Bottom of anchorage is probably more important than the anchor. Thick sticky clay holds well. Grass over sand can be a problem. I've never tried to anchor in shale but it doesn't sound good. We drug two anchors one night when a thunderstorm came through in the early am. The wind shift did it. Well the Danforth had a conch on it's flukes and couldn't reset and the CQR just lay on it's side sliding across the grass. My wife saved the night when she went on deck and said that all of the other boats had left!!!! I said check the GPS and we had drifted 1/2 mile and were heading for a lee shore. Exciting thing to do untangling two anchors at 3 am as you head towards a lee shore. I couldn't use the engine with the lines running under the boat. At least I kept my head and didn't wrap the prop!!!! We were getting pretty close to the lee shore before I got both anchors on board. now I use a 33# bruce with the danforth as a backup...never dragged.
Are you comfortable sleeping "while on the hook"?
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Oh Joy has a 35# CQR primary with 50' of 3/8" chain and 200' of rode. The secondary is a 40# Fortress with 30' of 3/8" chain and another 100' of rode. I have another 100' of 5/16" chain aboard not connected to anything and another 200' section of rode.
Sizing Rocna
With the upmost respect and just want to make sure I'm reading this right; According to Rocna's website sizing, a 36' boat with a displacement (which I assumes includes ballast) would require greater than a 33Lb anchor if it is over 7 tons (14,000Lbs). What is your Displacement?What do I run on our 36 footer? A Rocna 33Lb with over 80' of chain then 300 feet of 5/8" double braid. Yes, I sleep soundly...
My 33 pound Rocna has about the same sq inch surface area (read, holding power) as most 45 pound anchors. I have also had the anchor hold firm with zero movement or dragging in 55+ in a very soft bottom.. Rocna's sizing is very, very conservative. Sure I could have gone with a 44 but found it unnecessary after lengthy discussions with Rocna.
Tim R., another forum member, used my Manson Supreme 25 pound on his 35 foot Ericson for quite a while, with no issues, despite a 25Lb. being rather undersized. He now has a Manson Supreme 35Lb on a 35 footer..
I would feel very comfortable to at least 60 knots with my Rocna. At 60 I would get out my storm anchor and rode...
I consulted at length with Rocna on sizing well before making a purchase. The difference between Rocna and many manufacturers is this:
Rocna said:
Free Spirit a 32 footer carry's a 33# Bruce with forty feet of 5/16 chain and 200 feet of 9/16 rode and this seem to work real well on the Great South Bay in sand and mud, found out about the Rocna and Manson's after I bought the Bruce
My back up is a FX16 Fortress with 3/8 chain & 1/2 rode
I never sleep well when anchored and I'm usually up every hr checking if its windy, thank God for anchor alarms on the gps.
My back up is a FX16 Fortress with 3/8 chain & 1/2 rode
I never sleep well when anchored and I'm usually up every hr checking if its windy, thank God for anchor alarms on the gps.
David,
I'm using a 9lb Danforth type anchor with 15ft of chain and 150ft of 3-strand nylon. Sleeping comfortably depends on the weather. The first time was a sleepless night. The last time I anchored out, Saturday night Labor Day weekend, was much better. I did wake a few times to check my position. All was good as the wind was very light. I think I'm going to add a larger anchor for overnighting next season, and then I'll have two.
JerryA
I'm using a 9lb Danforth type anchor with 15ft of chain and 150ft of 3-strand nylon. Sleeping comfortably depends on the weather. The first time was a sleepless night. The last time I anchored out, Saturday night Labor Day weekend, was much better. I did wake a few times to check my position. All was good as the wind was very light. I think I'm going to add a larger anchor for overnighting next season, and then I'll have two.
JerryA
Me too!!
We dragged a few times--nightmares like yours. I got 33lb bruce with 50' of chain (plus 200' of nylon rode) and haven't had a problem since. I have a manual windlass.
I agree
I agree absolutely. We use a 33lb Bruce on our 30' Hunter and it works fine. I wouldn't go any smaller. Plus use at least 50' of chain. You need a windlass unless you're a weightlifter.You'd be good to ignore those numbers for the Bruce/Claw style anchors in the link.
Most anyone who's ever used a Bruce, and nearly every anchor test has concluded, that with the Bruce/Claw you should always go up at least one size, if not two sizes. This is what Practical Sailor recommends too.
Sail magazine suggesting a 22Lb. Bruce for a 41-45 foot boat is a wrecked boat waiting to happen. I had a 22 Bruce on a Catalina 30 that I dragged on a number of occasion with 60 feet of 3/8" chain and proper scope. This is TWO full sizes bigger than what Sail says a Bruce can do on a 30' boat.
I have never met anyone with a 30 footer who runs an 11Lb. Bruce? That is just plain scary advise on Sail Magazine's part. The Bruce is a fine anchor if you go up one or two sizes. Having used Bruce anchors extensively two sizes minimum would be my own comfort level..
What do I run on our 36 footer? A Rocna 33Lb with over 80' of chain then 300 feet of 5/8" double braid. Yes, I sleep soundly...
It depends on how you anchor
Numlock
Sackets Harbor, NY
We also anchor all over eastern Lake Ontario, 1000 Islands, and Bay of Quinte and do not have a problem, at least we haven't since we got our 30lb Bruce and 50' of chain. I lower the anchor and DO NOT back down. The anchor must be allowed to settle through the weeds. When it catches and settles you're safe. I use a manual windlass. '93 Hunter 30.
Numlock
Sackets Harbor, NY
Sounds good to me
An 11 pound claw with 11 feet of chain and 300 feet of nylon sounds like a good set-up for a 19 foot, 2000 pound boat anchoring in sand, mud, clay, or coral sand. I don't think the claw is the best for weeds, but we just take more care backing down, and checking a range and the GPS if there are weeds.
Lady Lillie is a 7000 pound 27 footer. We use a 22 pound Bruce with 15 feet of chain and 140 feet of nylon in the sand, clay, and mud (with occasional weeds in late sumer) of the great lakes. We have another 200 feet of nylon, and a Danforth lunch hook. We anchor 10 to 20 nights a summer, and the Bruce has held every time after setting it well by backing down on it. We use a 7:1 scope, or 5:1 if we are chartering with an all chain rode. The only time we had to use less was a crowded anchorage in the San Juans. And that night I didn't sleep well!
The only time we had an anchor move on us at night was a claw on a Hunter 340 in Oak Bay in the North Channel. The anchor was set in mud over rock, and a 180 shift from a passing front (20 knots from the SW shifted to 30 from the NE) pulled out the anchor. It reset after dragging about 100 feet. I was on deck when the shift hit, and paid out some extra rode to give the anchor a better chance to reset. Also we knew the front was coming, so we were anchored with shelter from the NE.
We always anchor on a windward shore. So excitement usually comes from a wind shift. And a wind shift wakes me up to check the ground tackle, and the GPS to be sure we are holding. We have moved to a different anchorage a couple of times after a shift, but that was for comfort rather than safety.
A last thought is that you can dive on your anchor to be sure it is set. This is especially fun in the Bahamas or similar areas. That also lets you be sure that your chain is not destroying precious coral, or that your tackle is not fouled in some way.
An 11 pound claw with 11 feet of chain and 300 feet of nylon sounds like a good set-up for a 19 foot, 2000 pound boat anchoring in sand, mud, clay, or coral sand. I don't think the claw is the best for weeds, but we just take more care backing down, and checking a range and the GPS if there are weeds.
Lady Lillie is a 7000 pound 27 footer. We use a 22 pound Bruce with 15 feet of chain and 140 feet of nylon in the sand, clay, and mud (with occasional weeds in late sumer) of the great lakes. We have another 200 feet of nylon, and a Danforth lunch hook. We anchor 10 to 20 nights a summer, and the Bruce has held every time after setting it well by backing down on it. We use a 7:1 scope, or 5:1 if we are chartering with an all chain rode. The only time we had to use less was a crowded anchorage in the San Juans. And that night I didn't sleep well!
The only time we had an anchor move on us at night was a claw on a Hunter 340 in Oak Bay in the North Channel. The anchor was set in mud over rock, and a 180 shift from a passing front (20 knots from the SW shifted to 30 from the NE) pulled out the anchor. It reset after dragging about 100 feet. I was on deck when the shift hit, and paid out some extra rode to give the anchor a better chance to reset. Also we knew the front was coming, so we were anchored with shelter from the NE.
We always anchor on a windward shore. So excitement usually comes from a wind shift. And a wind shift wakes me up to check the ground tackle, and the GPS to be sure we are holding. We have moved to a different anchorage a couple of times after a shift, but that was for comfort rather than safety.
A last thought is that you can dive on your anchor to be sure it is set. This is especially fun in the Bahamas or similar areas. That also lets you be sure that your chain is not destroying precious coral, or that your tackle is not fouled in some way.
Since I have a Bruce 16.5 pound (28' boat) for sale, I kept a page from SAILNET's catalog. They list a Bruce 22 for a 32-footer. 44 pounds for a 46-foot.
It's taken some time to learn but I almost always sleep through the night at anchor. Here are my suggestions:
Use an anchor that's 20lbs or more regardless of boat size. Less than that and it won't cut through grass or weed on the bottom.
The key to sleeping at night is to use an anchor that will reset after a wind shift. While the Danforth is a great holding anchor, it doesn't reset well. My favorites are Rocna, Manson Supreme or Delta (one size up from Lewmar's recommendations).
Use at least 5-1 scope - including the height of the bow roller and the tide. This is much more important than how much chain you use. A 4ft high bow means an extra 20 ft of line. Letting out this much scope will sometimes mean that there isn't room to anchor in the middle of the action. I think a good nights sleep is a fair trade for a longer dinghy ride.
When you enter the anchorage think hard about the most "sleep inducing" spot. Some extra thought now will save a lot of worry later. What happens if the wind changes at night? Will you be exposed to the seas? Will you swing into a shallow spot? In areas with significant tides, what happens at low and high tide. Does that sand spit that's blocking the waves right now submerge and expose you to a long fetch? What about the nearby boats? Boats on a mooring swing in a much smaller circle in a wind shift. Is there enough privacy for you and your neighbors?
I agree that you should set the anchor gently. Let it down and drift back. Snub it a few times to straighten out the line and help it get started. Once the scope is out cleat it and put your hand on the line. You shouldn't feel any bouncing or vibration once it sets. Give it a few minutes to work it's way in. Next, I always back down by putting the engine in reverse at about 1800 RPM and leave it there for a full minute - or more. This is much less force than a 30 knot wind. The anchor line should go bar taught. Nearby buoys or weed should not be moving. There should be no question in your mind that the thing is really, really caught. If there's any question, pull it up and try again. Better at 5PM than 2AM.
Carl
Use an anchor that's 20lbs or more regardless of boat size. Less than that and it won't cut through grass or weed on the bottom.
The key to sleeping at night is to use an anchor that will reset after a wind shift. While the Danforth is a great holding anchor, it doesn't reset well. My favorites are Rocna, Manson Supreme or Delta (one size up from Lewmar's recommendations).
Use at least 5-1 scope - including the height of the bow roller and the tide. This is much more important than how much chain you use. A 4ft high bow means an extra 20 ft of line. Letting out this much scope will sometimes mean that there isn't room to anchor in the middle of the action. I think a good nights sleep is a fair trade for a longer dinghy ride.
When you enter the anchorage think hard about the most "sleep inducing" spot. Some extra thought now will save a lot of worry later. What happens if the wind changes at night? Will you be exposed to the seas? Will you swing into a shallow spot? In areas with significant tides, what happens at low and high tide. Does that sand spit that's blocking the waves right now submerge and expose you to a long fetch? What about the nearby boats? Boats on a mooring swing in a much smaller circle in a wind shift. Is there enough privacy for you and your neighbors?
I agree that you should set the anchor gently. Let it down and drift back. Snub it a few times to straighten out the line and help it get started. Once the scope is out cleat it and put your hand on the line. You shouldn't feel any bouncing or vibration once it sets. Give it a few minutes to work it's way in. Next, I always back down by putting the engine in reverse at about 1800 RPM and leave it there for a full minute - or more. This is much less force than a 30 knot wind. The anchor line should go bar taught. Nearby buoys or weed should not be moving. There should be no question in your mind that the thing is really, really caught. If there's any question, pull it up and try again. Better at 5PM than 2AM.
Carl
I didn't used to sleep well at anchor, waking every once in a while to check. Since we have gotten the Manson Supreme (25# I think) I have slept better than ever. Don't think we've been anchored in anything of 25kts on it yet, but that's the anchor I trust. I have Danforth backup (was replaced by the MS) but I don't trust it near as much and wouldn't sleep well on it I am sure. I am not sure how many feet of chain I have, but I don't feel like it's enough, I will be replacing with more chain at some point.
Ron..
Evans Starzinger & Beth Leonard, world cruisers and authors of numerous books, use a Manson Ray on their boat Hawk. The Ray is a very, very well built and also very expensive claw or Bruce style anchor.
The anchor Beth and Evans use is FIVE times bigger than the Bruce's original sizing recommendation. Bruce suggested that a 44Lb. anchor was suitable for a 47 footer to 30,000 pound displacement which is just foolish. Hawk is 47 feet 30,000 pounds and uses a 112 pound Manson Ray a full five sizes bigger than what was originally suggested by the manufacturer.
Considering a 22Lb. Bruce was originally stated, by the manufacturer, to hold a 41-44 footer to 20,000 pounds and I have personally dragged a well set, with proper scope and chain, 22 pounder on both a Cape Dory 27 and a Catalina 30, on multiple occasions, I think the recommendation of one or two sizes bigger is a minimum safe standard..
Those were the size recommendations from Bruce and were vastly under rated on a sheer holding power basis. There has been much written on the claw or Bruce style of anchor and nearly every review, drag test or real world suggestion is to go one or two sizes bigger.
Evans Starzinger & Beth Leonard, world cruisers and authors of numerous books, use a Manson Ray on their boat Hawk. The Ray is a very, very well built and also very expensive claw or Bruce style anchor.
The anchor Beth and Evans use is FIVE times bigger than the Bruce's original sizing recommendation. Bruce suggested that a 44Lb. anchor was suitable for a 47 footer to 30,000 pound displacement which is just foolish. Hawk is 47 feet 30,000 pounds and uses a 112 pound Manson Ray a full five sizes bigger than what was originally suggested by the manufacturer.
Considering a 22Lb. Bruce was originally stated, by the manufacturer, to hold a 41-44 footer to 20,000 pounds and I have personally dragged a well set, with proper scope and chain, 22 pounder on both a Cape Dory 27 and a Catalina 30, on multiple occasions, I think the recommendation of one or two sizes bigger is a minimum safe standard..
Numlock,
How do you know of "you're safe" if you never actually set the anchor or test how it is set by actually backing down on it? Relying on the anchor to set itself is a dangerous practice to get in the habit ot. Sure in benign summer ocnditions you'll get lucky for a while but when the wind pipes up you may not be as well set as you think..
One should at least try and ascertain if the anchor is set by backing down on it with substantial reverse thrust or you just don't really know for sure. I've helped kedge many a boater off the rocks who set an anchor the way you describe. If your small aux motor can drag your anchor it is absolutely not set.
My 44 HP diesel can create about 500+/- pounds of thrust in reverse at 80% of max throttle. My 33# anchor has been shown in tests to hold in excess of 5000 pounds. If the 500 pounds of thrust my motor supplies, drags my anchor, it is absolutely & positively not set..
Manson Supreme for Me
I use a galvanized 35# Manson Supreme w/ 20' of chain & 200'+ of 5/8" nylon braid on my Beneteau 343 (35'+ & 11500 lbs.).
This replaced the original 22# Delta with which the boat was delivered new. IMHO the Delta was too small for the 343. It would drag in any blow over 20 knots. I did not sleep well unless we were in a well protected anchorage with limited fetch and the forecast was for calm conditions.
Not so the Manson Supreme. This past summer at anchor in the Fairlee Creek on a beautiful Sunday afternoon the winds went from 0 to 30 knots in a heartbeat and sustained for 30 - 45 minutes. I happened to be on the bow, saw the ripples coming up the creek and increased my scope from 6:1 to about 9:1. I started the engine just in case; however, we were 1 of only 4 boats who did not drag.
The next night on the Queenstown Creek a line of thunderstorms blew through after dark. The Admiral went below and slept - I stayed on anchor watch for about 3 hours before I decided we were not going anywhere.
We later spent several nights in solitude on the Dividing Creek and slept lights babies.
I use a galvanized 35# Manson Supreme w/ 20' of chain & 200'+ of 5/8" nylon braid on my Beneteau 343 (35'+ & 11500 lbs.).
This replaced the original 22# Delta with which the boat was delivered new. IMHO the Delta was too small for the 343. It would drag in any blow over 20 knots. I did not sleep well unless we were in a well protected anchorage with limited fetch and the forecast was for calm conditions.
Not so the Manson Supreme. This past summer at anchor in the Fairlee Creek on a beautiful Sunday afternoon the winds went from 0 to 30 knots in a heartbeat and sustained for 30 - 45 minutes. I happened to be on the bow, saw the ripples coming up the creek and increased my scope from 6:1 to about 9:1. I started the engine just in case; however, we were 1 of only 4 boats who did not drag.
The next night on the Queenstown Creek a line of thunderstorms blew through after dark. The Admiral went below and slept - I stayed on anchor watch for about 3 hours before I decided we were not going anywhere.
We later spent several nights in solitude on the Dividing Creek and slept lights babies.
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