Not being able to see where you are going

Feb 26, 2004
23,343
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
except that it confirmed my own opinion that not being able to see where you are going is not a good idea.
Yup.

a proper lookout at all times when underway is the most important one that tops the list of many things that come to mind....
But anything that can help visibility is good. Very, very good.

Many folks who have deck sweepers race. Most folks who race have crew, some times many crew.

I don't and have the foot of my jib as high off the deck as the top of my pulpit. The foot of the jib never rubs on anything.

On port tack and I can easily see ahead for any starboard tack boats.

Not so hard to understand.
 
Mar 20, 2012
3,983
Cal 34-III, MacGregor 25 Salem, Oregon
Yup.



But anything that can help visibility is good. Very, very good.

Many folks who have deck sweepers race. Most folks who race have crew, some times many crew.

I don't and have the foot of my jib as high off the deck as the top of my pulpit. The foot of the jib never rubs on anything.

On port tack and I can easily see ahead for any starboard tack boats.

Not so hard to understand.
I agree... no matter if its eyes, devices or technique, one has to be able to see, to understand, and have a reasonable care to maintain safety all around.

after we have done everything within our power to practice safe and observant seamanship, I agree with Walt that its aggravating when we encounter some klutz who has no care of what may be happening around him, or who his foolish ways may be affecting.... but this is the best reason to take action to avoid a situation, BEFORE a situation arises.
by always assuming the other driver is lost and delusional in his own little world somewhere, I can take the proper action to avoid getting tangled up in it with him...

BUT... we arent all perfect all the time:biggrin:.....
last fall, on a beautiful sunny day, I was motoring up river at full throttle, to our favorite anchorage, but I did NOT have the autopilot on, (which likely would have prevented the situation because it wanders just a bit when running up the river against the shifting currents).... and when steering by hand, I can focus on a point ahead and keep the boat dead on course....

there was only a couple of other boats out as we were early in the day.
then a 16-18ft zodiac passed us, WOT with two people onboard, in the same direction as we were going, a couple hundered yards off of our port side.... I watched it for about a mile or so and then returned to my task of keeping on my "line" of travel.....
in about 5 minutes I heard a single yelp.... then it all happened so fast that it seems like devine intervention....

the zodiac had stalled, and for some reason drifted down dead on my bow, hidden from my position at the helm, behind the mast and sail cover...
I did not see it, but instinctively cranked the wheel to starboard, barely missing a dead center broadside of the zodiac.... I did clip it in the rear quarter, turning it so it came scuffing down the side of our boat, port to port, both occupants still standing up (ready to jump?)..... all this happened within a second, and did not have time to shut the throttle down until they were at my stern......

as they were flashing by, I remember them hollering apologies for being in my way, and Im not sure if the apologies were meant for me or jesus, but they seemed to be looking for forgiveness and possible salvation at the moment for something they though they had done wrong....

I was cussing and feeling terrible because I knew I was the one at fault and in my mind, a near miss ranks up there pretty close to an accident, as it shows carelessness.....

after swinging around and apologizing, then jumping aboard their boat and figuring out what their mechanical problems were (fuel line came detached, but looked as if it was still fully connected), they happily went on their merry way, and I learned that it doesnt matter if there are no other boats around, one needs to be fully aware of their surroundings all the time.

I dont get shaken or excited very often, but that encounter shook me.... I still wonder how I missed seeing such a large boat dead ahead on a calm flat day, and the "what if" I had been a split second slower on the helm:(.....
 
Last edited:
May 17, 2004
6,151
Beneteau Oceanis 37 Havre de Grace
I agree with those who say that "irresponsible" is too strong a word for deck sweepers. Yes, the sail can reduce visibility, and that's something that the helmsman needs to account for. But like Jackdaw says, the speeds are low enough that there's plenty of opportunity to responsibly keep a good lookout, and Scott presents a good way to do that.

The same argument could be made about chart plotter screens, telltales, or any other distraction. The helmsman just needs to have the discipline to pay attention.
 

WayneH

.
Jan 22, 2008
1,121
Tartan 37 287 Pensacola, FL
I did NOT maintain a proper lookout with my deck sweeper one day. Riding the current down to Pensacola Pass and I was watching for traffic. However, having a green can appear off your starboard beam about 10 feet away is an eye opening experience. Especially when the can is making about 3.5 knots!!!! After that incident, I attached a 12 inch pennant to the bottom of the deck sweeper to lift it off the deck. The luff was a little short already so I didn't lose in sail area.
 
Sep 25, 2008
1,096
CS 30 Toronto
A proper lookout is the key, but I single hand quite a bit.
Found a chart plotter with video input. Rigged a pair of security cameras on the Bimini frame to look under the big jib. I can see without having to hangout on the low side. Pretty cheap solution.
 
Oct 26, 2008
6,432
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
Sail boats with forward looking cameras & an alarm system .... I can see the future!
 

capta

.
Jun 4, 2009
5,072
Pearson 530 Admiralty Bay, Bequia SVG
Constantly having to deal with bareboaters, fishing skiffs, ferries, fish trap buoys and small interisland freighters, I'm much happier sailing with my Yankee/staysail rig than our big genoa. Not that there are many days in a year when a big gene is advantageous down here.
At any rate, it is YOUR responsibility to be able to see everything else out there on the water with you, so prudent seamanship would dictate that you have a sail that allows you to do that. If you don't have one, perhaps it is time to get one, before something happens.
 

Joe

.
Jun 1, 2004
8,315
Catalina 27 Mission Bay, San Diego
Keep your air horn handy...... you can't control what the other guy does... but you can let him know you're there. If you want a decksweeper order it with a big window. I will tell you that when single handing, the large genoa can sometimes be a handful...besides impairing visibility. I don't use my too much when single handing.... preferring the blade instead.
 
Mar 1, 2012
2,182
1961 Rhodes Meridian 25 Texas coast
Unless you are racing, with a crew to keep watch to leeward, in my opinion, sailing short handed ( two crew or less) a deck sweeping jib is totally irresponsible, no matter HOW much extra drive it gives. It blocks your view and is unsafe.

Period

My jibs are ALL on pennants to raise them so I can see under.
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Unless you are racing, with a crew to keep watch to leeward, in my opinion, sailing short handed ( two crew or less) a deck sweeping jib is totally irresponsible, no matter HOW much extra drive it gives. It blocks your view and is unsafe.

Period
That's so funny that I wasn't going to comment.

But I changed my mind.

I have a friend who is bind in one eye. He has a MN drivers license. Actually driving like that is legal in all states. He is a VERY good driver. I feel very safe with him. Why? He ADAPTED to his situation. So does anyone who sails safely with a deck sweeping headsail. Or with any of the 1000 other things that limit your ability to use one of your senses 100% of the time. Just because you cannot adapt does not make it irresponsible for the rest of us.
 

walt

.
Jun 1, 2007
3,550
Macgregor 26S Hobie TI Ridgway Colorado
I didnt go back and look at where the irresponsible term first started.. but I might have. You might be real smart, real aware etc but if you make the choice to put something in front of you that significantly blocks your view of where you are going, you increase the percent chance of having some sort of accident. I personally think its fine to put yourself in any level of safety risk.. thankfully we can still do that. But... when you make a choice (because you sail a little faster) that increases the chances of causing harm to some one else.. that might be called irresponsible..

Sailing was compared to walking earlier so lets do that again. Walking speed is maybe 3.5 knots, sailing speed can be twice that. Even a smaller trailer sailor might have 70 to 100 times the Kinetic energy of a person walking. At 7 knots, a sailboat is covering 11.8 feet every second. Im somewhat also glad that you can still also make the choice to do this.. but dont see the logic saying this is completely reasonable.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Likes: BudGates

bshock

.
Jan 18, 2013
126
Beneteau 361 Sandusky Harbor Marina
It would seem to me that the usage of a deck sweeper is not irresponsible, but rather a PERSON is irresponsible who does not utilize a deck sweeper in a safe manner.
 

walt

.
Jun 1, 2007
3,550
Macgregor 26S Hobie TI Ridgway Colorado
Are you a member of the NDSA (National Deck Sweepers Association). Do you vote?
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
I didnt go back and look at where the irresponsible term first started.. but I might have. You might be real smart, real aware etc but if you make the choice to put something in front of you that significantly blocks your view of where you are going, you increase the percent chance of having some sort of accident. I personally think its fine to put yourself in any level of safety risk.. thankfully we can still do that. But... when you make a choice (because you sail a little faster) that increases the chances of causing harm to some one else.. that might be called irresponsible..

Sailing was compared to walking earlier so lets do that again. Walking speed is maybe 3.5 knots, sailing speed can be twice that. Even a smaller trailer sailor might have 70 to 100 times the Kinetic energy of a person walking. At 7 knots, a sailboat is covering 11.8 feet every second. Im somewhat also glad that you can still also make the choice to do this.. but dont see the logic saying this is completely reasonable.
You are of course entitled to make decisions on your boat about how you sail. Just like everything else in life. Choices. But just because you chose not to do something does NOT make it irresponsible for others to do so.
 
Nov 13, 2013
723
Catalina 34 Tacoma
Like those irresponsible people that use chart plotters, looking down instead of looking up can get you into trouble. Should be a law, no chart plotters or deck sweepers. Let's also include no inflatable dinghy on the foredeck. Give me a break!
 
Aug 1, 2011
3,972
Catalina 270 255 Wabamun. Welcome to the marina
The sail is an inanimate object. It cannot be blamed, any more than it could be used as a defense. The responsibility lies at the helm, and anybody who doesn't want the responsibility for piloting the vessel in a safe manner should maybe consider lawn tractor racing.
 
Mar 20, 2012
3,983
Cal 34-III, MacGregor 25 Salem, Oregon
I an curious what the general feeling is towards putting some sort of foresail on a sailboat that blocks your forward view?

And the other issue.. Last winter I had a sailboat nearly bump into me, when I looked up all I saw was a deck sweeping jib. Could not even see the people in the boat so they could also not see me.

but think blocking your forward view is a fairly unsafe practice, even irresponsible since you can put some other persons safety in jeopardy.

What do you think..
I think... in answer to most all the issues, here and elsewhere, one should be able to do what ever they want to do as long as they show the same courtesy and respect to others that they would like to receive themselves.....

in the scenerio you describe, the large oversized sail is NOT the root problem... the root problem is lack of attention. if it was a close call, maybe it could be said both parties were distracted too long from their primary task...
you obviously were aware enough at the right time to avoid the collision, but if you had not of seen the other boat in time, sailing with your skinny jib, and you both collided, what would this thread be about then?.. would we still be discussing deck sweepers as possibly being dangerous?

even if we properly take care of our own lack of attention, we still have the issue of the other person. and no matter how many laws/rules/penalties one wants to enact in an attempt to get us ALL to do as we should at every moment of our lives, the OTHER person will STILL cause us aggravation at times.... their is nothing that can be done about the OTHER guy, but there are 2 ways, we as individuals can deal with him.
1, go where he isnt..... and if he follows,
2, be aware that he's there and is probably going cause you an issue as soon as your attention is diverted....
 
  • Like
Likes: dziedzicmj
Oct 26, 2008
6,432
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
lawn tractor.png
The responsibility lies at the helm, and anybody who doesn't want the responsibility for piloting the vessel in a safe manner should maybe consider lawn tractor racing.
Are you kidding? How do these crazy people see anything around them with those huge helmets they wear?!?!
 
  • Like
Likes: Meriachee

walt

.
Jun 1, 2007
3,550
Macgregor 26S Hobie TI Ridgway Colorado
your skinny jib,
Ouch!!

I suppose we could agree on this .. the deck sweeper blind spot is much safer than someone passed out drunk with an auto pilot locked in.

deck_sweeper1.jpg