Part 2 - Looking For A Sailboat - Suggestions?

Allan R · Sep 18, 2009

Why don't you contact a reputable broker and work through him/her to find a boat that would fit your needs and budget? You are going to get as many different opinions as there are uers here.

nodachi · Sep 18, 2009

From the content of your post I'd guess you're in a higer income bracket than me - which isn't difficult to accomplish!!! - but the question about how to find the right boat is universal, so...

I bought my boat in July and I'm very happy with her despite all the grim warnings that "a boat is a hole in the water you pour money into" and "the 2 happiest days of your life are when...etc." (Please note that these warnings didn't come from sailors although from an occasional "boater".)

If your passion is sailing - and only you know the truth - then the questions you should ask must be to yourself and then you'll find the right boat.

Although a sense of pride does accompany boat ownership if ostentatiousness is your sole objective, you may do better to simply have one custom designed and then wait the 10 seconds it will take for someone to do you better.

Where are you going to sail? What are your long term plans for sailing? Will you have a crew? If you're interested in racing then you should research the specs for various racers and figure out what you can or are willing to spend in that category. If you're a cruiser, the same would apply except you may want to take into consideration comfort and entertaining capabilities. In other words, you have to determine what aspect of sailing interests you most and then start doing your homework to find the boat that best responds.

You're asking questions and should continue asking and even asking the same questions; and I suggest mentally begin keeping like a tally of the answers and after a while the answers won't seem so diverse and you'll gradually see a pattern emerge and that's when you've reached a point where you'll pretty much know what you're doing. And by all means take your time and it will pay off. I was told that and it was true.

André R. · Sep 18, 2009

I agree with Allan. Depends a lot on your sailing area or waters, skills and ability, comfort and/or performance needs, mid and long term plans (sailing around the bay, sabatical year, circumnavigation, etc.) and the budget, of course.
When I bought my H34, I did my class as we say here, visit a lot of boats, talked to a lot of brokers, found one in Beverly, who understood and answered my needs.

André
S/V Wind Spirit 3
Lake Champlain, NY
Hunter 34 1983

dserrell · Sep 18, 2009

BobM · Sep 18, 2009

I agree with Allan. The only way to look for a boat is to get out there and judge for yourself. It isn't strictly quality that drives the decision, it is also design and like it or not, design is a very personal decision. Only by seeing boats will you gain the knowledge you need to make a reasonable decision you and perhaps your partner can live with. It is always a compromise in some way. I'll go even further and say that it really is something you have to experience. Asking people for opinions of boats they haven't owned won't gain you much. In some ways, asking people their opinion about boats they DO own is problematic, as it can be difficult to get an honest review of the good and the bad from some folks.

On paper and after seening the exterior of many of them I was sure I would like to buy an O'day 28. I finally looked one over and it was way too small a jump from my L25 and lacked the head room I needed for my 6" 0" foot frame.

Even then you may change your mind. I then became very enamoured of the design of Newport 30. An older one had the wettest decks the surveyor had ever seen and severe oil canning in the hull behind the keel. Newer models have a weaker keel design that perhaps contributed to severe grounding damage on one I looked at. I loved the boat design, but what appeared to be marginal construction, and a lack of many of them on the east coast to look at, ultimately drove me away.

Ultimately we refined our mental model of what we were looking for. We had started by looking at a 30 foot Cape Dory Intrepid, a modern design with great build quality, but I didn't want a Volvo MD-8 and my Wife felt that the interior was dark. We both liked a tee shaped cockpit and that became a must have. I also really liked an interior design that allowed vee berth access without using the head for a passage. The tee eliminated Catalina 30's in our price range, as they were late adopters of the tee design. Most of the Hunter 30's (Hunter was an early adopter of the tee) I saw were in poor shape and later Models like the H31, really seemed to suffer from significant build quality issues. I also am not a big fan of their swept back spreaders.

So I found the S2 9.2A, which has perhaps better than average build quality, the open passage to the vee and a tee shaped cockpit. I had to look at a few, but ultimately decided to pay more for a 2 cyl diesel over a cheaper boat with a 1 cyl. I ended up buying the most expensive, but best kept boat on the market at the time and it STILL needed some work. But that is the nature of a used boat.

You need to start with a good general education of what constitutes good and bad and what the design differences are. You then need to consider what type of sailing you will do 80% of the time and buy the boat that suits that and you. It has been said on here many times and it is true. There are many beautiful boats out there that I admire, but wouldn't own because of where I sail and how i sail. Lots of teak is gorgeous, but it is also lots of work. A full keel will track like it is on rails...unless the wind is so light in your cruising area you can't get the boat to move.

I suggest you do what I did. Buy a boat. Now. Not the perfect boat. Just a boat. I bought a Lancer 25 for $1000. It wasn't pretty and it wasn't fast. But I had a boat. I figured that if I couldn't figure out my $1000 boat I didn't deserve more and really didn't know what I needed / wanted anyway due to an abject lack of experience. I figured it out and then bought my "dream" boat.

dserrell · Sep 18, 2009

Ahoy again Ducati,

One last thing I forgot to mention. When purchasing an older boat, besides getting a survey, you may want to take a good look at all the equipment that's onboard. Although we have an older very small trailerable sailboat, it came with lots of expensive extras. When I say expensive, well not so much for a small sailboat, but for a much larger 38'-41' sailboat some equipment gets very expensive, i.e. bimini, dodger, liferaft, watermaker, auxillary generator, bow thruster, dinghy, davits, solar panels, wind generator, electronics, air conditioning, cockpit cushions, and the list goes on and on. Be sure sure to look at all the extras, because they really add up!

When we purchased our small sailboat, the cost was about what the extras were worth. In other words, the boat was free! The trailer, motor, bimini, teak cockpit floor, autopilot, improvements to the rigging, roller furling and headsails, cockpit cushions, porta potti, and other extras were worth the cost for what we paid. We've made lots of upgrades, because the boat was a high quality trailerable sailboat to start with. Now we have our dream trailerable sailboat. So you may find a seller who's really gone overboard with extras, which will be your gain, when you find your dream sailboat, i.e. yacht! Good luck!

David

txtowman · Sep 18, 2009

Bob is right on! I got my catalina 22 for a song. it has its problems so I am learning to do the repairs and upgrades myself. If I screw it up I can part it out or give it away.

worst case I sink it and let the salvager have it. Its already paid for itself in fun and education.

There is a lot of donated boats for sale on Ebay. best of luck! Sid

BobM · Sep 18, 2009

I told the guy who bought my old boat that there is nobody that will be having more fun out there than him per dollar spent.

David is right on too. Comparing used boats is not apples and apples. Each case is different and you must consider the extras on board, as well as what you want. This can also be important if you are getting a loan, as the equipment is then rolled into the loan and not purchased out of pocket. Also keep in mind that interest from a boat loan can be written off like vacation home, if you don't have one already.

For me, the ideal S2 would have come equipped with new or recent sails, including main, a 135 and a drifter with a chute. A bimini. Serviceable electronics, including an autopilot and a color GPS plotter. A winter cover.

I got all of those except for the bimini. I added a nice cockpit table. To be perfect (to me) the boat needs new fixed ports and a new forward hatch. The teak and holly sole replaced. The fuel and water tanks replaced (I knew about the fuel when I bought her, but the water is a new addition). I am also moving the GPS from the coaming to a new curved guard at the helm.

I bought a 20K boat that came with a $1500 custom winter cover (saves $500/year on shrink wrapping) and a new $2000 North Main, a $500 GPS chart plotter, new lazy jacks, a recent autopilot...etc...but original cushions and a 10 year old, but serviceable 135 and a new drifter with a sock. I was looking at a $15K sister ship with $3000 of new interior cushions, but she had a 1 cyl instead of 2 cyl (I polled folks here whether I should go 1 or 2 cyl for a few thou more and everyone said buy the 2 cyl hands down) obviously been on the hard for years...and still is...and it is still on yachtworld at the same price.

John · Sep 18, 2009

Investment

It seems to me that there are two questions being combined here:
1)What's the "best" boat for enjoying yourself/sailing; and (2)what's the best boat as far as an investment. As for the second question, the best boat for an investment, bar none, would be a six inch long plastic boat that you could play with in the bathtub. True, you won't make any money out of it, but it won't cost you very much. Forget about the investment part; if you're looking to invest money/make money out of something that you do for pleasure, maybe buying land in the country would work, but not boating, in my opinion.

As for the first question - as has been stressed so often by so many, it entirely depends on your needs. We have a Catalina 36. I feel it's a great boat for sailing the bay and some coastal cruising. There are lots of boats that would probably be better, if you can spend the money on them.

As for buying an older or newer boat - I think this depends a lot on the condition of the boat, equipment it has, etc.

Stu Jackson · Sep 18, 2009

Lots of angles here

Many great posts and thoughtfully presented. This is one of the better group of answers to this constantly recurring question. The "what's the best..." anything for me to buy question always has me scratching my head: why would anyone ask a question in that way, but that's another story that simply has to do with the amount of trust one puts in complete strangers' qualifications; as you hang around here, ducati, you'll find that this is a very qualified and helpful group of people.

Only thing to add to what have been fine responses: the very same boat in different parts of the country may give you different sailing options. Here's a real world example: Catalina 34. Are you a racer or a cruiser? Don't know yet? OK, let's say you don't know but want to have a choice after you've bought the boat. If you sail in the Chesapeake, you will NOT have a choice, because the C34 Fleet 12 there NEVER races as a one design group. If you like PHRF you MAY be able to race. If, however, you buy a boat on San Francisco Bay, you have a choice with Fleet 1, because for the past 20 years they have almost always had enough boats (min. 5) to hold their own one-design races within other major Bay races, as well as their own National and annual regattas. Sailing one-design, even with our own "internal" handicaps (i.e., folding props, furling jibs, jib sizes, etc.) I think racing one-design is so much more fulfilling because you're closer to the other boats during the day.

So, evaluate what you can afford, get more specific, buy something with good reason, which will get you going on learning what features WORK FOR YOU. That comment about liking a boat, but then getting on it and learning that headroom didn't work, makes all the fancy brochures pretty interesting but only a first step.

JoelHoover · Sep 18, 2009

Don't Blow 6 Figures on a Guess!

Bob is right. Until you get a boat, you don't know what you want!

I thought I wanted a trailer sailor for daysails and cheap storage. I almost dropped $28K for a new MacGregor 26M. Instead I decided to buy a used one for less than the down payment, cash, no financing.

Day sails turned into overnights.

Overnights turned into weeklong trips.

Now I have decided that I no longer need an apartment and Im going liveaboard!

I love my Mac, but I no longer need a trailer sailer.

Time to swap it up for something bigger... with a shower

Get a cheap boat and go sailing. The rest will come to you.

Bill Roosa · Sep 18, 2009

Be a long ranger not a lone ranger

You are going to eventually want a bigger boat. That is a fact I think most of us can agree on.
Given that, buy a boat that can be resold, answers the mail for what you want and where you sail or you can upgrade to get a good ROI and answers the mail for what you want.
Think about how you are intending to use the boat and then think of the logical next level of "commitment".
For instance I started out as a weekend warrior and then the inevitable week long vacation came along and my boat was only slightly not up to the task. But it built the desire to start spending "long weekends" on the boat......
Now I love sailing to the point that I'm going to, someday, sail to the south Pacific.
You don't want the final boat, you want to discover the final boat. What works for me and others will not work for you. I hate air conditioning and don't have it on my boat, others will tell you you have to have it and can't live without it.

dserrell · Sep 18, 2009

Ahoy again and again Ducati,

You've got the benefit of the internet! Back in the days when I was considering purchasing my first cursing sailboat, the internet wasn't available. These Sailors responding to you post are all passionate about sailing, and truely each and everyone of them has a sincere interest in helping you and your wife. I'm amazed at the talent that's responded. Each post has presented an experienced point of view! I'm jealous! Wish I'd have had the access to their knowledge! Would have save many clamshells, and learned lots more about sailing! Welcome aboard!

David

RTMBoston · Sep 18, 2009

dserrell said:
Ahoy again and again Ducati,

You've got the benefit of the internet! Back in the days when I was considering purchasing my first cursing sailboat, the internet wasn't available. These Sailors responding to you post are all passionate about sailing, and truely each and everyone of them has a sincere interest in helping you and your wife. I'm amazed at the talent that's responded. Each post has presented an experienced point of view! I'm jealous! Wish I'd have had the access to their knowledge! Would have save many clamshells, and learned lots more about sailing! Welcome aboard!

David

That's so true David, I have been lurking here for a while trying to soak up information like a sponge. I took my wife sailing a few weeks ago and finally have her blessing to get my own boat. I couldn't imagine trying to go it alone. I'm taking Joel's advice and getting a cheap boat to go sailing, the rest will take care of itself.

dserrell · Sep 18, 2009

Ahoy RTMBoston,

Caution, sailing is addictive! Fantastic that your aspiring Admiral has given you the OK! Congradulations! Welcome aboard! Sailing is a passion!

David

nodachi · Sep 18, 2009

"I couldn't imagine trying to go it alone."

RTMBoston,

I was slightly intimidated but I've since seen that "the rest did take care of itself".

RTMBoston · Sep 18, 2009

Thanks again David and it looks like you made a great choice yourself Nodachi!
Hunter is at the top of my wish list.

bffatcat · Sep 18, 2009

what boat? my 2c

I agree with the guys on this point. Get a starter boat find out what you like and what you
and your mate want. When you ready to purchase a boat for the long haul. There are many many choices. My 2c includes over 50 years of sailboat ownership and racing and cruising experience, repairs, rig tuning, and too much other stuff to list on this post.

After you find out what style of sailing is for you You should be ready to choose your boat
Do not buy a shoddily built boat and get it surveyed by a competent marine surveyor

Bob S · Sep 18, 2009

David,

i like that ComPac 35, what a beautiful boat. Has ane IP look about her.

RTMBoston,

I've read a lot of boat suggestion posts and the response you got from SeaRanch post#2 of your original Looking For A Sailboat - Suggestions? was one of the bestones I've ever read. That guy really did his homework.