep or at least I tried. I start hearing all those little water noises that sounds like water leaking into the boat. I start to realize that we have no idea if the boat might have leaks in it. I get up and pull the wood covers off so I can see down in the bilges on both sides. No water, so I go back to bed and hope to not wake up in a sinking boat.

Now I more or less take it for granted that we aren't going to sink during the night and kind of check things out before turning in. A bilge pump that would come on automatically though might not be a bad deal I'm starting to think.

Hopefully none of us will ever sink, but if that should happen have some plans, we have an inflatable tied along side,

Sum

Our Trips to Lake Powell, UT - Kootenay Lake, Canada - Priest Lake, ID

Our Mac Pages

Mac Links

MrBill_FLL · Mar 23, 2010

IIRC, the 'S' models did not have foam below the V berth, its above the V berth in what some use as an anchor locker. (but you probably have it ahead of the vberth wall (behind the bow eye).

on the boat sinking, consider what will float or be just a little negative boyant once everything is awash. wood is positive, cushions, slightly negative (initially positive)...

(IMHO), as long as some part of the boat is floating I will be ok (assuming hypothermia doesn't get me) since I can hang on the boat, and someone will see the floating boat... eventually.

The worst case senerio is hitting a floating cargo container, or a stump/log. They float like iceburgs, 90% below the water, very hard to see/avoid.

probably not much of an issue for inland sailors.

I'm also planning (Hoping) the boat turns turtle, like 90% of powerboats, and traps air in the bow, and floats from the air pocket.

MrBill_FLL · Mar 23, 2010

also, I was reading practical sailor, and they have smart idea on bilge pumps (not really applicable to mac's), but, they suggest installing a smaller 500-600gph pump in the bilge on a float switch, and a 3000-4000gph, 2" outlet, 1' higher with a manual swtch. idea being the little pump will be used for casual water, and the big pump will last forever, but, is ready when you really need to move water fast.

-I also remember seeing a manual gusher type pump on someone's mac... probably a 25.

(I also have the toilet bowl wax ring and a rag aboard... just in case I need to stop a leak)

flynfol · Mar 23, 2010

Read Henry's story about his VN23 ..Chiquita above under boat info.

Gone in three minutes

Sumner · Mar 23, 2010

flynfol said:
Read Henry's story about his VN23 ..Chiquita above under boat info.

Gone in three minutes

Yes I have, sad, but he got the boat back

. Most of the lakes we have been on, hundreds of feet deep, it would have been gone.

Hey Bill I have that foam above the v-berth. Thanks for that info,

Sum

MrBill_FLL · Mar 23, 2010

pita to find it.... here:

http://sbo.sailboatowners.com/components/com_mtree/attachment.php?link_id=7671&cf_id=24

-this is a PRO for the waterbalast models... water is neutral boyant.

Robspan · Mar 24, 2010

Given their size and price, I'm sure that a large percentage of Macs were sold to first time sailors. The foam flotation was a way to make those buyers feel better about taking their families sailing. No larger ocean racer or cruiser that I know of has such flotation. If water comes through a big enough hole long enough, they're goin' down. Their hulls are thicker and stronger than Macs' but Macs are designed for inland and near-coastal sailing so even if the worst happens, help and/or land aren't far off.

So as with many things in this sport, it's a tradeoff. If you need the space and are willing to take the slightly greater risk, get rid of the flotation. If you feel safer with it in place, keep it.

It doesn't make me feel any safer but I don't need the space so for the time being, the styrofoam is still in place in my boat.

timebandit · Mar 24, 2010

Juno.

There are three embarassing incidents concerning MacGregor that Mac haters like to bring up.

One of them is a video of a pair of young men swinging a helpless girl on the bow ready to throw her overboard when the boat rolls over. Keel not down??

Next is the 26x that capzised killing some. No ballast, loaded wrong, booze, lots of things went wrong.

The story of 'Chiquita', that is one I have followed with interest for almost 20 years. I have read Henry Rodriques' account,'Gone In Three Minutes' at least 500 times and and then the accompaning blogs and still I wondered what went wrong.

My interest stems from the fact that my 25 is very much like his boat with a cast iron keel and it is my firm belief that a sailboat that allows no water to enter will not sink when knocked down, rolled or pitchpoled, foam or not.

Henry had this boat over ten years and used it for extended crusing so I suspect he may have removed some foam for more storage. He mentions adding foam everywhere in the fixit part of the article.

My most concern comes in the article page 24, col.3, paragraph 2.
http://sbo.sailboatowners.com/compon...=7671&cf_id=24 this is where Henry describes his efforts to right the boat by pulling on the keel like a small unbalasted dingy. I have seen it on youtube lots of times, the dingy capzises and the sailor swims to the centerboard, stands on it and up pops the boat. Worth a try but it didn't work.

A month ago I was reading another forum and there was the answer. Henry mention not being able to lift the keel from it's slot because he could not get a good grip on it. The second clue was the fact that the boat was resting on the bottom with the mast straight up (I missed that one).

In my opinion is that for some reason, either sailing without his regular crew or by design, the keel was not pinned in place.

The knock down must have been bad to pust the mast two feet in the water. Without the keel being pinned it most likey added to the roll momentum and help the boat turtle when it slamed home into it's slot as the boat went over 90 degrees.

I am sorry that Henry did not include 'pinning the keel' in his 'Things Learned' section.

I am glad however that no one was hurt.

Henry---If I am wrong about the keel please respond.

oreana123 · Mar 24, 2010

And one more thing- there are so many Macs and Ventures. If they were death traps, we'd be hearing about it all the time because there are so, so many of them being actively sailed. Instead, you have one instance of a sinking (Chiquita) I am sure there has been more but WTF, where are the stats showing the boats going down? Answer: I have no stories of this happening in my area, even from the old timers (I am not so young). John S Idaho area

Nik · Mar 25, 2010

Ok, after a bit of research it seems that from DOW their foam is rated at 55lbs/cu-ft. Our Macs are say 3000#, that would mean that we need about 55 cu-ft to support them. ( I am not taking into account buoyancy of other materials, lack of others etc...) This is for arguments sake only. Now a 4' x 8' x 2" piece has 5.33 cu-ft or 293# of flotation. Meaning you would need a bit over 10 full sheets. Lets say 11 to make up for the weight of the foam. All I know is if I skinned the inside of the boat with that, I'd have a lot less room and one heck of an R-value.

oreana123 · Mar 25, 2010

Nik
That is great stuff! I would also say that many boats are way over 3K lbs Ha