Does anyone have any experience with water in engine? My Yanmar 39 hp showed a few drope of water so I changed oil. I am replacing the exhaust riser and elbow. Has anyone seen this and how did you deal with it? The Yanmar dealer wants to pull the heat exchanger to inspect. Engine has around 850 hrs. Seems kind of drastic, if I change oil to flush several times after replacing the exhaust riser and elbow. Any thoughts? Thanks
Water in Engine
- Thread starter sandiegosailor99
- Start date
If it is just a few drops it could be from water condensation in the crankcase. Oil is made up of a large percentage of water and with the heating and cooling of the engine it produces condensation. Is the engine overheating or running hot that your dealer wants to check the heat exchanger? It would not hurt to flush it out if running hot. When water mixes with oil in the crankcase it creates a milky emulsion usually gray in color. Is that what you have or just a couple of drops on the oil surface when you pull the dipstick? A few drops could be normal, the milky stuff no. Make sure the crankcase vent is clear to help circulate the gases and moisture. Milky stuff denotes more than a few drops and would require to find the source and repair as it could damage the engine.
Maybe your Yanmar dealer is looking for a little business.
From what I gather so far, do an extra oil change as Benny has suggested and then monitor on a regular basis.
If you're willing to do a little extra investigation, leave your current oil sitting for a few days and then pump out using your vacuum pump (assuming this is what you use). Don't warm up the engine before pumping. Put the oil in a glass jar and check after a few days for water accumulation at the bottom of the oil. This may give you more information.
I had bunches of water in oil last winter and found my Dripless shaft seal was installed incorrectly.
But...
Here is a trick to tell the source of non-oil liquid.
Buy from a local swimming pool supply "Salt water test strips".
Get a small sample of fresh oil, anti-freeze if you have that type of cooling system , fresh water and sea water. Use the test strips to get the base reading and then mark which it which sample.
Next...
Sample your contaminated oil and test with a new strip. By that test you can find the source.
Sea Water pegs the strip reading.
Anti-freeze with water gives a slight reading.
Water... not much but more than oil alone.
Jim...
PS: I would find my source first, if any.
But...
Here is a trick to tell the source of non-oil liquid.
Buy from a local swimming pool supply "Salt water test strips".
Get a small sample of fresh oil, anti-freeze if you have that type of cooling system , fresh water and sea water. Use the test strips to get the base reading and then mark which it which sample.
Next...
Sample your contaminated oil and test with a new strip. By that test you can find the source.
Sea Water pegs the strip reading.
Anti-freeze with water gives a slight reading.
Water... not much but more than oil alone.
Jim...
PS: I would find my source first, if any.
I certainly like your idea of first identifying the type of water (salt or fresh) as to the possible source of the leak .................
BUT
I've just got to ask how the water from the dripless shaft (and I'm presuming prop) seal managed to put water into your crankcase. Not saying it didn't happen, just saying I'm all ears
? ? ? ? ?Maybe it uses the T fitting in the raw water line between the output of the heat exchanger and mixing elbow and a small bit of water is draining back into the cylinders when the engine shuts down and into the oil? Not enough to cause hydraulic lock?
Thanks for all the great replies / ideas. The local Yanmar dealer is on the job to try to determine the source of the water and whether it's fresh/salt, etc. It certainly needs the exhaust riser and elbow replaced. I'll report back when I hear from him.
A blown head gasket, or cracked block or head can put coolant into the oil. So of it turns out to be antifreeze that could be how it got there. If its fresh or salt water with no antifreeze in it, that's more of a mystery. (Assuming you have freshwater cooling. If not, it would be whatever water you're floating on.)
As was mentioned, engines that don't get used much or warmed up completely can accumulate water from condensation. I once had a car with a bad thermostat that did that. Nothing wrong with the engine, it just never got hot enough to boil out the water.
As was mentioned, engines that don't get used much or warmed up completely can accumulate water from condensation. I once had a car with a bad thermostat that did that. Nothing wrong with the engine, it just never got hot enough to boil out the water.
Ok, short version....
I bought this boat from Florida, when bottom inspected the zinc was gone and shaft/prop badly pitted. I decided since new shaft, cutlass, prop (on previous owner's tab) that i would add a new dripless seal. I hired at top notch mechanic in a good marina to install.
The Captain that delivered my boat said he had a hard time starting the engine unless a lot of fuel on throttle. So from day 1 the dripless seal was leaking backwards, when engine was NOT running.
Why?
The seal has a water purge, in order to always have water cooling between the seal rotor/stator plate. The mechanic found a unoccupied plug on the engine raw water line near the exhaust mixing tee. He ran the new seal purge line from that tap to the seal purge tap. Nice job!!!
NOT!!!:naughty:
The tap was below the boat water line without high point loop.:cussing:
Thus...
When the engine was down, water, albeit drip drip drip, filled the exhaust riser and flowed backwards thru the one open engine exhaust valve.
Luckily I ran the engine often enough to evaporate the sea water from the oil and salt residue filtered out in Oil filter before I discovered the "installation" problem.
I will repost my link on how I fixed the problem later in day and hopefully a final install picture, if anyone is interested, since this may be off topic.
Jim...
Ok, short version.... I bought this boat from Florida, when bottom inspected the zinc was gone and shaft/prop badly pitted. I decided since new shaft, cutlass, prop (on previous owner's tab) that i would add a new dripless seal. I hired at top notch mechanic in a good marina to install. The Captain that delivered my boat said he had a hard time starting the engine unless a lot of fuel on throttle. So from day 1 the dripless seal was leaking backwards, when engine was NOT running. Why? The seal has a water purge, in order to always have water cooling between the seal rotor/stator plate. The mechanic found a unoccupied plug on the engine raw water line near the exhaust mixing tee. He ran the new seal purge line from that tap to the seal purge tap. Nice job!!!
Wow. And I thought I ran into every idiot that shouldn't be working on a boat. PSS will tell you that you can put a stopper in that line once it's allowed all the air out of the shaft seal. That came up because in reverse you can shoot quite a bit of water through that hose. I routed it up above the water line, put a Vetus anti siphon and back to the bilge. I worried about being out in big seas and having it get air bound and forgetting to burp it.
PSS told me slightly different, but close to what you said. The never recommended a cork for the purge line on boats under 12 knots/hr speed maximum. The recommended what I put in my post.
Like you, I didn't like the open vent for high seas. I tied mine into the existing sea water high point/siphon break which puts the purge back into the exhaust riser with no possible siphon or flow when engine stops.
The reason it spurts in reverse is the PSS bellows, which gives way to prop thrusts , forward or reverse.
Reverse compresses the bellows.... Squirts...
Forward stretches the bellows..... Sucks.... Ooooops
That is why the "cork" doesn't work.
Even though it is low speed applications for a sailboat.
Uncledom, your solution works and well thought out.
Jim...
PS:I fixed mine from the idiot installer's mistake. Check out this post.
PSS shaft seal - what do I use for the vent hose?
http://forums.sbo.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=171034&highlight=jamesg161
Regarding my post about water in the engine, the mystery has been solved by the excellent Yanmar dealer, PacWest, in San Diego. When I purchased the boat, it was on the hard, and had been prepared for shipping. I asked the broker and surveyor to demonstrate the engine running. Their solution was to draw fresh water from a garden hose to the raw water intake to the engine, bypassing the standard sea water intake. We ran the engine for five minutes or so, then turned it off, but they did not turn off the garden hose immediately, but within seconds of turning off the engine.
Although all this seemed perfectly logical to me at the time, it turned out to be a very bad idea. According to the Yanmar dealer, when the engine was turned off, and stopped emitting water with the exhaust, there was no outgoing pressure to prevent the water from the hose from being drawn back into the engine. Fortunately, after four oil changes, the water is clear and all seems well. Thank God it was fresh water, and not sea water that might lead to corrosion.
The Yanmar dealer is still suggesting they pull the heat exchanger to be sure there was no corrosion damage to the engine. This will take several thousand dollars, and I'm prepared to spend it if I have to, but with a new exhaust elbow and riser, I'm not sure I should spend the money to have that exchanger pulled, especially since the water that went into the engine was fresh water, and is now totally cleared. Any advice? (Other than don't trust a broker to his devices)?
Although all this seemed perfectly logical to me at the time, it turned out to be a very bad idea. According to the Yanmar dealer, when the engine was turned off, and stopped emitting water with the exhaust, there was no outgoing pressure to prevent the water from the hose from being drawn back into the engine. Fortunately, after four oil changes, the water is clear and all seems well. Thank God it was fresh water, and not sea water that might lead to corrosion.
The Yanmar dealer is still suggesting they pull the heat exchanger to be sure there was no corrosion damage to the engine. This will take several thousand dollars, and I'm prepared to spend it if I have to, but with a new exhaust elbow and riser, I'm not sure I should spend the money to have that exchanger pulled, especially since the water that went into the engine was fresh water, and is now totally cleared. Any advice? (Other than don't trust a broker to his devices)?
I think it would be better to have them pressure test the heat exchanger. There are tools available that allow you to pressurize the heat exchanger via a special fill cap with gauge. Would tell you very quickly if it is leaking and needs to be repaired without pulling it. The tool is available for rent from auto parts stores..
The "hose water" would have gone into the heatex and then exhaust pipe. The pipe would have filled and back flowed through the exhaust and into the engine ... without doing bad things to the heatex, since there is nothing to stop flow and pressurize the system. Good luck.. I would be suspicious of someone wanting $1000 to pull and inspect the heat exchanger, a 1 hour job. (if there is access)
The "hose water" would have gone into the heatex and then exhaust pipe. The pipe would have filled and back flowed through the exhaust and into the engine ... without doing bad things to the heatex, since there is nothing to stop flow and pressurize the system. Good luck.. I would be suspicious of someone wanting $1000 to pull and inspect the heat exchanger, a 1 hour job. (if there is access)
Salt water does not cause corrosion any more than fresh water mixed with SO2 in exhaust. I had salt water in mine and luckily I ran the engine long enough to evaporate the water and the salt residue was filtered in my oil filter.
The easy way to check all parts is with a Laser temperature device that will tell you if the exchanger works after 15+ minutes of operation. I price my exchanger and it was $450 plus my labor. 50HP Volvo Penta.
Jim...
PS: You keep mechanics/brokers honest by knowledge.
I had a similar problem with my 1997 Hunter 430. I also have a 50 HP Volvo engine. I bought the boat 5 years ago. I was getting sea water in my engine oil every time I took the boat out. This started quite suddenly—the boat ran for 15 years without prior owners reporting the problem, and it had been all the way to Trinidad and back.
It was very hard to diagnose since sea water in the engine should have caused engine seizure. After a lot of experimentation, we found that the problem lay with the natural water level in the exhaust system. At rest, the water level in the exhaust piping was about 3 or 4 inches below the exhaust elbow. We determined, through deduction, that the water was entering on engine shut down, not on start up. As long as it was running, manifold pressure and engine exhaust kept the water at bay.
As soon as we shut down, a back pressure, coupled with inrush, caused a small slug of water to be sucked into the manifold, which would then filter down into the crank-case—ergo, water in the oil, no engine seizure.
We solved the problem by replacing the exhaust elbow with a home made elbow with a loop. Have had no further problems.
Why there was no prior complaints from previous owners, I have no idea.
It was very hard to diagnose since sea water in the engine should have caused engine seizure. After a lot of experimentation, we found that the problem lay with the natural water level in the exhaust system. At rest, the water level in the exhaust piping was about 3 or 4 inches below the exhaust elbow. We determined, through deduction, that the water was entering on engine shut down, not on start up. As long as it was running, manifold pressure and engine exhaust kept the water at bay.
As soon as we shut down, a back pressure, coupled with inrush, caused a small slug of water to be sucked into the manifold, which would then filter down into the crank-case—ergo, water in the oil, no engine seizure.
We solved the problem by replacing the exhaust elbow with a home made elbow with a loop. Have had no further problems.
Why there was no prior complaints from previous owners, I have no idea.
I checked that same thing (same year boat and hull number 183) and was not happy since there is no back flow flapper on the seal loop. In other words, moderately high seas and no engine on, would slosh it into at least one engine open valve.
I now start my engine to prevent the back flow in 2+ foot sea. There is not a lot of seal loop water and it is just a drip, it is still worrisome. I run my MD22L at least for 40+ minutes in neutral 3 times a month. That evaporates any water and salt is filtered in oil filter.
How did you increase the seal leg height?
Jim...
I now start my engine to prevent the back flow in 2+ foot sea. There is not a lot of seal loop water and it is just a drip, it is still worrisome. I run my MD22L at least for 40+ minutes in neutral 3 times a month. That evaporates any water and salt is filtered in oil filter.
How did you increase the seal leg height?
Jim...
I had a galvanized steel loop made to replace the exhaust elbow. I have a photo I can send but I don't know how to upload it. Any suggestions?
Tom
Tom
I use hydronic heating system vents, the one below made by Taco and called the Hy-Vent series.. They have proven 100% trouble free for over 12 years now. Never lets in a single drop of water and always keeps the air out of the PSS. I have also use a bike water bottle, as a capture point, but it eventually needs to be emptied they Hy-Vent never does and is fully automatic...
It is easy to upload pictures. Keep file size small.
http://forums.sailboatowners.com/in...os-effective-use-of-links.115136/#post-569485
Is Main Sail's well done explanation.
Jim...
http://forums.sailboatowners.com/in...os-effective-use-of-links.115136/#post-569485
Is Main Sail's well done explanation.
Jim...
