What is IMPORTANT when looking for a used boat/yacht?

jssailem · Mar 28, 2022

Your attempt is admirable. I would hope it is successful. I have doubts based on the sales people I have experienced, as brokers. Who knows, you may just find that special broker who sees it as an opportunity.

There is a Nova Scotian sailor, John Harries, who has tried to define the perfect way to buy a boat and find the concept of cruising affordable.
He has some free content, on his site like this link... US$30,000 Starter Cruiser—How It’s Working Out .
You are asked to become a member to read all of the content. He has posted a number of free stuff if you share your email address with him. John and his wife have the sailing credentials to be able to share real life cruising insights.

It might be of interest in your quest to see how the couple accomplished their goal.

Reading the proposed letter, some of the items are so open ended that you may not get a response till you more clearly define the "want".
As example...
#1 what do you identify as "significant" or "required repairs".
#2 A windvane is generally only found on a boat that has been actively cruised on ocean passages. A boat just having completed an ocean passage is likely to need extensive repair. You are better off finding the boat which fits your needs and then looking for a windvane either new or used in repairable condition. Again the term "reliable" is an open requirement. You may decide that the only reliable windvane is a Monitor, and the broker says "if it is on the boat it must be reliable". Note you can set a boat up to sail single handed with out a windvane.

For instance if sailing out of Victoria south to Mexico, you can hug the coast and stop (over night) along the way pretty much every day. A boat that tracks well can sail with an electric AP all day and not deplete a well designed battery system.

sail sfbay · Mar 28, 2022

That is a good list. Suggest contacting sailboat brokers to find out what they have that meet your criteria. Also, go on yacht world, boat trader, etc..to look for sailboats that meet your criteria. Please keep the forum updated on what you found.

Tally Ho · Mar 28, 2022

Good list, but lots of undefined terms that will be subject to interpretation…
”reasonably spacious cockpit”
”reasonably-sized water tanks”
”reasonably-sized fuel tanks”
”reasonably-separate cabin”

I think you are looking for a unicorn, with an electric engine, wind vane, no “rot”, insulated hull, etc.

Maybe get on Yacht World, Sailboat Listings, and other sites and see what you can find in your area…that meets your criteria (or as close as you can find), then reach out to brokers with a list of boats You think meet your criteria, and say “something like these…”

Good luck, unicorn hunting is hard and time consuming..

Greg

jssailem · Mar 28, 2022

Tally Ho said:
or as close as you can find

Choosing a used boat is a process of compromise.

Only way you get all that you want is to commission a designer to build you a boat to your specifications.

Can be done, need big enough pockets filled with cash.

dlochner · Mar 28, 2022

A good start! A few suggestions.

First, as @jssailem said, John Harris's site, Attainable Adventure Cruising is excellent. It is a pay site, however at a very modest~$20 a year. Well worth the money.

Next, banish the phrase "bluewater sailboat" from your vocabulary and never mention it to a broker or someone who is knowledgeable about offshore sailing. It is a meaningless term.

Instead of using the phrase that shan't be mentioned, describe it differently. something like "a boat capable of passages of 3-5 days duration and offshore coastal cruising. My plans are to take extended passages along the coast eventually reaching Mexico and perhaps venturing into the Caribbean." Then something along the lines of "I would consider classic cruising boats such as those built by Pacific Seacraft, Crealock, Baba, Hans Christian, Cheoy Lee, Southern Cross or other similar boats."

Now, start doing more specific research on the type of boats you like. Use Yachtworld.com, search broker ads in Cruising World, generally look for the places these boats will be sold. It is likely there are some brokers who specialize in the kinds of boat you are looking for. These are the brokers to contact. Don't bother with the high volume production boat brokers, they are interested in a different market. You are in a rather unique market.

Bear in mind the boats you are interested will be heavy on the teak and associated maintenance and will likely have been sailed hard and put away not too wet. It may be fruitful to expand your search a bit beyond the classic heavy slow cruising boats of yore.

jssailem · Mar 28, 2022

A website that may help you understand the boat designs mentioned by @dlochner is

Bluewaterboats.org - Sailboat reviews for offshore sailing

bluewaterboats.org

As Dave says, you should disconnect your thoughts from identifying a boat as "Bluewater". It does not help you with a broker.
The web site has a variety of boats that have proven good performance as a cruising boat.

DArcy · Mar 28, 2022

dlochner said:
Next, banish the phrase "bluewater sailboat" from your vocabulary and never mention it to a broker or someone who is knowledgeable about offshore sailing. It is a meaningless term.

Ha, I was thinking the same thing. You may want to phrase it as "looking for comfort and stability over speed".

Here is a list of offshore cruising boats I pulled down years ago and added a few along the way. I haven't touched this list since 2009 so it is likely outdated as are some of the boats, but considering your budget you are going to be looking at boats in this vintage anyway. It's a full 8 pages, lots to look through but if you have a few hours (or days) to kill you might want to pop some of these boats into SailboatData.com - the worlds largest sailboat database and Yachts for Sale - YachtWorld to see if there are any you like the look of and could be in your price range.

PaulK · Mar 28, 2022

You will likely get better results by searching on Yachtworld and setting the filters based on your "reasonable" parameters. Asking posters for suggestions of boats that may fit your parameters (there may be thousands) but which are not available for sale will serve no purpose. Unless they're available for sale, they may as well not exist as far as you're concerned.

Will Gilmore · Mar 28, 2022

You are getting great advice here.

Your list is a great start. I would especially agree that some of your items are unlikely, such as the electric motor and the insulated hull. These are things you should consider as DIY projects after the fact. Also, don't put emphasis on your solar or windvane. These can be found individually and installed. To wait for a boat that has what you're looking for already to go, will limit your search and extend the time it takes to find what will make you happy.

You might consider describing your ideal boat to a dealer as somewhere around 35 feet for overnight sails with friends. Most any boat that will comfortably accommodate its master and a couple of friends will have two cabins and a comfortable cockpit and can make a passage. That latter part is more a matter of preparation and experience than about the boat.

For sailing in Southern waters, you don't want to draw too much either. A six foot draft is pushing it. Your primary concern should, as your list indicates you already know, be soundness and solid reliable sails and rigging. Don't bother giving your broker a range. Just give the maximum of 40K and your agent will consider 10K additional a given. You will want to reserve about that much to spend for your outfitting with radio, depth sounder, ais, wind vane/auto pilot, etc.

I also think a gimballed stove is nice, but for a solo sailor who won't be making long passages, maybe not that big a priority. Keep a thermos of coffee on hand and energy bars for the rough and rolly days. Cook at anchor.

Good luck. I'm excited for you. Keep us posted.

-Will

David in Sandusky · Mar 29, 2022

jssailem said, “sailing out of Victoria south to Mexico, you can hug the coast and stop (over night) along the way pretty much every day.” So I encourage you to think of a coastal cruiser instead of an offshore design. In my mind that means you don’t need a boat that is designed to survive serious storms because you are far from a port of refuge. In our cruising, we can sit out forecasts of stormy weather in a safe marina for a day or two. We look for a “weather window” if we want to sail a long leg of a few days and nights along a coast like Baja California. In this scenario, “reasonable” tankage means enough capacity for 5 days away from refilling, or pump out, not the ability to motor for a week to get through the doldrums around the equator.

The basic design of our 70’s cruiser would be OK offshore. But we would need to strengthen systems, and add tankage, and equipment (a drogue or wind vane for instance) if we wanted to cruise for weeks across an ocean. Think seriously about sacrificing cruising speed with a full keel. Cruising at 4 versus 5 knots turns a coastal leg of 40 nm from under 8 hours to 10 hours. Or a leg of 100 nm from a long day of 20 hours to an overnight of 25 hours.

Good luck in any case! I am sure that you can find the boat you need to support your dreams.

Parsons · Mar 29, 2022

Good advice above, but if I may add some things. You are looking for something that may not be available in the Canadian prairie, but is (relatively) common on the coast - do a search on Yachtworld and prove this to yourself. I don't even know if you could actually sail a 35-foot boat out of Saskatchewan, but am open to be corrected. It is much faster and cheaper to transport yourself and your goods overland, and buy that boat near where it will be cruised. Also, I'd save your time on printing posters and distributing - no one can look for your boat but you. It's like printing posters asking people to sell you the perfect set of jeans that fit your bottom well and have "reasonably sized pockets"; no one would try.

A small boat like a WWP is perfect for learning to sail, but does not give you much instruction on systems (plumbing, electrical, electronics, steering gear, etc.). Those last are largely intellectual exercises that can be learned from books and videos, unlike actual sailing and navigation which has a large feel/physical component. In other words, you can seriously prepare for cruising by sailing a WWP and studying system.

Final advice I always give on boat selection comes from the movie Serenity, in the immortal words of Capt. Malcolm Reynolds ... "You know what the first rule of flying is? ... Love. You can learn all the math in the 'Verse, but you take a boat in the air that you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps her in the air when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurtin' 'fore she keens. Makes her a home." I smile every time I walk out to the dock and see my boat.

Kings Gambit · Mar 29, 2022

Have some good comments above. A few more. Tankage is basically a function of the size, and to a certain degree the model year, of the vessel. The more comfortable the living space, the less the storage and tankage. Later model yachts have less storage and tankage than earlier ones to give more comfort for a given size. There’s only so much room available. But it’s a bit incongruous to be concerned about fuel tank capacity and wish for electric auxiliary at the same time. Electric dive usually replaces the diesel; it uses that space. Must put the batteries somewhere. Basically an electric auxiliary is not practical for what you want to do (due to charging limitations). That is something for harbor or lake yachts.

Yes. Forget the “Bluewater” moniker. “Bluewater” exists only for yacht sales brochures and advertisements. The ultimate “get-away dream.” In reality, it’s a concept far more than it is a place. Take dlochner’s advice and describe the capabilities of the yacht you seek. The proper “terms”would be principally coastal or ocean cruiser. But the crafts have interchangeable capabilities. That is, a yacht designed for coastal operation might still make ocean passages, etc., such as from Los Angels to Hawaii.

sail sfbay · Mar 29, 2022

Prairie Virgin Sailor.........the main job of a boat broker is to match up buyers with sellers. You might find this article helpful: What Do Yacht Brokers Do? 8 Things To Expect (Selling & buying) (godownsize.com). My experience with brokers is they are very helpful in showing boats that interest me in their listings, navigating the contractual paperwork, handling escrow, scheduling sea trial and surveys (hull, engine, rigging, etc.), identifying surveyors and assisting getting insurance and a boat loan. If you want a Buyer's broker, suggest contracting with one for that purpose and make sure the contract clearing specifies what you want the broker to do for you.

Kings Gambit · Mar 29, 2022

Yacht sales brokers are very keen on recognizing serious buyers. When you present yourself as one, if you have not, they will help you find a boat. And yes, the broker fee is usually in the price of the boat. Many folks, however, seek something not available, perhaps not even built—the unicorn mentioned above. Your evident view of the reality of yacht purchasing may be working against you. Learn to “play the game.”

dlochner · Mar 29, 2022

Prairie Virgin Sailor said:
Thanks so much for your input. Great help. To this point, I have had very little success or help with brokers or from brokers re finding a boat. I admit, my search has just begun, and I have only contacted a few brokers. Honestly ... I can't quite figure out what they do???? I know I must be missing something, but to this point it feels as though I need to do 100% of the work in finding what it is I want and need and then once I do, I find out who the broker is (if applicable), and finalized the deal through the broker so as he/she gets their cut. In short, they increase the purchase price of the boat and yet bring nothing to the table of value. I know I must be wrong ???? but that is truly what I am finding thus far. As is with all things, 80% are useless and 20% are probably good. However, as is with all things, the 20% are good at what they do and offer their VALUED services to the higher end client. I guess ... it just is what it is. Again, thanks for the input. Your general comments are indeed helpful. I am confident I will eventually find what I need. Thanks

This is a question that gets asked a lot, "What use is the broker?"

The broker works for the seller, the seller pays the commission so their obligation is to the seller. As such they are there to represent the seller in the transaction and help to make sure the transaction goes smoothly. They are supposed to market the boat, help set a reasonable selling price, and help negotiate the deal.

For the buyer, the broker will help to organize the paperwork, provide accurate assessment of the boat (though not a survey), facilitate the transaction by organizing paperwork, dealing with mortgage lenders, holding deposits in escrow, and generally assist the buyer in getting the boat in the water. Brokers can be especially helpful to the buyer if the transaction is across borders. They will know how to import or export a boat from the US to Canada or vice-versa. The broker can also "talk sense" to the seller, if the boat is in need of repair or if the asking price is too high, etc.

There are advantages to both sides as it can make the transaction go quicker and smoother, however, there are more advantages to the seller than the buyer.

On boats above $20K, there may be little price advantage on a private sale or a brokered sale. Boats under $20K there is probably some advantage for a private sale. Typical commission rates are 10% or a minimum of $2K whichever is larger.

Unless you are looking a boat over $100K brokers will not do a lot work finding a boat for a buyer, the money just isn't there. Even at a $100K a split commission will not yield much money, only 5% of the selling price.

Most brokerages maintain an online list of boats they have listed. Identify the boats you are interested in, find them in Yachtworld.com or online and contact the broker about that boat. A specific inquiry about a boat will likely lead to a better response from the broker, remember his job is to find a buyer.

Selling a boat privately is time consuming, which is why brokers have jobs. The biggest PITA are the number of tire kickers and dreamers who have no intention of buying a boat anytime in the near future. Brokers tire of dealing with these folks. Unfortunately, you are in the price range where there are a lot of tire kickers.

Patience. And lots of homework.

Kings Gambit · Mar 29, 2022

I spent at least two years searching YachtWorld.com and other publications, plus walking the docks, searching for the boat I have now. When I finally found it the listing broker helped me acquire it. Effectively doubling as a buyer’s broker. Of course, the services were not free. I traded my Pearson 30 on the deal for a credit of $10,000 whereupon that broker resold it at $19,000 a few weeks later. It’s the business, etc. I didn’t know his particular commission on the whole transaction (i.e., sell/buy/sell); probably “respectable.” But I got the yacht I wanted and I still have it now 18 yr later.

Kings Gambit · Mar 29, 2022

Like asking the fox, even a trained one, guarding the hen house not to eat any chickens. Brokers will not make any express or implied “guarantees” about the condition of the boat. They can give you an “honest opinion”, but normally won’t even go very far with that. I’m afraid it’s caveat emptor, if you know what I mean.

What is IMPORTANT when looking for a used boat/yacht?

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SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John

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SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John

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SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John

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