Advice on instruments

[Cederholm]

Hi all,

I'm refurbishing a 1980 Catalina 30 for coastal cruising in and around Long Island sound. I'm interested in some basic instrumentation and autopilot but I'm overwhelmed and confused when looking through the Defender and West Marine websites. What I would like, windspeed/direction, speed over water, depth and autopilot. Water temp, speed over ground and the ability to connect with a chart plotter (someday) would be bonus.

Looking at something like this,

how do I know which autopilot will work with it?

Thanks for any and all thoughts,
Carl

PS, not apposed to used gear if someone is upgrading.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Hello,

I see you zeroed in on the B&G Triton package with 2 displays. That's absolutely the way to go. You can link that with a NMEA 2000 backbone and integrate the instruments with a chartplotter and a Raymarine Wheel Pilot. B&G doesn't make a wheel pilot so Raymarine is the basic default for this. Under the heading Wheel Pilot System, you will find the EV-100 Wheel Pilot pack with P70 control instrument. This wheel pilot package is everything you need for autopilot. You can pair those items up with the chartplotter of your choice. I bought a B&G Zeus, but the Raymarine Axiom is the equivalent. You can find a bargain on the B&G Vulcan, which is basically the same as the Zeus but with slightly less functionality. One major difference is that the Vulcan is purely touch screen while the Zeus has touch screen and knob control and some faster operating features. The basic functions of Vulcan are identical but at much lower price than Zeus. The integrated sailing features of both the B&G chartplotters and instruments and the Raymarine equivalents are really great!

So, you are lucky that you are starting from scratch and not trying to integrate older models. For instance, all the new Raymarine gear is also using NMEA 2000 protocol, only with their own STng cable format. If you put the B&G chartplotter and the B&G instruments on a devicenet backbone (NMEA 2000), then all you need is the cable that converts STng to Devicenet to connect the wheel pilot to the backbone. It is really very simple when all protocol is NMEA 2000. Not to worry.

Basically, you are looking for an instrument package, a chartplotter, and an autoplot system all integrated. You can do this all with Raymarine very simply as @Ward H can attest. He has it done this way and it is a dream to work. If you want to use B&G, not to worry, it can still be integrated with just the right connections. The Triton displays are multi-function. When you get 2 instruments (that is the package I would choose), you can dedicate one for wind display and the other for speed and depth as your normal usage. But they have so many other features, you will have fun learning the systems. The Raymarine i70 multi-function display is basically the equivalent.

I almost forgot to mention that when you get the Triton package, you also get a NMEA 2000 starter backbone kit & an external GPS antennae, which is useful for the advanced features. You don't need to actually use the external GPS when you are getting started. The chartplotter has GPS built in.

Have fun and good luck! Let us know what you do!

Scott

 

[RitSim]

I had a C30 and didn't want an extensive instrument cluster since i didn't race. I had 2 different Garmin chartplotters that I connected, at separate times, to a Raymarine EV-100 pilot. For the most part I used the autopilot to assist when i was assisting family with raising the main, fooling with the headsail, or going down below for a quick moment. Usually the stuff I needed went on sale in the fall and early spring. My opinion is the B&G is the gold standard if you are racing. YMMV

 

[Ward H]

What I would like, windspeed/direction, speed over water, depth and autopilot. Water temp, speed over ground and the ability to connect with a chart plotter (someday) would be bonus.

Knowing what you want is a good start. Sounds like you're starting with a clean slate.
Choosing a brand can be mind boggling and mixing brands can be done and that can be even more mind boggling. Especially when what you have chosen doesn't work together. Which brand's tech support do you call?

I chose to go with one brand and that was Raymarine, for two reasons. They have the autopilot and their SeaTalkng network cabling system, which is basically NMEA2000 protocol but with their proprietary cables, connectors etc. The EV-100 autopilot comes with a network starter kit.
Choose their MFD instrument display, i70S and it is basically plug and play with their color coded SeaTalkng cables. Choose their transducers for wind, speed and depth and you are ready to go.
When it's time for a chart plotter chose RMs Axiom display and it will plug into the network and interface nicely with the AP and the transducers.

Yes, you can mix and match brands. Garmin or B&G chart plotter, RM wind instruments, and use network cabling components from several manufacturers. When I was trying to build my system, which was my first foray into a network system, I found going with RM the simplest way to build a network that worked out of the box.

As @RitSim said, B&G is the gold standard for racing but a bit pricey.

Personally, I found the RM instruments and chart plotters easier to navigate and use than @Scott T-Bird s B&G system or my old Garmin chart plotter.

 

[sail sfbay]

Wheel autopilot from Raymarine. Other instruments from Raymarine.

 

[Kings Gambit]

I recently, in August, upgraded my Raymarine instruments/displays. New weather station at mast head, single thru-hull transducer w/depth, speed, and temp, i70 multi-display, and the Axiom 7 chartplotter. (The 7-inch display is the largest that will fit.) I kept my ST6000 Plus autohelm so it is not integrated with the other units. Basically this means the yacht cannot autohelm itself to a waypoint. (Which it never has.)

It all adds up; the equipment which was not overly expensive but with over $3,000 for the various installations. A rigger up the mast to install the new weather station and drop new cabling, the boat hauled to install the new transducer sleeve, plus two guys for a day + to fit and install the electronics/displays. I would not recommend trying that part yourself unless you already know how to do this kind of thing. Too many booby traps for DIYS on-the-job-learning IMHO.

OK. Results. It’s an impressive system to which other components (such as a new autopilot) might be added. The i70 is very nice at integrating wind data, speed (STW), and depth, plus waypoint and SOG information from the Axiom. It’s the winner! But the Axiom itself is still “under evaluation.” It’s a bit difficult to use fully; there are many screens. The e-charts that were loaded with the unit are evidently not among the best. Lack detail at high zoom. I will probably have to replace the set. My hand-held Garmin chartplotter is far better at high zoom!! On a recent cruise we and our companion boat with nearly the same Raymarine set up had to get out our paper charts for sufficient detail at anchorage sites. (But I also have iNavX on the iPad for reference.) So, that’s a disappointment. Might consider passing on the Axiom for a Garmin chartplotter, if compatible. I would not give the full system an A+ but I’m satisfied with it overall. Maybe my rating will improve with more use and familiarity.

 

[Ward H]

@Kings Gambit What eCharts were loaded on your Axiom?
I chose the Axiom 7 with Navionics charts. I haven't noticed the Navionics charts lacking in detail but then my sailing area is much different than yours.

 

[Captain Larry-DH]

If you want to integrate the autopilot With the chart plotter, buy both from the same brand.
Yes I know they will integrate using NMEA 2000, but they might not work efficiently (a Raymarine AP does not operate properly with a B&G CP; in my experience the steering was erratic when trying to follow course, because it would overreact to course corrections when the boat went off the rumbline). You won’t get any troubleshooting support from either maker’s Tech Support either.
I never use that function anyway, because I always use the AP independently of the CP. (Simply by using the buttons on the AP control head to follow the intended course. )

 

[David in Sandusky]

our approach is minimalist but has served us well for 23 years and over 7,000 nm:
- Depth guage.
- Handheld color charting GPS for waypoints, routes, location, and speed. (No tides or other currents in our cruising grounds)
- Autopilot for long motor sailing legs.
- Windex on top of the mast.
- VHF Radio for marinas, safety, and weather forecasts.
- Smartphone with Navionics to back up charting gps, for weather forecasts and weather radar, and to back up radio.

Our sails, Windex, boat speed, and heel of the hull tell me how to trim, or reef the sails. Together with sea state, and local weather stations on the smartphone, they give me an accurate estimate of wind speed. But once the sails are trimmed, and our heel is less than 15 degrees, wind speed is just a number. Our bimini is behind our boom, so I always have a clear view of our sails and Windex. Currents are mostly less than a half knot - speedos aren’t more accurate than a gps for boat speed. The only exceptions for current are the Detroit and St. Clair Rivers, and the only action there is max throttle on the engine. If that doesn’t move us ahead then we can’t make it under the bridge entering Lake Huron. But the current there is seldom greater than the 5 knots we can make on the engine and more instruments won’t make us go faster!

We have chartered boats with complete instrument systems over 20 times. But I have never felt the need for any additions to our set-up. The only exception I can think of was having radar for a very foggy trip from the Martha’s Vinyard to Newport. And we have only experienced comparable fog on Lake Erie once in over 600 days of sailing. Listening, sailing without the engine, and ringing our bell or honking our horn kept us safe that morning.

For me, this setup gives me all I need to cruise safely, and efficiently. And I don’t personally see value in more instruments. Others do, so the question is, do you?

(Thanks to Parsons for the correction to VHF radio)

 

[shemandr]

Where will OP mount whatever system chooses? Is there a binnacle? If I couldn't mount the MFD at the helm I would rather have hand helds at the helm.
I also think the wind speed, direction, are over rated especially when you realize you can calibrate them to read whatever you want. Speed through water is useful on LI Sound because gaging current is important in cruising there. Traveling on LI Sound is largely about current.
I had Radar on my 356 and used it on LI Sound. The truth is that in the think fog that you can have there you should be safely tied to a dock or moored. I think it was more terrifying to see traffic on the radar screen then not knowing the traffic was out there.. It was not comfortable, it distracts your attention from the water and I could not use the MARPS system (For tracking targets) because it took too much of my attention. I will agree if you are caught out in fog or heavy rain Radar is a good tool to manage a bad situation. You have. to practice in clear weather - a lot.

 

[Parsons]

David's advice is great, but I think he means "VHF" not "CB" in the bullet point below. He has many more miles under his keel than I do, so I will ask him to look at this again.

- CB Radio for marinas, safety, and weather forecasts.

 

[leo310]

Talk to you local dealers as they may have a package deal that fit your wallet. AS for your Cat 30 I would go with a Ray system EV-100 (wheel) AP as others don't have a same system. I've gone with Garmin but have a EV-100 AP knowing that the EV-100 updates will fall behind (need RM MFD). NEMA 2k is easy to use its plug and play took longer to plan and set the runs than setting up the insturments.

 

[Cederholm]

Where will OP mount whatever system chooses? Is there a binnacle? If I couldn't mount the MFD at the helm I would rather have hand helds at the helm.

Very helpful info all. Thank you!

Shemandr, no binnacle, displays will be mounted next to the companion way. All but the auto helm.

 

[Kings Gambit]

@Kings Gambit What eCharts were loaded on your Axiom?
I chose the Axiom 7 with Navionics charts. I haven't noticed the Navionics charts lacking in detail but then my sailing area is much different than yours.

I’ll have to recheck on whether Navionics was actually loaded when the guys made the installation. (I guess got focused on it when our companion boat hailed to inquire.) Does not look like it from your comment. Axiom can ship with an alternate version, Lighthouse North American Charts, so it might be a “gotcha” there for me! I certainly intended Navionics but do not presently have it on other devices.Thanks.
KG

 

[BarryL]

Hey,

A few points that haven't been made:
-If you go all Raymarine (plotter, autopilot, instruments, displays, etc.) then the plotter can directly control the autopilot. If the plotter and autopilot are from different manufacturers, then you can only control the pilot from the pilot control head. Yes, the plotter and pilot will communicate and you can steer to a heading, wind angle, waypoint, route, but if both are raymarine then you can directly control the plotter, including auto / stand by, course change, etc. from the plotter screen.
-If there are software updates to any components (displays, instruments, pilot, etc.) you can update them if they are from the same manufacturer. If there an update to the course computer for the Raymarine autopilot, the only way to update it is by connecting it to a Raymarine MFD (or by sending it back to Raymarine.
-I've used plotters from Raymarine, Garmin, B&G, and a few others. Today, IMO, all new plotters are more similar than they are different. They all have touch screens, the ability to mirror the screen on a tablet, can run Navionics charts, accept input from a wide range of sensors (wind, speed, depth, AIS, cameras).
-IMO it comes down to what you're familiar with, budget, and use case. If I wanted a high end system for racing I would go all B&G for the advanced h5000 computer stuff with polars, etc. If I had a smaller boat and a clean slate I would buy Raymarine to keep it simple. I think the Garmin GMI display is the nicest looking so you should at least consider Garmin as well.

 

[Kings Gambit]

You have. to practice in clear weather - a lot.

Yes. This means that you must have RADAR on much of time you are out to visually assess the targets that are appearing. On my Furuno this can mean frequently adjusting the Gain depending on the range setting, etc. The targets are not just blimps; they have shape and size, etc. For example, I believe that in dense fog I can distinguish an oil platform from an anchored container ship from the target shape and know which is which. Small anchored fishing boats may not show up under some Gain settings at “long range”, 3 n.mi. Also, must not confuse them with ATONs.

So, for fog navigation RADAR maybe necessary, but should also use chart position, depth soundings if near shore, and listening for sounds. Slow down!

 

[jssailem]

had to get out our paper charts for detail at anchorage sites.

This is why I love paper Raster charts.
They allow you to see data (when the data is updated regularly) that is often missed under the current brand of electronic charts. For me, charts are about understanding the nuances of unknown water close to shore. When I am sailing in 300ft depth - open water, the contour details of the sea floor are of little or no importance. When I am seeking shelter from an incoming storm or a quiet night at anchor getting the details of the nearby land mass and the sea floor depths / composition are of critical importance.

I'm refurbishing a 1980 Catalina 30 for coastal cruising in and around Long Island sound.

Your stated intended use of your boat leads me to suggest a little more than minimal day sail electronics are needed. Beyond that all is "Wants".

Definitely a chart plotter, an AP (assuming solo sailing) and a depth sensor are on the needs list. On your size boat the Raymarine package: Axiom 9" chart plotter, EV100 Wheel AP, and transducer will give you a compact system. Moderate power consumption and easy on the refit budget. With these electronics, a compass and a chart you can navigate the waters of Connecticut safely.

Next in the nice to have category are Radar (for when the fog rolls in) and AIS (should you venture into commercial waters). It is only money and convenience.

Knowing the exact wind direction and speed is nice info but pinches the cruising kitty. Experience on the water, sailing your boat, will soon build the skills to read the water and the wind without the need for dedicated electronics. Monies that might be better expended on new sails.

Watching the wind on the water from calm to breaking waves guides sailors to adjust their sails as the wind builds. The signs are all around us when coastal sailing.

A couple of ideas regarding the wind on the water.

How To See Wind on the Water When Sailing

The most important skill on a racing sailboat is observing the wind. Read how a pro looks for wind on the water

www.sailingworld.com

Beaufort Scale

www.weather.gov

 

[Kings Gambit]

I like the Raster charts too, for the reasons you mentioned, John. From Cabo San Lucas to Alaska, the coastline of western North American presents chiefly a rocky shore, with intermittent exposed beaches and a few large estuaries. The offshore islands are rocky as well as are many potential shelters north of Pt. Conception, and especially north of Bodega Bay. So going in someplace to anchor, particularly if remote, typically means nearing a rocky shore to gain shallow depths where there could be surge. In some examples you may be only a couple of boat lengths out. So DETAIL is very important; as much as can be had!! Very different than anchoring inshore of sandy barrier islands in quiet and roomy estuarine settings, as in southwestern FL.

 

[jssailem]

The difference is significant if your examine the charts.
ENC.
Shows depth and contours of the area (in this case Watmough Bay on the SouthEast end of Lopez Island).
Is this a good anchroage when the Coast Guard weather reports a SouthWesterly storm forecast to blow in at 02:00?

With out local knowledge the chart is not very descriptive.

Here is the Raster chart of the same bay.

The raster chart suggest you could be in trouble. The hills to the SW of the anchorage would funnel winds over the island down the valley between the 2 hill contours shown on the raster map and directly into the anchorage.

This information is why I prefer Raster charts when sailing into areas of new discovery.

 

[Kings Gambit]

Nicely done!