The order of things...

[Don Guillette]

Something Don alluded to but didn't come out and say, the toys the boat has currently may or may not be up to snuff. Case in point, the 4:1 traveler block assembly that came with the 270 was original (read..old) and took two hands and one foot on the bulkhead to adjust under any load at all. For the first two years it didn't get used much. The Garhauer 6:1 upgrade was reasonably cheap, and now the car can be moved even when well loaded and gets used all the time. Upgrades can fall under the maintenance refresh column and have a huge impact.

That's exactly the case with my original C30 curved track traveler - I thought the problem would be solved with the end block upgrade that I had Garhauer build for me but the real problem was the crappy car that had rubber rollers (4) that were falling apart. Additionally, the movement of the car on the track was a problem in itself. In other words, on the downhill side of the track the pulling motion would cause one end of the car to lift creating more inefficiency. Note: Garhauers straight track traveler, which I purchased together with their mainsheet block system, eliminates that problem and with about 8 million machined ball bearings in the car you could move the system with 2 fingers.
On the traveler upgrade I had Garhauer build for me - I had high hopes it would be a cheap fix but the first time I used it it didn't work. I ended up selling the whole setup to a sailor who wanted to return his C30 to original condition. I told him the thing didn't work but he wanted it anyway.

 

[Jackdaw]

Interesting. Taking the sag out of the headsail depowers the sail. It it has always seamed too improve the air foil and drive a better air flow through the slot. Let me point higher with out noticeable change in speed. Was this illusionary?

Yup. Sag introduces a deeper, fuller shape to the sail from the point of entry. Deeper shape is powerful. Up to a point. Then you flatten to depower.

In light airs we slacken our rig so you can shake the forestay in a 1 foot circle.
In breeze it is rod tight.

A good what to thing about this. All boats have a 'powered up point'
It normally around 14 knots true wind.
Below that point you are using sail controls to add power to the plan.
Above that point you are finding ways to deal with the extra power.

 

[Meriachee]

The early Garhauer travelers had theines on the sides.

Additionally, the movement of the car on the track was a problem in itself.

The early designs had the controls in front of the car. That put strain on the bearings in two planes, and that's a darn good reason for fatigue, wear and resistance to movement when loaded. The upgrade kit and the new ones put the controls on top of the car, in the same plane as the boom loads and eliminate the side forces. Plus the new ones are 6:1, which makes life easy when there isn't a deck gorilla around.

 

[DrJudyB]

OK so somehow we buy a 20 year old cruzy sloop, and now its time to turbo it.

First make sure what is there is in good order.
Then made sure nothing is missing, backstay, vang, adjustable everything. If you can't control it, its unlikely to be fast.

Sails. BUDGET this in with the cost, so you can get them right away. Almost nobody sells a boat with great sails. Obvouisly need a spinnaker if you are serious about going downwind.

Folding prop
Clean bottom
Low stretch (dyneema) cored halyards and sheets.

At this point you have a chance.
Then I would look at double ending control lines (backstay, vang, foreguy) so they can work form both ends.
Double the purchase on loaded block (jib car adjusters, vang, backstay)

Now your getting tricky.. look for things that make crew work faster, easier.

Jackdaw, IMO, gave you a great answer "philosophically." I agree with his perspective on what's important. My only (minor) point of difference with him is that I'd put a higher priority on a clean, smooth bottom than the folding prop.

I organize the project by focusing on eliminating deficiencies in three key areas. The precise order in which you do the upgrades depends on your budget and the cost/benefit analysis.

Great foil shapes above and below the water (including good halyards)
Easily operated trim controls
Reduce parasitic drag above and below the waterline. Have a smooth bottom, uncluttered mast.

But before you do any "performance enhancements" Fix anything that's suspect in terms of preventing sudden failure, including standing and running rigging, thoroughly inspect all components on the mast for wear, corrosion, etc.

A) Get beautifully shaped foils above and below the water. Sails should have have excellent shape, rudder faired, keel faired
B) Replace/repair hard sail trim controls that are hard to operate. Replace stretchy halyards.
C) Reduce drag above and below the water. Clean, smooth bottom. Get rid of extra weight and gizmos aloft.
D) Reduce weight below and above. Heavy boats are slow. Clean out all the junk you don't need aboard. Sand off 20 years of old bottom paint. Avoid heavy hardware aloft - it's antiballast. It will improve stability and you'll be able to carry more sail area.

I emphatically agree with Don G that sliding genoa cars are a must have if you really want to trim actively.I can't emphasize enough making sure that you can easily use the trim controls. If it's hard to use the outhaul, cunningham, vang, genoa car, or backstay, you won't use them.

Here's an example of how I approach my newest boat. My new toy is a 1992 Corsair F24 Trimaran with no structural or safety deficiencies. She came with an okay mainsail (not great) and a baggy genoa, and old-fashioned asymm spinnaker. Low stretch mainsail halyard in worn condition. Jib halyard is new but stretchy.

I consider myself "a performance" sailor, but not a racer. I like to have the boat trimmed in perfect balance, which is always fast. I also single hand frequently, so I want certain controls accessible from the helm.

I've budgeted for all new sails (main, jib, screecher/code zero for light air close angles, cruising chute for light air deeper angles), a new bottom job, fairing the rudder, low-stretch halyards for main and jib. These items are "must-haves" for performance, in my opinion.

I'm removing/replacing all the old bottom paint and fairing the rudder. That's a must-do's for performance, in my opinion.

I'm no gorilla, so the traveller needs upgrading to higher purchase. I want to bew able to play the traveller with one hand (for gusts and driving in waves, not for rounding marks) and drive with the other hand. I want 8:1 on the outhaul (at least), accessible from the helm, or else I won't use it enough. Fine and coarse time on the mainsheet.

Since this boat is 14' wide trimaran I'll be adding barberhaulers and twings in strategic locations for fine trim control of the headsails and spinnakers when reaching.

I don't need a backstay adjuster on the Corsair. There's no backstay on the Corsair F-24, due to the fathead mainsail and huge roach, but the aft swept shrouds have high purchase tensioners to control forestay sag when needed. But I've had and used backstay adjusters on all my boats, masthead and fractional alike.

Next year she'll get a modern high aspect rudder. It's not as pressing a need for this year, and it's too expensive for this year's budget, but it will make a huge difference in the boat's performance at high speeds.

Judy B
1992 Corsair F-24 Trimaran
San Francisco Bay, CA
Sailmaker

 

[gettinthere]

I figured out that I'm not a 'heavy weather' sailor, prefer benign conditions. So a light air sail would be a good addition to the 135 genoa. But I'm also not up for wrestling an asym out of the V berth nor did I want to give up that space. So the compromise is a 'Code Zero' with a sacrificial cover and rigged on a continuous line furler. With this setup, I can leave it up semi-permanantly which means it is ready to go which means I actually use it. I can generally count on 80% of wind speed, the sail is rated up to 20 knots apparent, it's fantastic in 5 to 10 knots of breeze and points almost as well as the genoa. Downwind I sheet it out to the toe rail; upwind, I can run it thru my garhauer adjustable cars on my very long inboard jib track, tight to the spreaders.
Different strokes for different folks.

 

[Don Guillette]

I consider myself "a performance" sailor, but not a racer. I like to have the boat trimmed in perfect balance, which is always fast.

Judy: There isn't any difference between racing trim & cruising trim -- there's only a right way and a wrong way to trim sails. Do you know who told me that -- Dennis Conner!! It was 100 years ago during the America Cup in San Diego. My wife and I were sitting in a Shelter Island bar enjoying the Aussie sailors -- we wanted to buy them a round but they'd have none of that and bought us drinks!! The Americas were pains in the ass and wouldn't bother with anyone but the Aussies were entirely different. Anyway, a guy comes in who they all recognized but we didn't, and sits nest to us and starts talking to us. It was Dennis Conner but I didn't know that until later. For all I knew he could have been my friend and frequent lister on this forum "Joe from San Diego". After he left a Aussie sailor who looked bigger than Paul Bunyon told us who we were talking to.

It was a great experience and the majority of the stuff in my book & chart comes from Dennis's book "Sail Like A Champion". It's been a long time since I remembered that meeting. Thank you for helping me bring back that memory.

 

[DrJudyB]

Judy: There isn't any difference between racing trim & cruising trim -- there's only a right way and a wrong way to trim sails.

 

[Jackdaw]

Judy: There isn't any difference between racing trim & cruising trim -- there's only a right way and a wrong way to trim sails.

I don't think that thats true. While the trim of course starts the same, Crusiers set and basicly forget until something starts flapping. Racers trim ALL THE TIME. They adjust based on the smallest changes. They also know when they are fast and when they are slow, because when they are slow they are getting their butts kicked.

 

[DrJudyB]

I

I don't think that thats true. While the trim of course starts the same, Crusiers set and basicly forget until something starts flapping. Racers trim ALL THE TIME. They adjust based on the smallest changes. They also know when they are fast and when they are slow, because when they are slow they are getting their butts kicked.

Hey, wait a gosh-darn minute! I resemble that remark! I'm a cruiser. But just because I'm a cruiser doesn't mean I can't kick your over a very long course with short handed crew. I'm a serious sailing geek, but I don't race.

I would argue that I don't need to race to be a good trimmer. Good trimming is good trimming and good driving is good driving, whether you're racing or cruising.

I would argue that if I want to be a good racer, I need to learn how to helm, how to trim, all about starts, mark roundings, spinnaker take downs, etc. Likewise, I would argue that if I want to be a great cruiser, I need to learn how to helm, how to trim, how to anchor, how to plan ahead, how to maintain systems, etc.

I would also argue that performance cruising is closer to single- and double-handed ocean racing than fully crewed windward/leeward or Gran Prix racing. The goal, for high performance cruising, is the same as for round-the-buoy racers - to sail the boat as perfectly as possible.

Judy B

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Interesting. Taking the sag out of the headsail depowers the sail. It it has always seamed too improve the air foil and drive a better air flow through the slot. Let me point higher with out noticeable change in speed. Was this illusionary?

I agree with you that a backstay adjuster is VERY functional on a masthead rig. The times when I've forgotten to use it are always when I have a guest at the helm, often with a heavy wind. When I realize the oversight and tension the backstay, the reaction from the helmsperson is always the same ... it's like 'wow, what a difference! Suddenly the helm is light feeling and balanced.' I think with a loose luff, the draft increases and the weatherhelm is significant, even for a head sail. Tighten the luff of the headsail and weatherhelm is virtually eliminated. I've never bought into the notion that raking the mast back increases weatherhelm, probably because I just haven't experienced it. I think weather helm has a lot more to do with excessive draft, whether it is the headsail or the mainsail, or both. I also think the shape and position of the keel also has more to do with how a boat reacts in regard to weatherhelm than the sail plan.

 

[Jackdaw]

I


Hey, wait a gosh-darn minute! I resemble that remark! I'm a cruiser. But just because I'm a cruiser doesn't mean I can't kick your over a very long course with short handed crew. I'm a serious sailing geek, but I don't race.

I would argue that I don't need to race to be a good trimmer. Good trimming is good trimming and good driving is good driving, whether you're racing or cruising.

I would argue that if I want to be a good racer, I need to learn how to helm, how to trim, all about starts, mark roundings, spinnaker take downs, etc. Likewise, I would argue that if I want to be a great cruiser, I need to learn how to helm, how to trim, how to anchor, how to plan ahead, how to maintain systems, etc.

I would also argue that performance cruising is closer to single- and double-handed ocean racing than fully crewed windward/leeward or Gran Prix racing. The goal, for high performance cruising, is the same as for round-the-buoy racers - to sail the boat as perfectly as possible.

Judy B

;^)

Hey Judy! First, I'm not going to disagree with you, because I think we are so aligned philosophically that any differences are at the pedantic level.

But I'll explain my statement. By using part of your quote:

just because I'm a cruiser doesn't mean I can't kick your over a very long course with short handed crew

I like that. And it might be true. But the trick is; how would you know?

And what would it mean to me if you were 100% right?
What would it mean for you if you were dead wrong?

Thats the thing. Racers KNOW. They know because they can see results of trim changes on relative boat speed to others. And they apply it. As we sail we are constant watching our trim, the trim of others, and how the breeze and sea state effect that, and the speed that we move through the water. We talk about it in a constant loop of improving performance. We see the improvement in trim showing up as improvments in race placement.

As a racer I know pretty well where I stand on trim. I know who I'm better than. And who I can learn from. Because racers share their fast.

So you get better. You know what parts of your trim you need to improve. What sea state you suffer in. You learn to Wally, to shift-forward, to change gears.

I short-hand cruise a lot. On very high performance boats. And when I do we try to sail to polars all this time. But even that is not that same as having a like boat nearby racing that is somehow slightly higher or faster than you are. Or BOTH! So you stare at their sail plan. You look at where their traveller and cars are. You get better through imitation. And you add that to your collective knowlege base.

I'm convinced it leads to better trim. And all of that is very hard to do as a cruiser.

New racers at our club are constantly shocked when I (or others) come up to them at the party and offer advice on their trim and tactics. While I was on the other side of the course. They ask how we know they were having an issue. We tell them we're watching EVERYONES sails, and how they go thought the water.

Does it make for better overall sailors? No. I know lots of good racers I would not sail offshore with under their command. But thats a different question!

 

[DrJudyB]

I don't think that thats true. While the trim of course starts the same, Crusiers set and basicly forget until something starts flapping. Racers trim ALL THE TIME. They adjust based on the smallest changes. They also know when they are fast and when they are slow, because when they are slow they are getting their butts kicked.

Jack, my dear buddy, we are in agreement that racing is a good way to challenge yourself to trim better (helm better, tack better, jibe better, start better, etc), and that racing provides lots of feedback on how well you are doing when you compare yourself to boats that have the same rating as you do or in one design.

But .... I can't resist giving you a hard time about "Cruisers set and basically forget until something starts flapping."

I don't race much, but I get to sail on a lot of boats. And I've been a student in some high-level, one-design racing seminars by highly respected, professional racing coaches. I found out that I needed a lot more work on my starts, was decent at helming and rounding marks, and that I was often better than anybody else on the boat at trimming, even the coaches. That's how I know.

I don't race because I don't like working that hard. You couldn't PAY me enough to hike out for extended periods of time. I'm definitely not in shape to do that any more. I don't move as fast as I used to.

I'm the little old lady from Passadena.
Go Granny, Go Granny, Go Granny, Go!

 

[Jackdaw]

But .... I can't resist giving you a hard time about "Cruisers set and basically forget until something starts flapping."

LOL Fair enough, I deserved that totally.

I knew it was an overreach when I wrote it, and certainly not true for all cases. I knew someone might object and was OK that that... I kinda cringed when I saw it was you! You're not typical. ;^)

 

[Don Guillette]

I don't think that thats true. While the trim of course starts the same, Crusiers set and basicly forget until something starts flapping. Racers trim ALL THE TIME. They adjust based on the smallest changes. They also know when they are fast and when they are slow, because when they are slow they are getting their butts kicked.

It is true. You're generalizing and going way beyond the context of the statement. You indicated that the "trim starts off the same", which validates Dennis Conner statement and then you go off lumping ALL cruisers set & forget into one group and ALL racers into another group, which is ridiculous. Not all racers trim ALL THE TIME. I don't want to generalize but I'm stuck. My experience is that the top 3 or 4 finishers probably trim all the time. The middle 1/3 maybe, but I doubt it, and the bottom 1/3 are trying to figure out what to do from a sail trim standpoint. Generally speaking, the top 1/4 of cruisers have forgotten what you and I know combined about sail trim. The middle group from 50% to 75% don't set it and forget it. They don't fixate on sail trim but they want to get it right. The group from 25% to 50% really don't know what they don't know and they're just happy that the boats moves through the water. The bottom 1/4% just want to get better at sail trim and figure out what they don't know.

 

[Fast Ed]

Folding prop is first on the list for me. The folder costs less than half of a new sail. It works in all conditions, and greatly aids light air performance. In my family the admiral does not like to sail in high winds. With the folder we can sail in moderate and light winds and get close to hull speed.

 

[D.L.Bland]

Well dang ! now you guys got me a chompin at th'bit t' understand more of this foresl de-powerin concept!
So, reckon it kinda makes sense, ( like Cunningham s & outhauls do) but ??? I kina felt like jackin m'forestay taught helped my jib shape too??? Now I did remember once I caused a signif. weather helm, an backed 'er off a wee bit,

 

[D.L.Bland]

Even on a masthead boat, adding backstay tension will reduce head stay sag, which is a primary way to depower the headsail.

Actually a fractional mast (where the mast bends) has LESS of this efffect.

Wait, can you help me grasp that better? I'm one who don't mind findin out what I don't know , in fact I relish such revelations !

 

[Jackdaw]

My experience is that the top 3 or 4 finishers probably trim all the time. The middle 1/3 maybe, but I doubt it, and the bottom 1/3 are trying to figure out what to do from a sail trim standpoint. Generally speaking, the top 1/4 of cruisers have forgotten what you and I know combined about sail trim. The middle group from 50% to 75% don't set it and forget it. They don't fixate on sail trim but they want to get it right. The group from 25% to 50% really don't know what they don't know and they're just happy that the boats moves through the water. The bottom 1/4% just want to get better at sail trim and figure out what they don't know.

Then you've been racing with the wrong guys. And I 100% disagree with your comment about the 'top 1/4 of cruisers'. I've sailed with a ton of so-called 'top cruisers', and they all will (yes ALL) cheerfully admit that they are focused on ease of sail management and not having to touch them. They simply focus and care about other things. To say that that they are experts on trim is silly.

 

[Meriachee]

Ease of management makes good sense as long as it's equal results for less effort. Or, equal results for less input. Less result, however, no thanks.

 

[D.L.Bland]

oK, SO MY INTEREST IS PIKED !
I'm a bloke who is intrigued to hear anyone's point of view,
no judgement required. Some fun racing helps all of us improve our trim & methods, I reckon , eh?