Heat generation from Victron DC to DC Charger

[smokey73]

How much heat does the Victron DC to DC Converter charger create using it to charge the LiFePo from the start battery?
I would assume it depends on whether it is charging the LiFePo House Battery at a high current or is in an absorption or float status.

I'm deciding where to put Victron DC to DC charger . Shortest wiring distance would be in the salon under the galley sink (where the LiFePo house battery will be). It is only about 3 feet from the Lithium House Battery to the FLA Start Battery. To get it out of the salon would take about 16 feet one way.

Fire away with comments.

 

[Project_Mayhem]

Have you checked the spec sheet for BTU ratings?

 

[Johann]

The old Orion TR DC-DC charger get pretty hot at max output. Upwards of 165°F for the 12/12V 30A model. They are about 80% efficient. The new Orion XS is around 98% efficient, so it’s much cooler, but I don’t know the exact temp.

 

[dlochner]

Depends on the charger, the larger the current the higher the temp. Look at the efficiency rating for the model you have, higher efficiency units will run cooler than lower efficiency units.

The most important factors are ambient temperature and ventilation. The small engine rooms we have are a usually a poor place for electronics because of the high ambient temperature. While the charger will get warm, it will not produce a lot of BTUs so it can be in a fairly small space, like under the sink and be OK. Make sure there is ample room around the charger for natural ventilation, i.e., don't stick it up in a corner where there is little to no air floor. If the sink area abuts the engine room, mount it as far from the adjoining bulkhead as possible.

Without having been on your boat, it's difficult to make a firm recommendation for locating the charger, however, I would lean towards mounting it closer to the batteries than further away.

 

[jssailem]

The Orion XS complies with ingress protection rating IP65; this means the product is dust-tight and protected against heavy rain.

• Mount vertically on a non-flammable surface, with the power terminals facing downwards.
• For optimum performance, a minimum of 10cm space should be kept free around the product for cooling. With limited cooling, e.g. due to insufficient ventilation, the charging current will be reduced sooner than at the specified maximum ambient temperature. With improved airflow (e.g. forced airflow), the performance will greatly improve.
• With limited cooling or extreme ambient temperature, the charger can become hot (especially the bottom plate). Due to internal temperature control, the heat sink will never get warmer than 90 °C; this is no problem for the charger. Make sure that the mounting surface can withstand this temperature.
• Mount close to the battery but never directly above the battery (to prevent damage from gassing of the battery).

Here is what Victron recommends (XS Orion Manual).
Will the undersink location meet these criteria?

You can always add a fan to the space to improve airflow around the unit if needed.

 

[Davidasailor26]

The old Orion TR DC-DC charger get pretty hot at max output. Upwards of 165°F for the 12/12V 30A model. They are about 80% efficient. The new Orion XS is around 98% efficient, so it’s much cooler, but I don’t know the exact temp.

98% efficient would be about 12 watts of heat dissipation at maximum output. That’s a pretty manageable amount - like a really dim incandescent bulb or a really big LED.

 

[CrispyCringle]

I have dual 30 amp Orion Tr DC to DC chargers. Yesterday they were running full blast as I was making water and motoring. They get hot. very hot. They need to be well ventilated. Mine are mounted on a panel at the edge of the quarter berth. So not in an enclosed space. The newer, and more efficient 50 amp version came out after I had installed the older model. I wish I could have gotten the newer. I guess I still can, but, you know...

 

[Johann]

I wish I could have gotten the newer. I guess I still can, but, you know...

I installed three 40mm fans above the Orion pulling air up through the heat sink. The power is taken from the ignition feed that enables the Orion. Before this I saw a high of 176°F with output dropping to 22A. After adding the fans, the max temperature was 155°F and output was up to 32A.

 

[CrispyCringle]

I installed three 40mm fans above the Orion pulling air up through the heat sink. The power is taken from the ignition feed that enables the Orion. Before this I saw a high of 176°F with output dropping to 22A. After adding the fans, the max temperature was 155°F and output was up to 32A.

Thats a great idea. I completely forgot about the output drop off due to heat. I have mine controlled by the ignition feed as well.

 

[shemandr]

I don't know very much about battery systems but I read with some interest threads about battery issues and systems. And I struggle to understand the in and outs of these systems. Time to ask a stupid question about this thread:
Does anyone think it's sorta bassackwards to charge a LiFePo4 battery with a FLA battery via a DC-DC charger? Wouldn't you want to charge the FLA battery, on occasion, with the LiFePo4 battery with the DC-DC charger? I assume the alternator output would go to the house LiFePo4 battery in that set up. The other way seems like bringing a knife to a gunfight.

 

[Johann]

Does anyone think it's sorta bassackwards to charge a LiFePo4 battery with a FLA battery via a DC-DC charger? Wouldn't you want to charge the FLA battery, on occasion, with the LiFePo4 battery with the DC-DC charger? I assume the alternator output would go to the house LiFePo4 battery in that set up. The other way seems like bringing a knife to a gunfight.

If you have an internally regulated alternator, you wouldn’t want to charge the LFP house with it for a few reasons. First, the alternator may overheat due to how slowly the voltage rises on the LFP during charging. Second, if the LFP is has a BMS disconnect during charging, the alternator diodes may fail. Third, you may damage the LFP during extended motoring if the LFP is full and output voltage is above 13.6V.

So your choices are to replace or convert the alternator to external regulation, or use DC-DC charger(s) with an output around 50% of the rated output of the internally regulated alternator.

 

[dLj]

If you have an internally regulated alternator, you wouldn’t want to charge the LFP house with it for a few reasons. First, the alternator may overheat due to how slowly the voltage rises on the LFP during charging. Second, if the LFP is has a BMS disconnect during charging, the alternator diodes may fail. Third, you may damage the LFP during extended motoring if the LFP is full and output voltage is above 13.6V.

So your choices are to replace or convert the alternator to external regulation, or use DC-DC charger(s) with an output around 50% of the rated output of the internally regulated alternator.

Agreed.

However, sure seems penny wise and pound foolish to me. If upgrading to LiFePo batteries, going to externally regulated then allows you to control your alternator output to conserve your alternators and allows you to keep your lead acid batteries always fully charged via the DC to DC from house to lead acid. Keeps your lead acid batteries healthy for longer, as they are never at a partial state of charge for any appreciable time. Takes advantage of the LiFePo system, makes for easier system monitoring, easier expansion to more charging sources, lots of advantages. The only advantage seems to me not doing this is initial installation cost. I can't see any other advantage.

dj

 

[smokey73]

Good point @dLj Any good suggestions out there for a good externally regulated alternator that can be adjusted to the correct input for the LiFePo House Battery?

 

[dLj]

Good point @dLj Any good suggestions out there for a good externally regulated alternator that can be adjusted to the correct input for the LiFePo House Battery?

I just converted both of my alternators (my engine had two) to be externally regulated and used a Wakespeed 500 external regulator. I didn't change my alternators. @dlochner often recommends another one, that I can't think of the name of right now, which also would work. If you want more details, just let me know and i'll look up my circuit diagrams and give you more specifics.

dj

 

[dlochner]

Some alternators can be easily changed from an internal regulation to external regulation, if you have a Yanmar with a Hitachi drive, this is not one that can be easily modified.

There are 2 State of the Art external regulators on the market, Wakespeed and Arco Zeus. Both are good regulators and can be programmed to properly charge LFP batteries. I'm partial to the Zeus because can be set to use engine power more efficiently based on the engine's RPM and power curve.

Wakespeed is in a tough place right now. A few years ago it was bought by Dragonfly Energy who also make BattleBorn LFP batteries. There is considerable controversy about the construction of some BB batteries which is relevant to the financial stability of the company. I doubt the company will survive much longer, especially as some the come out in a suit filed by Dragonfly Energy against Will Prowse. I'd be inclined to steer clear of Wakespeed until the dust settles.

Balmar does make a less expensive and less feature rich regulator, the 618. It is pretty basic and it works, just not as well as the other two regulators. Programming the 618 without the BlueTooth module, can be a trying and miserable experience. With the BT module it is pretty simple and straightforward.

 

[dLj]

Some alternators can be easily changed from an internal regulation to external regulation, if you have a Yanmar with a Hitachi drive, this is not one that can be easily modified.

This is correct, however, it can be done. There is a modual that you put in them that you can convert them. I had to do that with both my alternators.

There are 2 State of the Art external regulators on the market, Wakespeed and Arco Zeus. Both are good regulators and can be programmed to properly charge LFP batteries. I'm partial to the Zeus because can be set to use engine power more efficiently based on the engine's RPM and power curve.

I am not sure the Zeus was available when I did my system. But I'm not sure about that.

Wakespeed is in a tough place right now. A few years ago it was bought by Dragonfly Energy who also make BattleBorn LFP batteries. There is considerable controversy about the construction of some BB batteries which is relevant to the financial stability of the company. I doubt the company will survive much longer, especially as some the come out in a suit filed by Dragonfly Energy against Will Prowse. I'd be inclined to steer clear of Wakespeed until the dust settles.

Yeah, I bought my Wakespeed prior to this - I actually bought two for redundancy as I didn't want to be in the middle of the ocean and have a problem with my Wakespeed - it is the heart of my system. Both were programed for my system so it would be a simple plug and play so to speak. I was not too happy when the original company was bought out but I'm set at this point.

Balmar does make a less expensive and less feature rich regulator, the 618. It is pretty basic and it works, just not as well as the other two regulators. Programming the 618 without the BlueTooth module, can be a trying and miserable experience. With the BT module it is pretty simple and straightforward.

I did look at the Balmar - definitely not up to the level of the other two. I will say that Wakespeed 500 is absolutely fantastic and I've had 0 problems with mine. No experience or knowledge of the Zeus.

dj

 

[colemj]

If the alternator is an OEM Hitachi 60A, don't waste the time, effort, and money converting it to external. There just isn't enough gain to be made there.

If you have converted a small alternator with output <100A, then there is no reason to get an expensive regulator like the Wakespeed or Zeus. There is nothing they offer over a 1/3 priced Balmar regulator, because you will never be using the engine speed adjustment curves and other functions that the Balmar doesn't have. You might want easier programming or more integrated communications, but those cost/feature decisions would be personal.

We have a 275A alternator using a Balmar regulator. This size of alternator on smaller engines could definitely take advantage of the more expensive regulator features. Our 55hp engine has no problem with full output throughout its range, so not an issue for us. But we still use the Balmar's 50% field feature normally when motoring, and turn it off when we want to use it for quicker battery charging - usually at anchor. That 50% switch is really easy to implement to use with a smaller engine's alternator when you need the top range of its power.

As for programming, yes, the Balmar regulator without bluetooth is a frustrating experience. With the bluetooth it is a breeze, but that almost doubles the price. However, the Wakespeed requires a PC and DOS command line programming, so it isn't much better (this may have changed since last I looked). The Zeus is easy as long as you understand the features and how they operate.

Mark

 

[dLj]

If the alternator is an OEM Hitachi 60A, don't waste the time, effort, and money converting it to external. There just isn't enough gain to be made there.

I think any alternator connected to LiFePo batteries should be externally regulated. Any alternator running for a significant amount of time at 100% output is not going to live long compared to controlling that output to about 50%.

If you have converted a small alternator with output <100A, then there is no reason to get an expensive regulator like the Wakespeed or Zeus. There is nothing they offer over a 1/3 priced Balmar regulator, because you will never be using the engine speed adjustment curves and other functions that the Balmar doesn't have. You might want easier programming or more integrated communications, but those cost/feature decisions would be personal.

I don't use engine speed adjustments on my Wakespeed - not sure it even has that option, I don't think it does, that seems to be the realm of the Zeus. There is a new model Wakespeed - I haven't looked at it's functions. For me the biggest advantage you haven't mentioned - I use the output power being ramped down when nearing the end of charging. For the last part of the charging cycle the output from the alternators are ramped down from the 50% to about 10% then down again to about 1% and then if the engine is still running, it's shuts down the alternator output. A really nice feature to help cool down the alternators at the end of the charging cycle.

We have a 275A alternator using a Balmar regulator. This size of alternator on smaller engines could definitely take advantage of the more expensive regulator features. Our 55hp engine has no problem with full output throughout its range, so not an issue for us. But we still use the Balmar's 50% field feature normally when motoring, and turn it off when we want to use it for quicker battery charging - usually at anchor. That 50% switch is really easy to implement to use with a smaller engine's alternator when you need the top range of its power.

I would never run my alternators at 100% output for more than a few minutes in any case. But I never run them there the way I have my system setup. They go to 50% max output at all times so this feature on the balmar would be useless for me.

As for programming, yes, the Balmar regulator without bluetooth is a frustrating experience. With the bluetooth it is a breeze, but that almost doubles the price. However, the Wakespeed requires a PC and DOS command line programming, so it isn't much better (this may have changed since last I looked). The Zeus is easy as long as you understand the features and how they operate.

Mark

For sure the vintage Wakespeed's I have took a fair bit of programming time and it was not painless. Took several iterations to get them exactly as I wanted. I don't know anything about the Zeus.

dj

 

[colemj]

I think any alternator connected to LiFePo batteries should be externally regulated. Any alternator running for a significant amount of time at 100% output is not going to live long compared to controlling that output to about 50%.

No argument there. My point was that the Hitachi 60A should never be connected to lithium at all. The only way to do that is to externally regulate it, and doing that is a waste of time and money.

I don't use engine speed adjustments on my Wakespeed - not sure it even has that option, I don't think it does, that seems to be the realm of the Zeus. There is a new model Wakespeed - I haven't looked at it's functions. For me the biggest advantage you haven't mentioned - I use the output power being ramped down when nearing the end of charging. For the last part of the charging cycle the output from the alternators are ramped down from the 50% to about 10% then down again to about 1% and then if the engine is still running, it's shuts down the alternator output. A really nice feature to help cool down the alternators at the end of the charging cycle.

This confuses me. Your description is how all regulators work. They do so because the battery accepts less current as it becomes full, so all regulators automatically ramp down the output accordingly. For all external regulators, including the Balmar, once float is reached, the alternator output is effectively shut down (or operates at the set float voltage if one has programmed that to be higher).

I would never run my alternators at 100% output for more than a few minutes in any case. But I never run them there the way I have my system setup. They go to 50% max output at all times so this feature on the balmar would be useless for me.

On the Balmar, you just set it to run at 50% then (or whatever % you want). I was describing a Balmar feature that allows one to cut the field from its normal setting (which doesn't have to be 100%) to a set 50%.

The worry about operating an alternator at 100% into lithium batteries should be more situational. It isn't a hard rule, and depends on the alternator and environmental conditions. Our 275A alternator will run at 100% all day (which when hot is 230A) and never go above 80C. However, it is a larger frame alternator designed for more heat, and there is a 4" blower bringing outside air directly to it.

Limiting an alternator's output without first exploring cooling options is a bit of a bodge. You would be surprised at the gain a bit of cool air blowing on it gives. Of course, one can go to more extremes with an external rectifier and shrouded cooling, but by then, I'd probably just limit the output unless I was regularly using it as a generator.

Mark

 

[Johann]

I don't use engine speed adjustments on my Wakespeed - not sure it even has that option, I don't think it does, that seems to be the realm of the Zeus.

The Wakespeed has the ability to adjust output based on RPM, as does the Zeus. The Zeus just has an easier interface (from the old Wakespeed anyway). The nice feature the Zeus has that WS doesn’t is ”Generator mode” that ignores any RPM pullback. This is useful when charging at anchor.