Headsail Nomenclature?

[Kings Gambit]

So. Correct me here if I'm wrong. A "Jib" is a headsail with no overlap; i.e., fits inside the foretriangle. You can have a working jib @ near 100% or a storm jib @ something less than that. In the days before headsail furling became widespread, one might call those No. 3 and No. 4, respectively. A "Genoa" is a headsail with some overlap. Say, 155%, 135%, or 120%. The geneoa at 155% would be No. 1; the lesser genny, usually near 120%, would be No. 2. I've noticed on this forum, and elsewhere, inconsistent use of the terms jib & genoa in reference to the headsail. It's not always clear which is being referred to. But, would anybody put a No. 3 on a furler for reefing? So, wouldn't the headsails on furlers nearly always be genoas?

 

[jon hansen]

a genoa is a type of jib. they are all jibs. a genoa is the nick-name for an overlapping jib as first seen in the 1922 olympics in genoa italy. the racer with the overlapping jib won. then people went back to their sailmakers and said ' i want a genoa style jib'. the 1,2,3,..... numbers are for the different sise jibs in your arsenal.
genny is slang for the nickname genoa. formal talk of different jibs will about the % of the foretriangle. my 'club footed jib' has a boom and is about 80% and used to beat to weather. the smaller the jib, the cleaner the air for the main. what i lose in sq ft in the jib i gain in the power of the main. and of course the relative wind is higher in a beat.

 

[Kings Gambit]

a genoa is a type of jib. they are all jibs. a genoa is the nick-name for an overlapping jib as first seen in the 1922 olympics. the racer with the overlapping jib won. then people went back to their sailmakers and said ' i want a genoa style jib'. the 1,2,3,..... numbers are for the different sise jibs in your arsenal.

OK, then why do we need the word headsail? I've noticed on the websites of some sail lofts selling used sails, they distinguish between jibs and genoas under the term headsail.

 

[jssailem]

Pretty much consistent with what I have heard when identifying head sails on a Marconi or Bermuda rigged sloop..
Jib - Has been used to describe a ForeSail of all sizes.
Working Jib - is a foresail of 100% or less the Fore Triangle
Genoa - is a foresail greater than the 100% size. The can be as big as 180%. Typically 155% and less. I have heard the 155% sail called the #1. Usually on racing boats that may have several sized Genoa’s ( 155 - 135 - 110 etc.).

Regarding word usage, I guess if you have been to a formal class you have been indoctrinated with the “Proper” terms. If you learned sailing under the mentorship of an “Old Salt” you might know the terms used some of which have colorful addendums that might not be permitted on this user-friendly site.

 

[jssailem]

KG. To your second question my folklore listening history says all sails in front of the Mast were termed “Head Sails”. Triangular sails were referred to as “Jibs”.

 

[jon hansen]

i'm thinking that allot of sailors did poorly in english class, like me. to busy looking out the window observing the weather. oh i know my clouds

 

[Davidasailor26]

I agree with all of the above, but I've also heard (and sometimes use) jib for any headsails. In particular I wouldn't think of saying Genoa sheets or Genoa winches - they're job sheets and jib winches even if they're controlling a 150.

 

[jssailem]

oh i know my clouds

A whole lot more fun then knowing some arcane british poet that the teacher read about in college and used to try and impress the faculty with his/her knowledge of unknown british poets, while boring the students in the class to death.

Had a High School English teacher that tried it with Henry Ibsen plays. They were a challenge to read so she took us on a field trip to a Community College production. Did not help. What did is she drove a Porsche 911.

 

[Jackdaw]

Jon pretty much nailed it. With the new designs all sporting non-overlapping rigs, the difference becomes more subtle. Most use approx 105% non-overlapping headsails, and these are indeed genoas. The term 'jib' now commonly means a <=100% headsail. Some will use the term jib for any sail that can sheeted inside the shroud base.

 

[shemandr]

I spent a lot of time looking out the windows in those classes. Last week I was looking at my HS Class yearbook, which is called the "Mast." For the first time ever I read the origin of the name. The Flagpole in front of the original HS was the mast from the A/C boat Shamrock (IV?). All those years staring out the window and I didn't even know what I was looking at. 'Course I was looking at the replacement since the Shamrock Mast was downed in a storm before I was a student there. Nevertheless it was way more interesting than the subject matter in the classroom.

 

[Kings Gambit]

So, what sails other than jibs would be headsails, I wonder? We have flying jib, working jib, staysail jib, storm jib, inner jib, outer jib, etc., and genoa. Is a spinnaker therefore a headsail that is not a jib?

 

[DrJudyB]

Lots of terms exist to describe the way sailing vessels were equipped over the millennia. Old terms get reused, and sometimes the terms we use aren't specific.

Sailmakers refer to sails by the length perpendicular (aka the LP), not the area. If the distance from the luff to the clew = J, it's a 100%. So the percent = the measured LP as a percent of J. That's about as specific as you can get.

From https://sailingfortuitous.com

100% headsails do not necessarily fit inside the foretriangle. If the clew is higher than the side deck, it will overlap the mast at the clew.
Below: from https://www.uksailmakers.com/encyclopedia/4-9-jib-top/

On a modern marconi rig, the foresails are sails that are hoisted in front of the mast on a forestay . I think that headsails are sails hoisted on a headstay on a masthead rig. But everybody uses the two terms interchangably.

In contemporary parlance, a working jib usually has an LP between 100-115%. The clew overlaps the mast a little and overlaps the spreaders too.

For fractional rigs with swept spreaders, the "non-overlapping" headsail will, in fact, overlap the mast, and will probably be around 105% LP or so. (as JackDaw said). But because the spreaders are swept aft, it can be sheeted in very tightly without hitting the spreaders. It overlaps the mast, but not the spreaders.

I usually call a sail with an LP greather than 115% a genoa.

The number 1 sail is simply the biggest foresail in the boats inventory. For some boats, it's a 150% LP but it could be larger. The luff is usually as long as possible so we call it a "full hoist". (Usually it's about 95% of the hoist, due to practical considerations. )

The number 2 is the next LP down. That might be a 125-135% LP. The luff is on a 135% #2 is usually a "full hoist." (ie 95% of the available hoist)

The number 3 is the next one down in size. Usually a 100 - 115% LP, and sometimes doesn't take up the full available space for the luff. Often the luff length will be only about 80% of the full hoist on a masthead rig, but the luff on a fractional rig will be 90-95% of the full hoist.

The #4 is often an 70-80% LP, with a hoist about 80% of full hoist. That's a heavy air jib, but not a storm jib.

For many cruisers with roller furling, a 135% LP with a full hoist is their #1 Foresail. The 150% flogs a lot when tacking so it gets worn quickly. It's a lot of work to tack. The 135% furling genoa for a cruiser is a practical sail, because it's easy to tack, and it works well if you furl it to a size that balances with a double reefed mainsail.

If you're a PHRF racer, you want to have lots of different foresails, because there's no effect on your rating if you have a #2, 3, and 4 in addition to your #1 genoa (which is usually a full hoist 155%) .

 

[DrJudyB]

Is a spinnaker therefore a headsail that is not a jib?

Technically speaking: Yes, a spinnaker is a headsail. It is not a jib. But if you talk that way, you'll confuse people.

Technically speaking:
The mid girth of a jib cannot exceed 50% of the foot dimension, for PHRF ratings
A spinnaker must have a mid girth greater than 75% of the foot. for PHRF ratings
For cruising spinnakers, we often make the mid girth smaller, which produces a sail that's easier to trim properly, but less powerful.
There are a few finer points to consider, but these are the most important distinctions.

What this means in practice is that jibs and genoas have hollow or straight leeches. Spinnakers have a positve curve on the leech or luff or both.

In terms of how the sail flys:
Spinnakers are generally not shaped to be good at close upwind angles.
Jibs and genoas with low clews are optimized for sailing tight angles upwind. as close as 25 degrees apparent.
Jibs and genoas with higher clews are optimized for reaching angles as deep as

 

[Benny17441]

Check out Sleeve Type Storm Jib.

 

[dlochner]

Just a quick reality check, this is the middle of the sailing season, shouldn't we be out sailing and saving arcane discussions for long winter nights?

This is, of course, a taxonomic question. What is the taxonomy of sails, in particular those sails that are attached to the forestay and are not free flying sails.

Let me propose the following:

Foresails: All sails flown in front of the mast, jibs, spinnakers, Code 0, yankees, screechers and reachers, etc.

Headsails: All foresails where the luff is attached to the forestay, baby stay, etc. Not a free flying sail.

Jib: A synonym for a Headsail.

Genoa: A subset of Jibs and Headsails, the largest of all jibs.

#1, #2, #3, etc.: descriptors of the jibs in the sail inventory with a #1 being the largest. The actual size may vary between boats and classes, i.e., one boat may have a #1 that is 150% of the LP and another boat have a #1 that is 170 % of the LP.

 

[jssailem]

Works for me Dave.. Certainly compatible with the nomenclature I have heard.

Dr Judy also provided supportive and specific sail info, as usual. I learned a couple of details I did not remember, forgot, or .... At least they are new to me... thank you.

 

[Will Gilmore]

There is so much to learn here, my mind is spinning and giggling at the stimulation.
I know there were, on old sailing ships, sails in front of the mast that were not attached to the forestay either. Sprits'ls and top sprits'ls. I would categorize those as headsails too.
The one term being used that catches with me, having grown up on a schooner, is foresail. That is a sail attached directly to the foremast, either fore-and-aft or on a yard. Not the same as a headsail.

-Will (Dragonfly)

 

[Will Gilmore]

There are also stays'ls not ahead of the mast, as well. They are stays'ls but not heads'ls.

-Will (Dragonfly)

 

[rgranger]

So. Correct me here if I'm wrong. A "Jib" is a headsail with no overlap; i.e., fits inside the foretriangle. You can have a working jib @ near 100% or a storm jib @ something less than that. In the days before headsail furling became widespread, one might call those No. 3 and No. 4, respectively. A "Genoa" is a headsail with some overlap. Say, 155%, 135%, or 120%. The geneoa at 155% would be No. 1; the lesser genny, usually near 120%, would be No. 2. I've noticed on this forum, and elsewhere, inconsistent use of the terms jib & genoa in reference to the headsail. It's not always clear which is being referred to. But, would anybody put a No. 3 on a furler for reefing? So, wouldn't the headsails on furlers nearly always be genoas?

My understanding is the same as yours. More than 100% and it is a genoa. Now... if we really want to get anal retentive... we could agree to change our nomenclature mid-sail if we reef our genoas below 100%...

 

[thinwater]

OK, then why do we need the word headsail? I've noticed on the websites of some sail lofts selling used sails, they distinguish between jibs and genoas under the term headsail.

Because chutes and reachers are headsails.