Wash down pump plumbed to head water intake?

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

Plus using POISONOUS Antifreeze around any thing that people can use (sink, galley, heads) is not recommended.
Jim...

Ethylene glycol (automotive) anti-freeze is toxic... non-toxic propylene glycol marine/rv antifreeze ("the pink stuff") is, as the name implies, not. If it were it could not be used in potable water systems, which it often is.\

You dump antifreeze into the bowl and pump it dry through the waste hoses and valves to the holding tank. Then you disconnect the waste hoses from the pump, and open the bowl bottom drain. NO antifreeze is used in a Jabsco manual toilet pump - that is the manufacturer's instruction. Instead you drain it down and open it up at the bottom waste connection.

The same mfr also recommends using ethylene glycol antifreeze--which is very destructive to the rubber parts in a toilet.

Much simpler to either disconnect the toilet intake line from the thru-hull (close the seacock first!), stick into a jug of the "pink stuff" and pump the whole gallon all the way through to the tank...or, if your toilet inlet line is teed into the head sink drain line, close the seacock on the head sink drain thru-hull, pour "the pink stuff" down the sink and flush it all the way through to the tank. That is, AFTER you've not only pumped out the tank but THOROUGHLY rinsed it out.

 

[Dan_Y]

Last fall I ran across the pink stuff that I first though was the standard non-toxic RV antifreeze. I became suspicious because the price was sorta low. Label showed it to be alcohol based Isn't that stuff bad for some plumbing and seals?

 

[Capt jgw]

Don't know about it being bad for the seals but alcohol will evaporate over time. That could reduce or eliminate the freeze protection. One of the reasons we use the compounds we do for antifreeze is they don't evaporate readily.

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

I've never heard of any freeze damage caused by using the "pink stuff" nor have I ever heard that it evaporates. But it doesn't matter 'cuz it's not freezing temperatures that cause freeze damage. Water expands 10% when it freezes where there's no room for expansion. So using something that evaporates to replace water in a system isn't gonna cause any damage.

 

[JamesG161]

Ethylene Glycol ( most people don't read Antifreeze labels) is considered a POISON! A pint of cheap Bourbon is Toxic. BTW Ethanol is the antidote to Antifreeze.
Ethylene Glycol is highly toxic and considered a poison to keep children from its sweet taste.
Skin contact counts! Fish don't like it either on your flush out!
Toxic mean you get sick and if you over do it, DIE! But normally you , or damage lungs, etc.

The only FDA approved antifreeze to be used in food preparations, hospitals, sinks, or anything people touch , eat, and have a slight chance of contact is....

Propylene Glycol

Yep, slight chemical difference but it is safe.

Don't know about it being bad for the seals but alcohol will evaporate over time.

Yep, that is why you must maintain it in a sealed system. Also Ethanol is inflammable and Propylene Glycol does not support combustion.

Safety first! Use chemicals properly and read the labels.
Jim....

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

Last fall I ran across the pink stuff that I first though was the standard non-toxic RV antifreeze. I became suspicious because the price was sorta low. Label showed it to be alcohol based Isn't that stuff bad for some plumbing and seals?

Dan, if it's labeled "non-toxic" it is. And yes, non-toxic propylene glycol is alcohol based. But it's no more damaging to the rubber parts in toilets than many of the tank treatments people pour through them. And, unlike water that freezes and expands when it does, it doesn't freeze, so it protects the pump from damage.

Why are we talking about winterizing in the spring when most people are still UNwinterizing???

 

[centerline]

re-route the toilet intake lin to tee it into the head sink drain line (there's been lots of discussion about that on this site...search for it) and re-purpose the head intake thru-hull to be the dedicated washdown pump thru-hull. That not only provides a safe source of fresh water to rinse the sea water out of the whole system--inlet line, pump channel in the rim of the bowl AND the discharge line, but all you have to do to add antifreeze is pour it down the sink.

depending on the size of the thruhull fitting, this may not work as well as one thinks it should.... because when pumping and sucking water into the toilet, it will likely have more pull than can be supplied by the water coming in thru the thru hull, and so about the second stroke of the handle and it will suck air from the sink drain....
it is this exact reason why a washdown pump does not work properly when plumbed into a sink drain hose...

 

[woodster]

you some times have to put a sink stopper in the sink to make this work

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

I guess someone should have told Tartan and other builders who plumbed their head sinks and toilets to share a common thru-hull that it wouldn't work. But it does because that's a problem that's easily solved: put a plug in the sink.

 

[woodster]

the HeadMistress rocks ...........

 

[Gunni]

The cheap propylene AF does often contain alcohol, you can tell if the label warns you about flammability. All propylene AF DOES NOT contain alcohol, but you pay more for it. The guys at Practical Sailor (Thinwater) recently did a test of alcohol based propylene AF on flapper valves and determined how destructive the stuff is on internal parts. My PO used cheap vodka from the PX to winterize and managed to destroy pretty much all the washers, o-rings and flex valves in the plumbing system.

 

[woodster]

The cheap propylene AF does often contain alcohol, you can tell if the label warns you about flammability. All propylene AF DOES NOT contain alcohol, but you pay more for it. The guys at Practical Sailor (Thinwater) recently did a test of alcohol based propylene AF on flapper valves and determined how destructive the stuff is on internal parts. My PO used cheap vodka from the PX to winterize and managed to destroy pretty much all the washers, o-rings and flex valves in the plumbing system.

not to mention wasting the cheap vodka

 

[MattObjects]

Thanks to everyone for your suggestions. We sail in the Upper Chesapeake, where water is sometimes a little thin and often a bit muddy and/or weedy, so we have strainers on every raw water inlet aboard the boat. I appreciate the suggestion to tee the wash down pump into the outlet for the sink drain but the sink in my head is not designed to accommodate a plug--the grate over the drain is flush with the bottom of the sink basin (the sink is positioned near the center line of the boat so we've never had a problem with water siphoning in through the sink, even when heeled very hard over). Given that, I think I will tee the wash down pump into the toilet inlet line as originally suggested.

On a side note, it is obvious to me the original plumbing was installed in the head before the cabinetry surrounding it was put into place. Reaching the plumbing fittings inside the cabinet with my hands requires balancing in the raised cabinet opening on an armpit while my body is twisted over the raised threshold to the head, across the entrance to the v-berth, and then over the raised threshold to the saloon, where my legs are against the pilot berth. It is a contorted position I cannot maintain for longer than 3-4 minutes at a time. The cabinet in the head containing all of this plumbing shares a bulkhead with the v-berth stowage that contains the holding tank. Is there any reason not to make an access hatch in this bulkhead to make it possible to service the plumbing in the head cabinet from the more accessible v-berth side?

 

[Ron20324]

[QUOTE="MattObjects,...Given that, I think I will tee the wash down pump into the toilet inlet line as originally suggested.
...?[/QUOTE]
Remember to have a screen filter before the pump, not just the grate. Perhaps the pump will come with one?

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

. I appreciate the suggestion to tee the wash down pump into the outlet for the sink drain but the sink in my head

You have it backwards. I did not suggest teeing the washdown pump into the head drain...I suggested re-routing the head intake line to tee into the head sink drain, which would accomplish two things: 1. provide a safe source (the sink) of clean fresh water to flush the sea water out of the entire sanitation system--the intake line, pump, channel in the rim of the bowl and the head discharge line...and 2. free up the head intake thru-hull to use for the washdown pump.

Is there any reason not to make an access hatch in this bulkhead to make it possible to service the plumbing in the head cabinet from the more accessible v-berth side?

No reason at all not to do that, and every good reason to do it.

 

[MattObjects]

Remember to have a screen filter before the pump, not just the grate. Perhaps the pump will come with one?

I decided to install in-line strainers on the raw-water intake lines in the galley and head shortly after we bought the boat because we like to anchor up little creeks where duckweed and other small plants were getting sucked right through the grates. The strainers don't catch everything-- the toilet bowl will still glow at night if there are bioluminescent microorganisms in the water--but keeping the bigger particles out of the toilet and raw water galley sink hose significantly improves the scent aboard. The wash down pump also came with a smaller screen filter strainer, so we're extra good as far as that goes.

 

[MattObjects]

You have it backwards. I did not suggest teeing the washdown pump into the head drain...I suggested re-routing the head intake line to tee into the head sink drain . . .

Understood. I really like that idea but am thinking it may not work for me given the inability to put a plug in my sink. I will keep it in mind if I ever replace the sink basin with a sink that will accommodate a plug.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Understood. I really like that idea but am thinking it may not work for me given the inability to put a plug in my sink. I will keep it in mind if I ever replace the sink basin with a sink that will accommodate a plug.

Mine works without a plug. Depends on how high it is in relation to everything else and the location of the waterline.

 

[seadaddler]

Mine works with out a plug
Nick

 

[Head Sail]

That is, AFTER you've not only pumped out the tank but THOROUGHLY rinsed it out.

Peggy, is there any way to THROUGHLY rise out the holding tank? I've tried filling with fresh water through the deck fitting or by pumping through the toilet but never seems to stop bringing up "substance"