Pre-purchase survey checklist

GSail

.
Jul 18, 2020
11
Beneteau 32 San Diego
Hi.
Here is my short story. I was buying a boat (I live in San Diego, CA). The surveyor I hired was completely not professional. I decided to create a website with valuable information for anybody buying a boat and a list of SD surveyors (later I'll add more info to help choose the most professional surveyor).



I'm trying to create a Pre-purchase survey checklist (and need your help) to help owners:


1) Do before "Pre-purchase" check.
2) Track what was checked and what missed during the survey.

My idea is to divide it into 3 sections: In-water, Out of Water, Sea trials.

Please help me to edit. Your knowledge and experience are vital!


OUT OF THE WATER (HOUL-OUT) BOAT CHECK
Hull, Deck & Structure

Keel
Hull below water line
Moisture readings and osmosis check / hull soundings on steel vessel

Steering, Stern Gear and Skin Fittings
Rudder and steering
Stern gear
Cathodic protection
Skin fittings and other through hulls






IN THE WATER CHECK
Vessel documents (registration, service records, insurance)
Hull, Deck & Structure
Topsides above waterline including rubbing strake etc.
Deck moulding
Coachroof
Cockpit
Hull/deck join
Bulkheads and structural stiffening including internal mouldings

On Deck
Main companion way and accesses to accommodation
Ports & windows etc.
Pulpit, pushpit, lifelines, stanchions and jackstays
Rigging attachment points
Ground tackle and mooring arrangements
Other deck gear and fittings
Davits & boarding ladders

Rig
Spars
Standing rigging
Running rigging
Sails & covers etc.

Safety
Navigation lights
Bilge pumping arrangements
Fire fighting equipment
Lifesaving and emergency equipment

Engine
Engine & installation
Fuel System

Accommodation and Onboard Systems
Accommodation general
Gas installation
Fresh water tanks and delivery
Heads
Electrical installation
Electronic and navigation equipment
Heating and refrigeration



SEA TRIALS
Engine run
Sails
 

GSail

.
Jul 18, 2020
11
Beneteau 32 San Diego
This is a cool detailed guide "How to do a marine pre-purchase survey". I want to provide a check-list for owners who hire surveyor but still need to control what was checked.
 

Phil Herring

Alien
Mar 25, 1997
4,918
- - Bainbridge Island
FWIW, I don't think it's a bad idea to have a quick cheat sheet on things to check when looking at a boat. Not a detailed survey guide but something slightly meatier than a checklist. I can see how that could be of use for new boat owners when looking at a boat pre-survey, or for someone buying an older 20-footer who might not hire a survey.
 
Jun 25, 2004
1,108
Corsair F24 Mk1 003 San Francisco Bay, CA
There are whole books written by experts who know how to do surveys. I’d suggest you read A book like Don Casey’s Inspecting the Aging Sailboat, to learnhow to evaluate what you,re seeing, and then create a checklist.

Here’s the table of contents From the book.
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Oct 24, 2010
2,405
Hunter 30 Everett, WA
Here in the Northwest, wet cores is a huge deal. You also need dry weather to test for a wet core (and a moisture meter).

I'd also encourage people to look for items that should have been fixed, but done poorly (like a rusty hose clamp, wire nuts, automotive electrical connectors) these are symptomatic of overall substandard care. On these boats, be really thorough in your examination.

Ken
 
Jan 11, 2014
11,323
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
Surveyors who have NAMS or SAMS certifications have a standard protocol they use to survey a boat. Hiring an accredited surveyor provides some assurance that the surveyor has at least passed a test to get the certification, however, as in any profession, competency varies among the surveyors. There is no government oversight on surveyors so it can be a wild guess as to who is most competent.

The standard marine pre-purchase survey will identify basic issues about the boat's condition and suitability for the intended use. Some boats and models have particular issues which may not be easily seen by a surveyor or included in the standard protocol. For example, early 1980 Sabre sailboats with a keel stepped mast have issues with the mast step, fondly known as the "dreaded mast step disease" it was caused by a poorly designed drainage channel in the mast step. Since there are literally thousands different sailboat models, it is unrealistic for any surveyor to have comprehensive knowledge of the each model's idiosyncrasies. Like wise hiring a surveyor who has extensive experience surveying power boats to survey a sailboat might yield a less than desirable result.

There are directories of surveyors available on the internet already. Both NAMS and SAMS provide directories.


Ultimately on your website you will have to deal your own credibility. How will know if you are a credible resource? Are you a certified surveyor? Do you have extensive sailing experience? And then there is the whole issue of liability. How will you determine which surveyors to list on your website? If you allow any one to list their business, then your list adds little value to existing lists. If you endorse some surveyors and not others, then you might expect challenges from the surveyors or if someone is unhappy with a surveyor found on your website, you might expect to hear from their attorneys.

Buy Don Casey's book (Amazon Link) and read it. Find owners and owner groups for the boats you are interested in. Read and learn, an informed buyer is a better buyer.
 
  • Like
Likes: GSail
Jan 22, 2008
309
Hunter 34 Herrington South, MD
Just read all the posts to see what goes wrong with your particular boat. H34s have bilge issues and compression posts. I'm sure other boats have their own specific areas that need specific attention.
 

CarlN

.
Jan 4, 2009
603
Ketch 55 Bristol, RI
Many new to boat buying have unreasonable expectations for a survey. It's not the same as a warranty on a new boat. New boats cost a lot partly because of the warranty. If you want someone else to take responsibility for any problem with the boat - buy new.

The second misconception is that a half day survey finds everything. Cruising sailboats are incredibly complicated machines. If you were willing to pay the surveyor for a three day survey it would be very thorough. But not many people are willing to pay that much. And don't think that you'll be able to negotiate the price lower for each thing the survey finds. Most sellers will drop price a bit to make the deal go through but for the most part they will say the survey problems were already reflected in the negotiated price. Old boats are never perfect.

Of course, you can walk away and get your deposit back - but are you really going to do that because the bow pulpit is loose?

A good surveyor (and they are hard to find) - will primarily focus on the things that could justify walking away - water in the core, delamination, structural issues, serious, engine problems. They also find a few less serious things to get the price down some - at least enough to cover the survey fee. It's expected. When I hire a surveyor, I tell him to focus on things that would cost more than $500 to fix. I can fix some missing hose clamps.

Finally, if you do buy the boat your insurance company will insist on proof that you fixed just about everything in the written survey report before they'll cover you. This usually means giving them a boatyard bill. Often a lot of these items can wait a year or you can fix yourself. A good surveyor knows this and will tell you more than he'll put in the written report that you have to give to the insurance company.

I have never bought a boat where I didn't discover several serious things that the surveyor missed. And some other things that were fine but broke within a few months. And there are always many more things that weren't missed but I decided needed to be replaced in the first year of ownership (new foam for the mattresses, new chartplotter, etc.). On a 10+ year old 40ft+ boat, I would budget $50,000 for these and hope I didn't need it all.
 

GSail

.
Jul 18, 2020
11
Beneteau 32 San Diego
Thank you, dlochner.
Your post is so informative for me!
I'm planning to allow everybody to add his company to the list.
The mission of the website - to provide more structured information that somebody who looking for a surveyor can find on other websites.
 

GSail

.
Jul 18, 2020
11
Beneteau 32 San Diego
Many new to boat buying have unreasonable expectations for a survey. It's not the same as a warranty on a new boat. New boats cost a lot partly because of the warranty. If you want someone else to take responsibility for any problem with the boat - buy new.

The second misconception is that a half day survey finds everything. Cruising sailboats are incredibly complicated machines. If you were willing to pay the surveyor for a three day survey it would be very thorough. But not many people are willing to pay that much. And don't think that you'll be able to negotiate the price lower for each thing the survey finds. Most sellers will drop price a bit to make the deal go through but for the most part they will say the survey problems were already reflected in the negotiated price. Old boats are never perfect.

Of course, you can walk away and get your deposit back - but are you really going to do that because the bow pulpit is loose?

A good surveyor (and they are hard to find) - will primarily focus on the things that could justify walking away - water in the core, delamination, structural issues, serious, engine problems. They also find a few less serious things to get the price down some - at least enough to cover the survey fee. It's expected. When I hire a surveyor, I tell him to focus on things that would cost more than $500 to fix. I can fix some missing hose clamps.

Finally, if you do buy the boat your insurance company will insist on proof that you fixed just about everything in the written survey report before they'll cover you. This usually means giving them a boatyard bill. Often a lot of these items can wait a year or you can fix yourself. A good surveyor knows this and will tell you more than he'll put in the written report that you have to give to the insurance company.

I have never bought a boat where I didn't discover several serious things that the surveyor missed. And some other things that were fine but broke within a few months. And there are always many more things that weren't missed but I decided needed to be replaced in the first year of ownership (new foam for the mattresses, new chartplotter, etc.). On a 10+ year old 40ft+ boat, I would budget $50,000 for these and hope I didn't need it all.

You're 100% right!
And I like an idea to look for 500+$ issues only.
In my case surveyor "forgot" to check issues like delamination, standing rigging, ect))
If you don't mind, I want to use your post for an article on the website.
 
Jan 11, 2014
11,323
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
You're 100% right!
And I like an idea to look for 500+$ issues only.
In my case surveyor "forgot" to check issues like delamination, standing rigging, ect))
If you don't mind, I want to use your post for an article on the website.
Most surveyors will only do a cursory check of running and standing rigging, engine, and sails. For electronics and other electric devices they simply power up the device to see if it powers up. If you press a surveyor to assess the engine, sails or rigging they will likely encourage you to hire someone with expertise in that area.

Missing delimitation is kind of a big deal. All surveyors should sound the hull when it is out of the water. If the surveyor missed that and you went ahead with the purchase based on the survey, then the surveyor should be on the hook for at least part of the cost, certainly he should refund his fee. However, there may be other mitigating circumstances in your situation that leaves you on the hook for the whole cost. I know of one case in which a woman bought a boat and after the purchase the rudder post was found to be bent. The surveyor should have noticed that. According to the purchaser, the surveyor paid for the repair.
 

Ctskip

.
Sep 21, 2005
732
other 12 wet water
I use the internet to find about a certain vessels "quirks" about a particular vessel. Be it tankage below the mast under the floor boards or the rub rail screws spread to far apart. Owners of the vessels are quick to point out the negative aspects of their vessel. Check out the vessel on the internet to find it's quirks is my suggestion
 

GSail

.
Jul 18, 2020
11
Beneteau 32 San Diego
Most surveyors will only do a cursory check of running and standing rigging, engine, and sails. For electronics and other electric devices they simply power up the device to see if it powers up. If you press a surveyor to assess the engine, sails or rigging they will likely encourage you to hire someone with expertise in that area.

Missing delimitation is kind of a big deal. All surveyors should sound the hull when it is out of the water. If the surveyor missed that and you went ahead with the purchase based on the survey, then the surveyor should be on the hook for at least part of the cost, certainly he should refund his fee. However, there may be other mitigating circumstances in your situation that leaves you on the hook for the whole cost. I know of one case in which a woman bought a boat and after the purchase the rudder post was found to be bent. The surveyor should have noticed that. According to the purchaser, the surveyor paid for the repair.
He did check boat hull, but not the deck
 
Jul 27, 2011
4,989
Bavaria 38E Alamitos Bay
You're 100% right!
In my case surveyor "forgot" to check issues like delamination, standing rigging, ect))
If you don't mind, I want to use your post for an article on the website.
Sir, your inexperience is shinning through brightly. You appear to know little of what you speak regarding professional surveys. For example, if you want a survey of the standing rigging, then you have to hire a rigger. If you wish a survey of the engine, you have to hire a diesel mechanic. A one or two-hr general marine survey is principally one of the hull, but might include a few ancillary inspections such as hoses and hose clamps to thru-hulls/valves opening below water line, etc., in addition to others mentioned above. If you wish to make a personal check-list for boat buying and share it, then fine. But get some education for yourself regarding surveys in the process.
 
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GSail

.
Jul 18, 2020
11
Beneteau 32 San Diego
Sir, your inexperience is shinning through brightly. You appear to know little of what you speak regarding professional surveys. For example, if you want a survey of the standing rigging, then you have to hire a rigger. If you wish a survey of the engine, you have to hire a diesel mechanic. A one or two-hr general marine survey is principally one of the hull, but might include a few ancillary inspections such as hoses and hose clamps to thru-hulls/valves opening below water line, etc., in addition to others mentioned above. If you wish to make a personal check list for boat buying and share it, then fine. But get some education for yourself in the process.
Yes, I know that I can hire a professional for a detailed survey, but I expect that marine surveyor will check if there is corrosion on swages and if there any swage has broken strands. And I don't ask to bring a Rigging Tension Gauge. Am I not right?

For the engine, I was hiring a professional mechanic for 2+ h inspection
 
Jul 27, 2011
4,989
Bavaria 38E Alamitos Bay
Yes, I know that I can hire a professional for a detailed survey, but I expect that marine surveyor will check if there is corrosion on swages and if there any swage has broken strands. And I don't ask to bring a Rigging Tension Gauge. Am I not right?

For the engine, I was hiring a professional mechanic for 2+ h inspection
The standing rigging is not part of a hull survey; what else can I say?