How do we know what we know? A question for the ages.

[dlochner]

People often come to internet forums to seek answers and solutions to problems they are experiencing. SBO is no exception, we all see many new and old owners asking those kind of questions.

The internet is noted for being both a great source of good information and perhaps more noted for being a great source for misinformation and just plain wrong information. How do we tell the difference? Who should we rely on for information?

Where do you get your information about sailing? How as community can we sort the wheat from the chafe? What standards should we apply to information provided in a thread? And of course, we need to do this without turning a thread into a middle school lunchroom insult brawl.

Let's hear it.

 

[duck21]

I'll keep this mostly SBO/sailing oriented, but at a higher level I think this is a fair (and philosophical) question that is highly applicable to everything out there on the internet. Obviously I'm going to write from my experiences, but I may make some extrapolations here too.

I'm a late Gen X'er (mid-40's), so grew up pre-internet (80's and early 90's) but then went through the "online" transition as I came of age (my first internet experiences were when I went to college in the late 90's). My early experiences in life involved having to "figure things out" via library books, trial and error, or finding an "expert" (in person, since online didn't exist). I think this combination of adolescent learning plus access to information as I got older meant that I hit a sweet spot of learning on my own and THEN was provided with a worlds worth of information that could be applied to the projects at hand. I like to think that the "learning on my own" period helps me quickly separate the relevant information from misinformation or ideas that are presented but aren't necessarily the best (trying to be gentle here)...this ability is highly relevant in forums here just as much as it is in my career (a career for which I had no formal training but have been moderately successful).

Unfortunately, I think later generations are not as good as this separation--they see info and immediately jump to "belief" because it's presented as "fact" even if it's a singular experience. I see this with my 20 year old daughter -- she's a smart kid, but easily buys into Tik Tok trends and other things because it reinforces her beliefs and is presented as fact. We're working on that, and she's getting more discerning, but not everyone has someone to guide them and she didn't have those earlier life experiences when "information" wasn't so easy to find.

Here's the list of things that run through MY mind when I seek out and read/process information from the internet (including this forum and sailing related info). This is in no particular order, and not all apply to every topic, but generally all will stand:

Who is the person relating the information? What is their background, what is their experience? In this forum this can be obtained by reading their brief biographical information and clicking on their name to see what other information they have contributed (and reading that some of those postings). Volume of postings does not mean they are experts, but you can quickly get a sense of whether a person provides facts/details/information consistently and reliably (and sometimes see background information to substantiate their level of expertise)

Is the information being provided verifiable? Before jumping into any project based from info online I'll do a Google search for the topic. Is there a history of posts on the topic in this/other forums? Is other information available (manuals/documentation, How-To's, white papers, guides). Does the information someone is providing match or align with this information?

What is the risk of the thing that is being suggested? I'm going to spend way more time researching how to install a through hull that might sink my boat then I am going to spend time researching the a suggested LED bulb or how to replace a light fixture. Not that there isn't important info, but one can sink the boat and the other is annoying if it doesn't work.

Related to the previous, what is the cost of the thing being suggested? If someone throws out a suggestion that might burn up my fridge or AC compressor I'm going to spend more time reading and scouring for info then I am if it's something that I can break/replace for minimal cost.

Does the thing that's being suggested make sense? I realize that this somewhat relies on common sense. And sometimes one doesn't know enough to KNOW that the thing doesn't make sense. But I'm of the opinion that for most of us "DIY" folks the goal isn't just a quick fix but it's to learn about the tool and the systems at hand. Sometimes this means deep diving into more internet forums and wiki's and how-to's to learn the ins and outs of a system (applying all of the tests listed above) but in the end this (hopefully) means that a deeper understanding of the systems behind the thing being suggested can help you determine whether the thing being advocated actually makes sense.

And, of course, at times, it's all of this plus having to just sit down, take all the information collected, some common sense, and a few tools, and actually seeing how this can apply to the situation at hand. Case in point, my recent thread about Adler Barbour refrigerator wiring (where my sea pump wasn't working properly and my compressor wasn't always engaging).

I queried the forum, suggestions were made. I did some research on who was posting, looked at schematics, fact checked against other internet searches, reached out to the vendor, gathered the manuals and documentation I had, then spent 4 hours with a multimeter and wires and relays to put all that info together to make the system work (this isn't said as a "pat me on the back" but as an example of things above). Now that it's working I'm continuing to take in more info and come up with ideas on how I could refine things. I've posted a schematic and drawings of what worked for me, but fully expect that anyone else looking at forums will want to look into MY background, my postings, and my projects that I've previously referenced to see if what I am suggesting makes sense, if I can be considered reliable, etc.

I don't know that we can police a forum, per se. In that sense, we'd lose the sense of community and it would quickly become more of a "wiki" or "how to" type site. This may mean that some folks post bogus info. I do think it's possible to politely refute that info. I do think too, though, that sometimes even inexperienced folks can come up with workable/creative solutions to problems that even experts can appreciate. Editing or moderating information may end up quashing some of those moments.

The hard part is, of course, when folks ask a question expecting a quick/easy solution. If you want quick/easy (relatively then DIY (and web forums)) probably aren't the way to go. You'll probably have to pay an expert for that. But I don't think the majority of forum "regulars" have that sort of expectation. They (we) are here to learn and appreciate the complexities of the systems with which we are playing and the enjoyment that can be had in our boats and the myriad of components that make them work.

That's my mini essay (for now), anyway. Hopefully it was relevant.

I'm curious how others approach things. A fun question!

Doug

 

[BigEasy]

People often come to internet forums to seek answers and solutions to problems they are experiencing.Where do you get your information about sailing?

I synthesize information from a variety of sources & then formulate a course of action after a thorough review. There are many experts in the field who offer sound advice in general; however, perhaps not specific to your application. You know their names; they have published books written in their area(s) of expertise. Manufacturers are another source of valuable information; however, one must be careful, because suppliers promote their products, some good & some not so good. The internet offers unlimited sources of information at sites such as SBO, You Tube, etc. Most of the contributors are everyday people, not “experts”; however, they do provide valuable information that is pertinent to your issue for which you are seeking help. They offer procedures, part numbers & sources as well as “tips & tricks” & their successes & failures.
Even when you don’t know, in most cases, there are multiple sources of information to help educate yourself about a given topic. Of course, you shouldn’t accept information blindly; due diligence is still necessary. In some cases, you may decide that the expertise required for a given task is beyond your capability and hire an expert to address the problem....good luck with that. In other instances you undertake the task yourself, thoroughly researching & proceeding. If you are successful, you are now an “expert” and have the credentials to post on SBO!

 

[danm1]

Skipping the funny but long story, my father taught me never to trust anyone, not even him. Checking multiple sources is the only way to go. It's also important to think about how the sources/experts came to be. My wife recently took an old sewing machine to be fixed by an acknowledged expert who won't touch a machine with modern electronics. She has another expert for the newer machine. Both are authorities on sewing machines, but....
Anyway, as for forums, it often comes down to the ability to communicate clearly as much as expertise. I often see experts reply to a specific question about a specific model of equipment by starting with basic troubleshooting questions for generic equipment when a Google search readily shows that it is a common issue for the specific model asked about. People want to help, but don't know what they don't know.

 

[dlochner]

Skipping the funny but long story, my father taught me never to trust anyone, not even him.

There is an old Russian saying, "Trust, but Verify." Reagan used it during the nuclear arms negations with the Russians.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trust,_but_verify

 

[Don S/V ILLusion]

Simple - Due diligence.

 

[Davidasailor26]

Is the information being provided verifiable?

For me this is a big discriminator between reliable info and guesses or hearsay. When I’m replying to a controversial topic as often as possible I try to quote and cite more authoritative sources like owners manuals or well reputed experts and publications.

I asked a technical question of a generative AI model today - a task not too different from going to forums in terms of how you can “trust” the results. I don’t often do this since I’m usually too afraid of hallucinations or general misinformation, but I was in a hurry and the topic was more of a curiosity than a serious purpose. The response sounded plausible but don’t they all? Then at the end of the response was a link to an authoritative source, a vendor’s website, that I could skim to validate the key points. In the end it saved me time and I was able to trust what I had read.

As far as applying standards in a thread, I think the forum organically solves this problem in most threads without policing. When a questionable post is made the community comes through with compelling and well cited retorts, especially on safety critical issues. Maybe not every thread goes that way, but to me having the questionable info followed by better replies can be even better than just going straight to the right answer - it helps the OP see more of the thought process and pros and cons of each approach, it keeps us out of “group think”, and sometimes it leads to interesting tangents that I learn even more from. I know of at least one FB group with many experts that moderates heavily and sets out to keep the group as a reference library or scientific journal rather than a forum. I appreciate that and there’s definitely a place for it, but I’m glad this is different in its own way.

 

[dLj]

People often come to internet forums to seek answers and solutions to problems they are experiencing. SBO is no exception, we all see many new and old owners asking those kind of questions.

The internet is noted for being both a great source of good information and perhaps more noted for being a great source for misinformation and just plain wrong information. How do we tell the difference? Who should we rely on for information?

Where do you get your information about sailing? How as community can we sort the wheat from the chafe? What standards should we apply to information provided in a thread? And of course, we need to do this without turning a thread into a middle school lunchroom insult brawl.

Let's hear it.

An interesting question.

I feel there are several levels both in where I look for information/answers and in how I interpret the information.

In the area where I look for information/answers - I'm not including here direct conversations with people I know that are excellent sailors - your question seems focused on forums and the internet:
1) There are specific subjects where there are text books/reference books.
2) There are specific subjects where there exist consensus standards.
3) There are areas where there are "accepted" best practices. This area includes manufacturers "claims" or information. This also includes AI, although AI can be useful sometimes in identifying the above 3 areas - it depends upon the subject.
4) There are areas where a lot of opinions exist, but little to no reference data.
5) There are "best guess" areas.

How I go about interpreting information:
A) I first look for text books/reference data and any applicable consensus standards.
B) I look for "accepted" best practices.
C) I read opinions and listen to "best guesses" but look to see if I can apply fundamental concepts - like the laws of physics, thermodynamics, solid engineering grounds - those kinds of things, and then weigh against the "best guess" to ascertain "validity".
D) Historical knowledge that I have gained myself through direct experience. ( I place this last as you are asking about how one goes about looking for information, and if I have existing knowledge, I'm not likely looking, but I might be looking through old notes or things I've done in the past that I know I did, but don't remember exactly something about it that I want to look back up.)

Regarding the information available through AI, the internet and forums - there it depends upon the specific subject. Modern electronic devices typically only have areas 3) through 5) as source information. Utilizing the internet and forums, it takes a lot of time to learn who the posters are, what they seem to know a lot about, and what they don't. There are always some posters that simply have some kind of agenda - I usually ignore those. (The subject of composting heads comes to mind - there are "haters" that always say the same idiotic derogatory comments...)

One particular area that the internet and forums are really bad at is metallurgy. It's incredible to listen to all the mistaken ideas, bad information, and just pain wrong information in this subject area. The marine industry is particularly bad...

One of the big complicating factors in interpreting opinions expressed in forums or on the internet, is that often there are several ways to do something, several of them may be "right", but you have to figure out which works for your current problem...

dj

 

[twodzusfittings]

"Going where no man has gone before can be a scary road.
Sharing that road, with someone, is carrying half the load.
The gift of giving your experiences and helping others, is in its self, a great reward.
May the curious and those that ask the questions, share their experiences, later down that path.
May that path be paved so well, to provide us knowledge upon we can richly dwell."

Written this morning before my first cup of coffee........

 

[thinwater]

Filters. Multiple sources. Experimentation and testing. Mistakes of your own.

 

[jdrutten]

I've found this forum to be an invaluable source of information. In giving weight to a particular post, I will look to the indication of total number of posts for an account (I'm still working my way past 200 posts), as well any "Like," "Helpful," etc. flair tags that have been added.

One potential modification here would be the addition of a "Dislike" tag (or similar). Reddit uses anonymous upvotes and downvotes to provide a quick indication of the group's opinion of a particular post. Votes are then accumulated for an account and indicated as account "karma." Something like that could be used here to quickly sort through a long thread to find the "best" posts. Voting could be restricted to accounts with some minimum number of posts or karma in order to discourage trolls. I'm not sure how it might affect a middle school insult brawl, but something like that might be useful.

Mistakes of your own.

I'm an expert on this one.

 

[thinwater]

Personally, I would not add a dislike tag. I understand the point, but I'd rather just leave it be. What does a dislike mean, anyway, if correction is not offered? I just don't like the person? "Like" is supportive.

I don't want this to become Quara, where the most popular (and very often dead wrong) answer becomes "truth." Often the real pearls on sailing forums are little known, counter intuitive facts or opinions, and are not the best known. Very seldom do you get a full answer to a complex question on a forum. More often that would take a book or at least an article--forum posts are too short and blunt. You look for ideas that will guide you towards further research.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

As far as applying standards in a thread, I think the forum organically solves this problem in most threads without policing. When a questionable post is made the community comes through with compelling and well cited retorts, especially on safety critical issues. Maybe not every thread goes that way, but to me having the questionable info followed by better replies can be even better than just going straight to the right answer - it helps the OP see more of the thought process and pros and cons of each approach, it keeps us out of “group think”, and sometimes it leads to interesting tangents that I learn even more from. I know of at least one FB group with many experts that moderates heavily and sets out to keep the group as a reference library or scientific journal rather than a forum. I appreciate that and there’s definitely a place for it, but I’m glad this is different in its own way.

There are usually gray areas in every topic and often "more than one way to skin a cat". We can often learn just as much from "wrong" answers as we do from "right" answers. Group think is the antithesis of knowledge and progress. Standards, like regulations can be useful if carefully considered. Bluntly used, standards and regulations stifle curiosity and creativity. Where there is no need for standards, why consider?

 

[dlochner]

Filters. Multiple sources. Experimentation and testing. Mistakes of your own.

Earlier today I read a post on another thread that made a statement about IQ. Well, being a retired school psychologist whose bread and butter was administering IQ test, I was started to compose a response to correct some of her misperceptions, then I thought better, it is nearly impossible to explain IQ scores and how they are derived to a lay person in a short and sweet forum response. Thanks for the laugh.

 

[Dave]

I've found this forum to be an invaluable source of information. In giving weight to a particular post, I will look to the indication of total number of posts for an account (I'm still working my way past 200 posts), as well any "Like," "Helpful," etc. flair tags that have been added.

One potential modification here would be the addition of a "Dislike" tag (or similar). Reddit uses anonymous upvotes and downvotes to provide a quick indication of the group's opinion of a particular post. Votes are then accumulated for an account and indicated as account "karma." Something like that could be used here to quickly sort through a long thread to find the "best" posts. Voting could be restricted to accounts with some minimum number of posts or karma in order to discourage trolls. I'm not sure how it might affect a middle school insult brawl, but something like that might be useful.


I'm an expert on this one.

Good discussion. I"ve enjoyed reading it.

I want to respond to the "likes" question. A few years ago my predecessor polled the membership about likes. At the time there was concern about members posting a lot just to get likes and he wanted to know if members liked likes or not. As a result likes were continued and a "Helpful" reaction emoji was added. There is a thread somewhere in the archives on this.

Currently there are 5 options, Like, Helpful, Wow, HaHa, and Sad, while not very nuanced they pretty much cover the range of positive reactions. It was recently suggested that we add a "Poop" emoji to the reactions, I declined to do so. I would do the same if a thumbs down option was suggested.

The forum's founder @Phil Herring tried to create a positive and supportive forum where members could ask sometimes naive questions and be treated in a civil and dignified manner. The range of reactions we now have pretty much supports Phil's vision. Adding a negative reaction emoji would be inconsistent that vision and has the potential to become pretty abusive. Won't happen on my watch.

From my perspective, the purpose of the reaction scores is to provide information to the poster about his/her post in a quick and simple format. The reaction system can be set up to reward members with badges for the amount of posts or reaction scores, but that shifts the purpose from a quick and simple communication to the poster to earning badges and recognition and earning some kind of status in the community. Again, not on my watch.

Finally, before it's mentioned, SBO will not vet answers to questions or identify bad information, too many issues with that and too costly to implement. So reader, do your due diligence.

Thank you all for participating in SBO forums and the very positive community that you have built.

 

[Calif. Ted]

I don't REALLY expect to be treated with the respect I deserve on the internet ever, but this has always been the least offensive sailing forum I'm aware of.

 

[FastOlson]

In very round numbers.... very.... on each forum that I lurk on there are maybe 10 people whose input I always take note of and strongly consider what they say.
A higher number on the forum (EY.org) that I have participated in for over 20 years, and some very sharp folk here at SBO, and over at SailNet.
Moreover, there are usually several answers to many questions that are somewhat sorta kinda equal.
Good thread!

 

[thinwater]

And then there is the information that changes. A few weeks ago I went to revise the old posts on my blog, and well ... facts changed. I settled on a light edit, changing only the things I noticed that were dangerously false ... even if I was sure when I wrote them. A puzzlement.

This is one of my all time favorites. Change and learning are hard.

The King and I, "Puzzlement " song

 

[Ralph Johnstone]

It was recently suggested that we add a "Poop" emoji to the reactions, I declined to do so.

I don't see why not.

I think it would be quite easy to select this little fellah :

​

................. from the smiley bar and use him for the 'like" or in this case dislike emojis as well. The only difference I would suggest is that when you decide to use the emoji from the smiley bar to indicate a dislike, you would be able to repeat the emoji as many times as desired to fully express the magnitude of your dislike

No need to thank me.

 

[Dave]

I don't see why not.

I think it would be quite easy to select this little fellah :

View attachment 226715
​

................. from the smiley bar and use him for the 'like" or in this case dislike emojis as well. The only difference I would suggest is that when you decide to use the emoji from the smiley bar to indicate a dislike, you would be able to repeat the emoji as many times as desired to fully express the magnitude of your dislike

View attachment 226716

No need to thank me.

Not to worry Ralph, I won't be thanking you. However, if I did add the poop emoji, this post would be the first to get it, perhaps followed by a brief vacation. Being the kind soul that I am, I will allow you time and opportunity to repent.