Report from CYC on lost crew in Mac race.
- Thread starter higgs
- Start date
PFD with an out-of-date Hammar hydrostatic auto inflator. Check your auto inflator expiration date folks.
OMG never go on deck in those kind of seas without a tied off...
Tether!
Even then you still might bust your butt, but not go outside the life rails.
Never a mention of Jack lines to go forward, by even hand grips on a line.
____
I do a MOB drill every time I take anyone out, never mind the sea state.
My sympathetic impression was they entire crew moved but were not thinking well.
I have a pack of 10 regular presevers that are in my cockpit lazarette to toss them all around a MOB.
Also 1 long Life Sling and a "swing and toss", about 100 feet, floating sling.
All in the cockpit.
We will bring you back alive if you are MOB on my boat.
Safety first...
Jim...
Tether!
Even then you still might bust your butt, but not go outside the life rails.
Never a mention of Jack lines to go forward, by even hand grips on a line.
____
I do a MOB drill every time I take anyone out, never mind the sea state.
My sympathetic impression was they entire crew moved but were not thinking well.
I have a pack of 10 regular presevers that are in my cockpit lazarette to toss them all around a MOB.
Also 1 long Life Sling and a "swing and toss", about 100 feet, floating sling.
All in the cockpit.
We will bring you back alive if you are MOB on my boat.
Safety first...
Jim...
I have a bias regarding safety gear including things like inflatable PFD/harness, tethers, knives, PLB's, flashlights, handheld VHF, even a handheld GPS. I carry my own and keep it in good working order. This crew was using owner supplied gear. The suggestion that they could have put a man in the water to effect a rescue seems ill advised. I wouldn't ask any crew member to do that, or allow it. Not in L.Michigan. Once the MOB submerged the window of rescue closed. Unspeakably tragic.
No.
I have never had a "under way" MOB, but I do a drill on every sail.
I just changed my 3 Auto-Inflator tablets and inspected vests in December. Also Xmas present was 3 brand new vests. Total of 6 now.
_____
@jssailem , you and I have discussed the "dual connection tether" and its value for "scooting" on your butt forward in high seas.
______
The key to this tragedy is the RACE!
Not that Racing is bad, but it seemed that the HURRY to adjust the trim, let the crew drop its safety regard, until the MOB. Plus the wind and sea state!!!
Most boats and crew are pushed hard in 25 knot winds, without Racing!
I suspect the "Driver" and "Crew" will never forget image of the MOB going down for the last time!!
Boating is a great sport.
Sail safely...FIRST!
Jim...
jssailem
SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
- Oct 22, 2014
- 23,139
During our Extreme Winter Adventure, I felt there was not a need to wear my dry suit. I dressed warmly in my follies and my 275N Spinlock. I considered the conditions and thought that my friends would be back to get me. Certainly conditions would have been difficult and if I could not climb back up onto the boat my safety would be to the creativity of my friends. We place trust in our fellow sailors.
We had tethers, jacklines, and care in going forward with a crew member watching the progress was a safety factor.
This event has me reviewing my solo boat procedures.
We had tethers, jacklines, and care in going forward with a crew member watching the progress was a safety factor.
This event has me reviewing my solo boat procedures.
There is one thing that strikes me about this tragedy that is not mentioned by anybody, and not even mentioned in the report. He slipped out the stern with hardly any restraint. The report and crew testify that he seemed to hit the stanchion pretty hard. Why is there a need for the stern to be so completely open? When I started reading this thread, I was thinking the poor guy went over the lifelines. But no, he was in the cockpit and he slid right through the open stern! Doesn't it seem odd that there is no mention that a secure cage at the stern would have prevented him from sliding in?
I'm sure that there are reasons for the open stern, but it also looks like a glaring safety weakness to me. It's just a little coincidental that I am reading this report while at the same time, I'm taking an OSHA 30 Hour course for work requirements. Barricades are the primary controls for safety, is what I'm studying.
If there were a secure barrier at the stern, this tragedy would not have happened. That seems to get lost in all of the discussion about under-utilized safety devices, inoperable inflation device, etc. There wasn't any mention about the nature of the open stern design (lacking an effective barricade) and how it contributed, actually, how it was primarily responsible, for the way the crew exited the boat. It also occurred to me that with all of their experience at sea, it does not appear that there was a single crew member whom had any real-world experience with COB - it goes to show that casually practicing the maneuver may not be effective when the circumstances are substantially more chaotic. I didn't really read deeply enough so I might have missed something in the report otherwise. It does seem that the complexity of the boat hinders the recovery, particularly with the sea-state and wind.
I'm sure that there are reasons for the open stern, but it also looks like a glaring safety weakness to me. It's just a little coincidental that I am reading this report while at the same time, I'm taking an OSHA 30 Hour course for work requirements. Barricades are the primary controls for safety, is what I'm studying.
If there were a secure barrier at the stern, this tragedy would not have happened. That seems to get lost in all of the discussion about under-utilized safety devices, inoperable inflation device, etc. There wasn't any mention about the nature of the open stern design (lacking an effective barricade) and how it contributed, actually, how it was primarily responsible, for the way the crew exited the boat. It also occurred to me that with all of their experience at sea, it does not appear that there was a single crew member whom had any real-world experience with COB - it goes to show that casually practicing the maneuver may not be effective when the circumstances are substantially more chaotic. I didn't really read deeply enough so I might have missed something in the report otherwise. It does seem that the complexity of the boat hinders the recovery, particularly with the sea-state and wind.
jssailem
SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
- Oct 22, 2014
- 23,139
Scott. You voice a great point. There are references that the location of the vang was behind the grinder position.
The open stern serves several design functions, as I understand. One the boats are built low to the water, minimum freeboard. This means that the boat will on occasion submarine allowing water to sweep across the boat. The open stern allows the water a path to leave the boat. Second is the design hull is all about speed. No stern means less weight, more speed. The aft end of the boat's hull is pretty flat giving the boat a great shape for planing. The boat is not displacement like your and my boat. It can go as fast or faster than the relative wind.
All of the design features are not conducive to crew safety. Crew need to strap on to the rocket. This crew felt they did not need to strap on. Tragic consequence.
The open stern serves several design functions, as I understand. One the boats are built low to the water, minimum freeboard. This means that the boat will on occasion submarine allowing water to sweep across the boat. The open stern allows the water a path to leave the boat. Second is the design hull is all about speed. No stern means less weight, more speed. The aft end of the boat's hull is pretty flat giving the boat a great shape for planing. The boat is not displacement like your and my boat. It can go as fast or faster than the relative wind.
All of the design features are not conducive to crew safety. Crew need to strap on to the rocket. This crew felt they did not need to strap on. Tragic consequence.
This from the Report.
"saw Jon had his arm draped around a leeward stanchion and was being dragged thru the water, waves full inhis face. He yelled “Man Overboard” and jumped down to try to reach Jon but was unable to get to him before Jon lost his grip and slid under the lifelines. Jon was wearing foul weather gear and a life jacket, which did not hydrostatically inflate as it should. There was also a manual-inflate option, but no one saw Jon attempt to reach the firing mechanism"
Jon [the COB] was manning the Vang control which was located behind the "Driver".
Not so important about lifelines, when you go under them.
If the boat was tacking, then the leeward side is an easy "fall overboard".
Hook your Tether to the life line!
Jim...
jssailem
SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
- Oct 22, 2014
- 23,139
Not my first choice... May not leave the boat but you'll be drowned as the boat plows through the waves.
It was a are by folks who had done this before with out incident. So they were smarter than the elements. decided not to tether in. In those open boats there is often a padeye or strong point to tether to the boat so that if you loose your footing you can fall but not fall off. The decision is like the one climbers make when they choose or not to tie in together while crossing an ice field or glacier.
I imagine it would be like trying to hold on while the cockpit canopy of your plane is removed and the rushing air is trying to suck you out.
Yes, the benefits of the open stern are readily apparent. What I'm suggesting is that there has been no consideration for a "cage" design that would be far more effective in restraining a COB before it happens.
It's a different circumstance than lifelines. Crew has to be able to swing their legs overboard for obvious performance issues. I even understand how crew is not inclined to use tethers during a race. It's a competitive, athletic event, not a recreational pursuit. Competition will always elevate risk. I will always recognize that competition will elevate acceptable risk and that equipment design will always factor performance as the highest priority.
However, I fail to see a performance factor that would prevent the design of a more secure cage at the stern of this type of competitive boat. A horizontal bar about 6" to 8" off the floor of the cockpit at the stern would prevent a sailor from sliding under the lifeline and would do nothing to hinder boat performance or water evacuation. What am I missing?
My WestMarine vests even have a manual Air filler, by mouth.
https://www.westmarine.com/WestAdvisor/DIY-Check-Your-Inflatable-Life-Vest
_____
Also the minute the Driver turned into the wind, the boat would right itself, giving you much needed freeboard.
But...
We would have pulled your butt aboard faster that you could have drowned.
_____
Try one of these too...
https://www.westmarine.com/WestAdvisor/Throw-Rope-Bags
I did at least 70', but no winds.
Jim...
https://www.westmarine.com/WestAdvisor/DIY-Check-Your-Inflatable-Life-Vest
_____
On a boat of this size and the right length tether, you will not be pulled under like a water skier.
Also the minute the Driver turned into the wind, the boat would right itself, giving you much needed freeboard.
But...
We would have pulled your butt aboard faster that you could have drowned.
_____
Try one of these too...
https://www.westmarine.com/WestAdvisor/Throw-Rope-Bags
I did at least 70', but no winds.
Jim...
jssailem
SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
- Oct 22, 2014
- 23,139
You're right. A bar or even a netting that would allow water passage but capture the crew. They use raised straps on the aircraft carrier to capture a plane when a tail hook breaks. There are all sorts of possible solutions.
I'm thinking of stringing netting around my boat life lines when I bring the grandkids aboard.
Racing has risks that are not like cruising. Even so, no mention was made of the helms man being tethered in. So my conjecture is the crew felt confident in their skills to survive with out aid in the conditions.
I thought the descriptions about a drowning victim by the CG was informative. Perhaps what the crew described as "calm, ok, glasses on his head" was the fact that he was drowning and is supported by what they observed as not being able to get to a float despite being identified as "one of the strongest swimmers".
Until you are in the water it is difficult to understand the vulnerability that exists. Surfing in my youth taught me to respect the power of waves.
This summer I think I need another water dunking to remind me of the experience.
I'm thinking of stringing netting around my boat life lines when I bring the grandkids aboard.
Racing has risks that are not like cruising. Even so, no mention was made of the helms man being tethered in. So my conjecture is the crew felt confident in their skills to survive with out aid in the conditions.
I thought the descriptions about a drowning victim by the CG was informative. Perhaps what the crew described as "calm, ok, glasses on his head" was the fact that he was drowning and is supported by what they observed as not being able to get to a float despite being identified as "one of the strongest swimmers".
Until you are in the water it is difficult to understand the vulnerability that exists. Surfing in my youth taught me to respect the power of waves.
This summer I think I need another water dunking to remind me of the experience.
What they mean are the stanchions at the stern for the stern lifelines, not a lifeline for a side deck. I agree with Scott that the stern seems like a place to have a more robust cage structure - maybe just a couple of carbon tubes running at various heights - rather than just widely spaced lifelines.
Yes, proving my point that restraints were inadequate. Hitting the stanchion may have caused injury and did nothing to prevent the victim from going overboard.
There is a reason why decks have guard rails that have specific dimensions for code compliance. I'm not suggesting that the stern must have 4" maximum openings (designed to prevent a baby from falling thru). But perhaps these sterns should be designed to prevent a full-grown man in thick clothing from sliding into the water from the cockpit floor!
I just read more of the accounts. Just one sailor seemed to make an offhand remark that the boat did not have a handhold to prevent Jon from sliding into the water. It seems like such a glaring safety omission to me, yet there is hardly any mention of it. If we think tethers are effective, why wouldn't we consider an appropriately designed barrier to be even more effective?
jssailem
SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
- Oct 22, 2014
- 23,139
To get buy in on the idea, you will need to have a design that still looks sexy to the owners and crew, yet provides the safety with no distraction from the boat speed and form.
Or you can set rules that require it in races.
I can see how such a structure might also become a hazard. A sail gets away and sweeps across the deck catching in the stern net/safety stanchions. Water sweeps onto the boat and engulfs the sail dragging the stern down.
Or you can set rules that require it in races.
I can see how such a structure might also become a hazard. A sail gets away and sweeps across the deck catching in the stern net/safety stanchions. Water sweeps onto the boat and engulfs the sail dragging the stern down.
My actions would have been...
1) Turn into the wind
2) Push my MOB button for GPS location and estimated MOB drifting calcs.
3) Use the Jib to "heave too" and have Pointers watching
4) Start my engine
5) Start tossing life rings and regular Life Vests in the water.
6) Set course
7) Drop sails
8) Ready the LifeSling for pick up, since the COB was NOT unconscious.
9) Call Coast Guard.
Here is the problem with Sail boat rescues.
The sail boat is designed for moving and not rescues.
Always, one hand for the boat and one hand for you!
____
I am NOT disagreeing with Scott, but this was a borrowed boat.
Put it this way, you can't go overboard on my boat from the cockpit area. My stern is all tubing, not life lines.
____
After thinking about this a bit more I think I need to have a designated "Swimmer" to jump in water and rescue an unconscious MOB. Of course the swimmer would be properly tied off too.
Jim...
1) Turn into the wind
2) Push my MOB button for GPS location and estimated MOB drifting calcs.
3) Use the Jib to "heave too" and have Pointers watching
4) Start my engine
5) Start tossing life rings and regular Life Vests in the water.
6) Set course
7) Drop sails
8) Ready the LifeSling for pick up, since the COB was NOT unconscious.
9) Call Coast Guard.
Here is the problem with Sail boat rescues.
The sail boat is designed for moving and not rescues.
Now ya talking !
Always, one hand for the boat and one hand for you!
____
I am NOT disagreeing with Scott, but this was a borrowed boat.
Put it this way, you can't go overboard on my boat from the cockpit area. My stern is all tubing, not life lines.
____
After thinking about this a bit more I think I need to have a designated "Swimmer" to jump in water and rescue an unconscious MOB. Of course the swimmer would be properly tied off too.
Jim...