Jessica gets "knocked down"!

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Oct 22, 2008
3,502
- Telstar 28 Buzzards Bay
I'd point out, that even though she is in contact with her shore support team, that is no different from what Dame Ellen did on B&Q a few years ago...and when push comes to shove, the only person on Ella's Pink Lady is Jessica... there is no one there to help her set the sails, reef them, steer the boat or anything else.

Almost all of the recent single-handed circumnavigations have had modern communications and support teams on shore... the primary difference between Jessica and Ella's Pink Lady and Ellen MacArthur and B&Q is Jessica's age and the cost of the boat she's on.

Hello All,

Not knocking Jessica's bravery (because anyone has to be brave to go through that and still want to keep going), but given our previous discussion about if someone using her level of technology can be considered to be sailing "solo" around the world I wanted to point out something from her own blog...

"I owe a huge thanks to Bruce, who was completely perfect, saying just the right things on the phone every time I called in and also to Bob who stayed up through the night to keep me updated on when the wind could be expected to ease."

I still have to ask the question of if she would have made it through that storm if it hadn't been for her SAT phone and all her support. Not that I don't think she should have those things (because given the fact that we have this technology I think it would be foolish to send someone her age out without it) but it still forces me to ask the question of whether we can really say that any of these young sailors are truly heading around the world "solo and unaided". (Which before anyone gets upset is a very different question than is she a brave young woman- which as I said before I believe she is).

Glad to hear she got through ok and hopefully she will still make it the rest of the way around... Although it sounds sadly like she might not get to keep the title of "youngest around" very long if the other girl manages the same thing.

Take care,
-Levin
 

rfrye1

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Jun 15, 2004
589
Hunter H376 San Diego
Amazing feats of couarge for such a young person. I still ask my 22 yr old daughter to call me when she gets home safely.....
I can only imagine how her parents are dealing with this.
Bob
 
Dec 20, 2009
38
allied seabreeze san diego ( mission bay)
bah ,hummbug !!!
hello All,

Not Knocking Jessica's Bravery (because Anyone Has To Be Brave To Go Through That And Still Want To Keep Going), But Given Our Previous Discussion About If Someone Using Her Level Of Technology Can Be Considered To Be Sailing "solo" Around The World I Wanted To Point Out Something From Her Own Blog...

"i Owe A Huge Thanks To Bruce, Who Was Completely Perfect, Saying Just The Right Things On The Phone Every Time I Called In And Also To Bob Who Stayed Up Through The Night To Keep Me Updated On When The Wind Could Be Expected To Ease."

I Still Have To Ask The Question Of If She Would Have Made It Through That Storm If It Hadn't Been For Her Sat Phone And All Her Support. Not That I Don't Think She Should Have Those Things (because Given The Fact That We Have This Technology I Think It Would Be Foolish To Send Someone Her Age Out Without It) But It Still Forces Me To Ask The Question Of Whether We Can Really Say That Any Of These Young Sailors Are Truly Heading Around The World "solo And Unaided". (which Before Anyone Gets Upset Is A Very Different Question Than Is She A Brave Young Woman- Which As I Said Before I Believe She Is).

Glad To Hear She Got Through Ok And Hopefully She Will Still Make It The Rest Of The Way Around... Although It Sounds Sadly Like She Might Not Get To Keep The Title Of "youngest Around" Very Long If The Other Girl Manages The Same Thing.

Take Care,
-levin
 

Joe

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Jun 1, 2004
8,259
Catalina 27 Mission Bay, San Diego
Levin.... how can you be so obtuse?

Hello All,

.............it still forces me to ask the question of whether we can really say that any of these young sailors are truly heading around the world "solo and unaided". .............-Levin
You're embarassing my Navy brothers, sir. You have tunnel-visioned your interpretation of the terms "solo" and "unassisted" into some other form or fashion to suit your stubborn, uninformed opinon.

Please........ take the time to clean up your thinking by investigating what solo and unassisted (without assistance) means in the sailing world.... Solo should be pretty obvious, even to you, so here's their take on the "unassisted" aspect:

" “Without assistance” means that a vessel may not receive any kind of outside help or take on board any supplies, materials or equipment during the attempt. A craft may be anchored or beached during the attempt, but any repairs must be made without outside resources, materials or help."

You keep using the term "unaided"... that term was never used, you made it up, and it's not the same. That was pointed out to you months back when we had this same discussion. So, instead of misinterpreting what she DIDN'T say.... the least you can do is misinterpret what she DID say.

And by the way, get off the Sat Phone complaint..... all long distance sailors have had some way to communicate with the rest of the world. SSB radio has long been the standard, but now most include satphones as part of their equipment. So...there is nothing new about being able to call home.
 

Levin

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Apr 7, 2007
165
Hunter 340 San Diego
Still missing the point

Hello again everyone...

I still say that we are missing the point on this discussion just as was missed the last time around. It seems the second I tried to bring up an intelligent discussion around whether in this modern world, with these modern marvels we have (SAT phones, Skype, Internet, etc) whether a 16 girl sailing around the world can be considered to be doing it "solo and unaided (sorry "unassisted")" everyone freaks out like they have to defend her honor.

This isn't a discussion about her bravery, and so I don’t think any old men need to rush to defend her good name (I often wonder if this discussion would get nearly as sidetracked if the sailor in question was a male)... it's a discussion about whether we should consider an attempt solo or unassisted simply because there isn't someone else physically on board with her. I personally don't think we should consider it as such due to all the people she has supporting her. I don't think either Ms. Watson (or Ms. Sunderland for that matter) would have made it anywhere if she didn't have the backing of her team telling them what to do or giving them daily instructions, which makes the who argument for a true solo navigation difficult to justify in my mind.

According to Joe (and I'll assume his sources are correct) the definition of "unaided" includes the statement that: "Any repairs must be made without outside resources, materials or help" It's that last bit about no outside help that in my mind makes it a very "aided" journey. Even though no one is physically there someone is constantly helping Ms Watson out with all of her problems.

Again... not a discussion about bravery, or courage, or fortitude which I believe this young woman has in spades... just a discussion about whether we should consider this young sailor (or any sailor using her level of technology) to really be doing this on their own.

Take care,
-Levin
 
May 31, 2004
858
Catalina 28 Branford
At the risk of being labeled a curmudgeon (or a humbug), I think Levin has a point. I don't know enough about Jessica's situation to have an opinion, but I think it is a valid observation that with all of the communications technology available today, it is not unreasonable to say that there are different degrees of "unassisted". For example, which voyage would you consider more impressive: 16 year old sails around the world, equipped with a sextant and short wave radio, or a 16 year old who sails with a GPS and satphone? How about if the sailor with the satphone also had skype, shoreside weather routing, and 24/7 support staff? What if you added that this sailor called support for advice every time the wind changed to get directions on sail selection? What if this sailor needed to be talked through every repair? Well, you get the picture.

I get that the "rules" do not differentiate between the two, nor do I think you could ever write one that would satisfy everyone. And for my money, both voyages would be awesome accomplishments. Having said that, I think that there is a qualitative difference between the two; I believe that was Levin's point, and I have to agree with him. And I ain't gonna touch the question of whether Jessica should be out there in the first place or what I think of her parents.
 
Jan 22, 2008
8,050
Beneteau 323 Annapolis MD
Okay, Joe, I'm just coming into the middle of this p***ing contest, but where did you get the definition of “Without assistance” means that a vessel may not receive any kind of outside help or take on board any supplies, materials or equipment during the attempt. A craft may be anchored or beached during the attempt, but any repairs must be made without outside resources, materials or help."... The "may not receive any outside help" seems to be in violation, though there are no doubt those who would argue that WeatherFax is "outside help". The dictionary defines aid as assist, and assist is to aid.

I see Kevin's point, and the one I would wonder also, is if the sailor has "an angel on her shoulder", so to speak (or maybe a dozen in this case?), is she really testing her own skills and ability. These days coaches talk to quarterbacks on headsets. What would be next- a high school chess player who has radio contact with the worlds chess champion?

(Edit to add): IMHO if the sailor was truely "unaided/unassisted", they would only have GPS and EPIRB. And VHF. If the governing authority on the record attempt wants to accept unassisted/unaided by their own definition, then let them. Otherwise, we can all have our opinion, so let's not get nasty becuase one person's opinion is not the same as the next guys's.:naughty:
 
May 2, 2008
254
S2 9.2C 1980 St. Leonard (Chesapeake Bay), MD
Well, if you REALLY want to discuss "unaided" or "unassisted" then maybe we should take away ALL forms of communication (radio, phone, internet, RADAR, GPS, etc.) so she would be truly on her own. And while we are at it, make sure she doesn't have any 'how to' books to assist with repairs, etc. Afterall, we wouldn't want the author who wrote the book to be accused of 'aiding' or 'assisting'. All I know is that I am not where she is (and never will be) but if I were, I would certainly feel like I was doing it alone and unassisted!
 

Joe

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Jun 1, 2004
8,259
Catalina 27 Mission Bay, San Diego
Okay you guys.... this was lifted from the WSSRC - World Sailing Speed Record Council http://www.sailspeedrecords.com/the-courses-offshore.html

Jessica is simply complying with these rules in her attempt... Your personal definitions are irrelevent, except to you of course. Levin, if you propose to have an intelligent discussion, it would be appropriate for you to investigate the subject first.


21. SAILING RULES
a. (Applies to all records and performances)
i. A vessel shall sail by using only the wind and water to increase, maintain or decrease her speed, except for 21.b and 21.c. below and in exceptional circumstances which shall be reported to and get approval from WSSRC.
ii. The vessel must be capable of floating and supporting its crew when at rest.
iii. Prior to the attempt, the vessel must be at rest, afloat and must accelerate without assistance.
iv. No form of rating, handicap or sail area class is relevant.
b. Manual operation
Unless categorized as 'a vessel using powered sailing systems' (21c), only human power and natural forces may be used to work the vessel during the attempt, with the following exceptions:
i. Electricity may be used for instrumentation, navigation, communication, automatic steering and for domestic purposes such as lighting, heating, cooking etc. Generators including motors, solar panels, wind or water turbines can be used to provide electric power, together with the appropriate batteries and control gear. Mechanical power may be used for charging batteries, pumping bilges, loading, unloading or transferring water-ballast, moving keel and rudder appendages or for weighing anchor. The operation of engines, motors or pumps must not provide any element of propulsion.
ii. In handling the vessel's sails and gear, there is no objection to various forms of power transmission, such as hydraulic, provided there is no element of power storage beyond that associated with materials in their normal sailing applications.
c. Powered sailing systems
Vessels using powered sailing systems can apply for ratification of any record but will be listed as a separate category. A vessel is so categorized if any of the sailsetting, reefing, furling or sheeting functions employ mechanical power. Natural forces must always remain the sole means of propulsion.
d. Crew on board
No person on board shall intentionally leave, except when ill or injured, or to help a person or vessel in danger, or to swim, or go overboard to clean or repair his vessel. A person leaving the vessel by accident or for one of the above reasons shall be back on board before the vessel continues in the attempt. However any change of crew, except the skipper, may be made during an attempt "with assistance"
e. With or without assistance
i 'Without assistance' means that a vessel may not receive any kind of outside assistance whatever except for 21.h. and 21. i. nor take on board any supplies (beyond the harvest of the sea), materials or equipment during an attempt. A vessel may be anchored or beached during the attempt, but any repairs must be made entirely by the crew without outside resources or materials. It is never permitted to take on board stores or equipment or get any other kind of help from another vessel whilst under way (except as 'i' Emergencies below).
ii 'With assistance' means a vessel may enter harbour for repairs, alterations or stores as required with or without the help of persons outside the crew. During any stops, the timing of the voyage continues.
f. Singlehanded
'Singlehanded' means there is only one person aboard. If a singlehanded skipper accepts any kind of outside assistance (see 21e) then the voyage falls into the "singlehanded with assistance" category.
g. Steering
Any type of automatic steering is allowed.
h. Navigation
Any type of navigation equipment is allowed and there is no objection to any type of information or advice being transmitted to or from the vessel. However, the vessel must be sailed and navigated by the crew, without any element of physical 'remote control'.
i. Emergencies
i An engine may be used to recover a man overboard, to render assistance or in any other grave emergency, in which case full details must be recorded in the vessel's log and disclosed to the WSSR Commissioner.
ii In the event of fouling another vessel or manned structure (e.g. an oil rig) it is permitted for the crew of the other vessel or structure to assist the vessel in getting clear.
j. Rounding
When a course includes a mark, beacon or point to be rounded, a string representing the wake of the vessel after starting and before finishing would when drawn taught pass each mark on the required side and touch each rounding mark.
k. Monohulls
In the case of a record or performance for a 'monohull', the definition of a 'single-hulled vessel' follows major rating rules i.e. the section of the hull wherever taken shall not have more than one inverse curve. WSSRC decision on this classification shall be final.
l. Current and distance across the water.
No allowance is made for current in considering any of these records. Logged mileage on board is not considered by WSSRC
 
May 31, 2004
858
Catalina 28 Branford
Joe: I think we are talking past each other. You keep bringing up rules and definitions; I don't think anyone (at least not me) is suggesting that Jessica's voyage doesn't qualify as unassisted under the rules. I believe the question posed by first by Levin is not "is her trip unassisted under the current definition of the rules", but "should it be considered unassisted given the level of help she seems to be receiving"?

Personally, I don't think you can split enough hairs in the legal definition; what is acceptable to some will surely be unacceptable to others. However, I think it is perfectly reasonable to make the point that an observer can feel greater admiration for a more "traditional" voyage than an electronically-assisted one.
 

Joe

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Jun 1, 2004
8,259
Catalina 27 Mission Bay, San Diego
Joe: I think we are talking past each other. You keep bringing up rules and definitions; I don't think anyone (at least not me) is suggesting that Jessica's voyage doesn't qualify as unassisted under the rules. I believe the question posed by first by Levin is not "is her trip unassisted under the current definition of the rules", but "should it be considered unassisted given the level of help she seems to be receiving"?

Personally, I don't think you can split enough hairs in the legal definition; what is acceptable to some will surely be unacceptable to others. However, I think it is perfectly reasonable to make the point that an observer can feel greater admiration for a more "traditional" voyage than an electronically-assisted one.
I see. And what would you consider a "more traditional" voyage? Please define, so we can all be enlightened. Jessica is not receiving any more information than her predecessors for the past 20-30 years. New technology has simply made her effort more visible to all of us. As far as splitting hairs... the rules are pretty clear. Levin just hasn't read them.

I disagree on your comment about Levin's question. He specifically stated that she was "aided" according to his own definition and has not, at this point in time, even acknowledged the existence of a governing body that has set down rules regarding offshore record attempts. That's why I felt compelled to bring it to his attention.... but it appears fruitless.

I appears to me that Levin's point is to discredit Jessica's attempt at an unassisted, non-stop, solo circumnavigation by claiming that she has too much technology(sat phone) and is therefore "cheating" because she can call home, or can get weather information when she needs it. I'm saying bull crap.... you don't know what you're talking about... do some research. If she's cheating, the folks that oversee these attempts will decide that, not some dude who's only been sailing 5 years and has never ventured outside of SoCal coastal waters.
 

Sumner

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Jan 31, 2009
5,254
Macgregor & Endeavour 26S and 37 Utah's Canyon Country
If you race or make record attempts you do so under the rules of the organization that you are working with. I'm involved with one car that makes record runs on the salt at Bonneville and I'm building another. We build these cars to comply with and take advantage of the rules as they are today, not 20-30 or 50 years ago. That would make no sense.

It seems to me that Jessica and her "support" team or doing the same and why would they not want to? This thread is about Jessica and what she is doing/accomplishing. If you have a problem with the WSSRC then why not start a separate thread discussing there how you feel about their rules and how they should be written or interpreted?

You say you are not trying to discredit her, well if that is true then start talking about the WSSRC.

One last thing I'd like to comment on is this quote from above....

IMHO if the sailor was truly "unaided/unassisted", they would only have GPS and EPIRB.
Would allowing those items be fair to the sailors that sailed before them without them? 15 years ago when say GPS came into prevalent use I'm sure there were those who were making the same arguments that you guys are now making about SAT phones, etc..

c ya,

Sum

Our Trips to Lake Powell, UT - Kootenay Lake, Canada - Priest Lake, ID

Our Mac Pages

Mac Links
 
Jan 22, 2008
8,050
Beneteau 323 Annapolis MD
Would allowing those items be fair to the sailors that sailed before them without them? 15 years ago when say GPS came into prevalent use I'm sure there were those who were making the same arguments that you guys are now making about SAT phones, etc..

Kind of like allowing more baseball games in a season so a player can have more at-bats to break Ruth's 60-homer season. That's "progress":cry:
 

Levin

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Apr 7, 2007
165
Hunter 340 San Diego
The "rules"

Hello all...

Just some more food for thought on this discussion, since we have been arguing so much about what the official rules are (well I haven't been arguing this but the question has been brought up). Anyway the point is there are no official rules for Ms. Watson's journey other than the ones she has made up. The organization that keeps track of these things: World Sailing Speed Record Council- has actually closed all new records to the category of "Youngest Non-stop singlehanded circumnavigation". The last name on their list is Jesse Martin from what I believe was his 1999 circumnavigation.

So the point is there are no rules to argue about... because there are no records to be had in this case (other than bragging rights). What we are having here is merely an intellectual discussion about what we think qualifies as sailing "solo"... and I think everyone knows my opinion so I won't belabor it again.

Just thought I would put that out there as I think this discussion has gotten far too much into the weeds about "rules" and the difference between "unaided" and "unassisted".

Take care,
-Levin
 

Joe

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Jun 1, 2004
8,259
Catalina 27 Mission Bay, San Diego
There is nothing in the rules I posted that mention age.... but she still sails within the guidelines regarding solo, non-stop and unassisted to qualify her voyage in those areas. They stopped the age record for political reasons, and I agree with them in that regard.

The issue I had with you, Levin, is that you never acknowledged a set of rules and definitions for the very terms you had a problem with. Namely the term "unassisted" and to some extent "solo". You consistently referred to your own definintions and interpretations of these terms while complaining that Jessica's circumnavigation attempt was tainted in some way.

The age issue was removed in order to discourage the kind of artificial competition that is going on between the adults who sponsor Jessican and Amy.... It's dangerous and irresponsible.

Let's move on shall we... I've pretty much burned out on this... I just hope you have some insight into my point of view regarding your original premise and I don't expect you to change your position. Take Care, by brother.
 
Jun 5, 1997
659
Coleman scanoe Irwin (ID)
What we are having here is merely an intellectual discussion about what we think qualifies as sailing "solo"
-Levin


....a time to be silent and a time to speak
-Ecclesiastes


Mr. Levin,

Why not start this discussion another time in another thread ?

At some level, it reminded me of the "why should I donate my money if they're not willing to to use contraceptives" comment made by someone in response to the Haiti earthquake disaster last week. One can have a perfectly fine discussion about the merits of promoting contraceptives in poor third world countries, of course, but only someone devoid of elementary social graces might want to start it up in this particular context.

When any sailor gets knocked down within an inch of his or her life the sailing community pays attention. When that sailor is a teenage girl braving the roaring forties and screaming fifties alone at sea most of us will pray for her continued survival, many of us will bring tribute to her courage and determination and a few of us might perhaps want to discuss what she could possibly have done wrong. However, I can't think of anyone else but you ever wanting to discuss whether that sailor might perhaps have been receiving too much telecom support from ashore to qualify as sailing solo.

If this is not a thinly veiled attempt to belittle her achievements and/or courage but rather "an intellectual discussion", where is the logic in all of this??

It seems to me that any serious discussion about a sailor getting knocked down would have to start from the null-hypothesis that there might have been a lack of sufficient data/information/communication, rather than a surplus....!!

Have fun,

Flying Dutchman
 

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
The last person to sail around unaided and unassisted and alone was Joshua Slocum. After that everyone who followed built on his experience. Even Slocum received assistance on many of his stops. He sailed with all natural fiber sails and rigging in a rebuilt wooden oyster smack that was never designed for crossing oceans. He probably navigated by lunar distance with whatever charts he could obtain.
 

zeehag

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Mar 26, 2009
3,198
1976 formosa 41 yankee clipper santa barbara. ca.(not there)
yay ross--yup..sailing has changed a lot in the last 10 yrs not to mention the passing of time since mr slocum did the deeds--lol----we now have airplanes in wihich to circle our kids when they do something wak---lol---and alladatcrap---lol--is a big difference between jessica and the ones of us sitting on docks askeered to toss lines--LOL--i run away from home to sail!!!! is a hugeous and nasty ocean out there and she is a girl with bigger ones than most men i have met lol.....i wish her well and may she have her day-----lol---we aint doin' it--why should we bash her for it LOL--i wasnt for it at first-- but i got to like her chutzpah---lol......and knockdowns?? sic frangit crustulum......is sailing...lol--thank gods is a part of sailing i havent yet experienced--and i pray i donot have to!!!!!

and for the record--in the growth and development of humans, females mature at a very much earlier age than do males. is a good thing for a hormonal female to get knocked down sailing than to get knocked up at home ...LOL.......mebbe if my 7 yr old granddtr wants to go sailing in her 16th yr of life--i would prolly be all for it--keeps her off the streets and out of the way of male proboscae....LOL
 
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Nov 6, 2006
10,151
Hunter 34 Mandeville Louisiana
Here ! Here ! Zee ! I totally agree !
I say splice the mainbrace and salute her ! She is over half way 'round now.
 

zeehag

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Mar 26, 2009
3,198
1976 formosa 41 yankee clipper santa barbara. ca.(not there)
geaux gurleeeee!!!!!
GEAUZ SAINTS!!!!!

ROFLMFREEEEEKING AO...lol
 
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