Thanks for the additional info, David. I'll withhold judgement at the moment; but, that weather report says a lot.
TSBB: wow! What a video!
TSBB: wow! What a video!
Dauphine Island Race
- Thread starter CaptDon01
- Start date
what i learned sailing there was that weather is not a funtime on mobile bay.
when tugs n tows are tied up..dont sail there was my instruction. i will follow that forever.
was gorgeous place but the weather... sailing that is as bad as seeking out furycames for prefrontals
r i p to those who lost lives and condolences to those families n friends.
the sailors were sailing..biig time, and ALL deserve a big freeking sails award for showing up.
Looking at the published weather forecast in a previous post, it was as of 11:30 AM on Sunday. I am quite sure the race started well before that, and the decision to go was likely made Saturday. I didn't look at that area's weather on Sailflow or forecasts, but had I been racing or cruising in that area, I would have been paying close attention for several days ahead. Still, a squall like came through is not absolute and I can see myself making a decision to make the 5 or 6 hour sail across the Bay - especially with a crew of experienced sailors and a fun event scheduled on the other side. Rain is something sailors live with. I don't think anybody would have sailed knowing that a squall of that magnitude was coming, but a forecast is just a guess. With a cool event on the other side and a mild morning, a lot of people would take the gamble. In this case it wasn't worth it, but how many times have we all left in similar conditions and it has worked out?
The problem was the weather, but a bigger problem for those that didn't make it, may have been not wearing pfd's. It is a lot harder to drown if you have an inflatable pfd on. You can see the storm coming on radar, cell phones and visually, but the gust front is usually well in front of the rain and hard to see until it is on you. Anyone sailing or racing and not wearing a pfd, should at least put one on if you see a storm front approaching. I know many people who don't wear one, including me at times, but Mobile Bay is a very large area and shallow. I imagine the waves built up very fast in the 60 to 70 knot winds they experienced. Once they do build, you are manhandling the boat and don't have time to go get your pfd - just at the time when you need it most.
I have sailed a few times in Mobile Bay passing to and from TN to FL and consider it an offshore area. On my boat, in waters like that - even on a clear day, the rule is anyone in the cockpit has an inflatable pfd/harness and is clipped in - no exceptions.
My heart goes out to the families and the organizers of this event.
The problem was the weather, but a bigger problem for those that didn't make it, may have been not wearing pfd's. It is a lot harder to drown if you have an inflatable pfd on. You can see the storm coming on radar, cell phones and visually, but the gust front is usually well in front of the rain and hard to see until it is on you. Anyone sailing or racing and not wearing a pfd, should at least put one on if you see a storm front approaching. I know many people who don't wear one, including me at times, but Mobile Bay is a very large area and shallow. I imagine the waves built up very fast in the 60 to 70 knot winds they experienced. Once they do build, you are manhandling the boat and don't have time to go get your pfd - just at the time when you need it most.
I have sailed a few times in Mobile Bay passing to and from TN to FL and consider it an offshore area. On my boat, in waters like that - even on a clear day, the rule is anyone in the cockpit has an inflatable pfd/harness and is clipped in - no exceptions.
My heart goes out to the families and the organizers of this event.
tethers of appropriate length woukd be a very excellent practice.
hypothermia happens even in warm water and pfds do mothing for that
True. But in conditions like that, anyone in the water with a PDF stands a very high chance of secondary drowning. Breathing hard with white water in your face can kill you. Its why all the VOR guys and gals use vests with integrated sprayhoods.
Sadly it probably more than you would ever expect to use on mobile bay. I'm sure I would not have had on my offshore Spinlock 5D on in that race, but my inshore Deckvest Lite. BTW the Deckvest Lite is the most comfortable PFD in the world. If you know anyone that says they would wear a PFD if it was comfortable, they need to try one on.
ISAF/USsailing RSS
50% of all sailboat races would not happen if the OC/RC tried to factor in all the bad things that COULD happen to any boat. Its why rule 4 has been around in the RRS forever. Every boat/person has to look at all the available data about conditions/etc, their crew/boat capabilities, and make they decision and contingencies.
Its very easy to sit in a chair miles away and make an after-the-fact call about what should have been done. There will be lessons learned, and changes made. But sailing can be dangerous, and they cannot (and SHOULD not) attempt to manage all that risk away.
The video was scary alright. If they hadn't been running with it, it would have been a lot worse. Guess I will add some flotation to my boat after seeing this. I am a "fair weather sailor" and watch weather closely but a storm that travels at 55+ mph can surprise you.
Sobering.
Sobering.
Sailing, and especially racing, in or near thunderstorms, particularly those associated with approaching fronts, is a dangerous activity to be sure. I suspect that many of us have done it, probably inadvertantly, having been caught out out in one. CHOOSING to do it with ample forewarning, however, is difficult to rationalize. When I first started racing in Tampa Bay we went out in TS-threatening weather b/c otherwise we'd be staying home a lot as there are so many, often times daily in late spring, summer, and early fall. However, after a couple of harrowing experiences I basically stopped doing that. I traded in my light racing boat for a heavier, larger, more seaworthy "racer-cruiser", and chose more judiciously the weather that I would participate in. Most of my "contact" after that while racing was signing on as crew with skippers who evidently had not yet learned that lesson. Now, I don't even do that!!
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Still 4 missing, 2 confirmed dead, 1 person reported missing was on land, and safe.
I sail in an '87 C-22, and have been in a similar predicament in the Pensacola Bay. Now I am thinking that the C-22 is not built for this area, and perhaps I should move up in size.
Any recommendations?
I sail in an '87 C-22, and have been in a similar predicament in the Pensacola Bay. Now I am thinking that the C-22 is not built for this area, and perhaps I should move up in size.
Any recommendations?
Thanks for the link. This video is in the process of going viral. Thinking footage from this video will be broadcast on all the Nat'l networks tonight. RIP to those lost.
Note this boat under sail at the 2:40 mark ... before the brunt of the front. I hope that crew is okay.
Attachments
A video from one of the boats showed:
- The boat had sails down. Wind was strong, boat level and under control.
- With wind to port, a crew member's with back to wind had life vest blown over head and off. Stiff wind, loose vest.
- A boat a few hundred yards ahead had full main up was on rails, struggling. It may have capsized shortly afterwards.
I was surprised to see the full main, compared to the other with sails down.
- The boat had sails down. Wind was strong, boat level and under control.
- With wind to port, a crew member's with back to wind had life vest blown over head and off. Stiff wind, loose vest.
- A boat a few hundred yards ahead had full main up was on rails, struggling. It may have capsized shortly afterwards.
I was surprised to see the full main, compared to the other with sails down.
My heart goes out to the families of the lost and injured sailors. I saw this on the news and have watched for updates. Very scary indeed.
PPConger maybe start a new thread. I have a few suggestions but don't want to hijack this thread.
SC
PPConger maybe start a new thread. I have a few suggestions but don't want to hijack this thread.
SC
I bought my catalina 27 in 2013 while it was in a slip at fly creek marina in the same harbor that the FYC is located. I spent several months in mobile bay along the route of this regatta. Several days while there were small craft warnings. I was lucky on several of those trips. Ended up shreading the old main and genoa finally. I was new to sailing although i had spent the last 35 years on boats as a hydrographic surveyor i had only sailed in my reading chair. Those first experiences on mobile bay made me realize that although i have been on the water my whole adult and teenage life, that there was another side of this new venture on the water that i did not understand well enough to go where i knew i was going to ultimately go. I have since completed the ASA 101, 103, 104, 105 and 106 courses. I had a fine instructor and on the completion of the 6 day cruise that was the 106 course we encountered just such conditions. We monitored the boat radar and both of our phone apps and at 2200 hrs we decided to turn about and head 5miles south and anchor out in a protected cove on the lee of horn island. I must also add that although we sailed in mixed rain and wind conditions that were building ahead of the front between us and our destination that we had our rain gear and life jackets on. We reduced the main and genoa off and on as conditions changed when dark came and the weather was increasing we took in all the sails and fires up the engine. I guess the mindset of regatta participants is more relaxed as i have never sailed in one. Is is unfortunate that in one of he videos they are sailing with full sails when they should have been deeply reefed at least while in another video the sails were completely stowed. It is tragic that hindsight is always 20/20. As i write this post a squall line is passing thru as i watch from my soft chair thru the window and go thru what my preparations would be if i were on the water today. Training, common sense, preparation, vigilance and a little luck sometimes is still not enough when in harms way but we all must not let this tragedy and loss of our fellow sailors be in vain.
Thanks for the post. Reminds us that crazy squalls can blow up out of no where. Always be prepared to drop the sails quickly. This should be a practiced event with your crew.
On the racing crews I was a member of when I was younger, we practiced dropping and hoisting sails for speed. If you do it over and over again, you can get really quick at it. We practiced on our motoring trips back to the dock.
So, I was watching the video that was posted above, the captain seemed to say stay with the wind? is that the best course of action when a storm in heading our way? I was thinking shouldn't you head into the storm, seems like that would be better? but I am a young guy and never really sailed in adverse conditions... be interesting to hear from my favorite crazy guy... CDC?
the huge boxy seas in shallows and during prefrontal winds to tboomers suck bad. they are huge boxy things that want to kill you. and i was in a 37 ft sloop
not good racing weather for smaller boats when these are predicted.
we turned back.
i cannot imagine wanting to sail when these are predicted. nasty stuff.
not good racing weather for smaller boats when these are predicted.
we turned back.
i cannot imagine wanting to sail when these are predicted. nasty stuff.
As a Midwest sailor storm avoidance is a fact of life. When a forecast calls for isolated storms and it's clear and nice in the morning we've gone sailing...with an eye on the weather of course. It's hard to second-guess the decision to sail.
I remember reading in "Storm Tactics" that it's never the wind that causes problems, it's the water that will kill you...but the million dollar question is how many boats that were knocked-down still had their sails up? There was a boat in the Youtube video in the distance that still had their full main up and looked to be in some distress. The waves were probably pretty steep and choppy but I would figure all the knockdowns were from sails being left up. I feel real bad for everybody because, unlike in a hurricane or tropical storm, a supercell thunderstorm can have real shifty winds and big downdrafts. First thing I think is to throw the hook and heave-to but it'd be a real challenge to count on a storm sail to keep the boat pointed in the right direction in those circumstances. I'd almost rather face a tropical storm! The only good thing about a sudden storm is that it is over pretty quick and doesn't go on for days and days.
Hearts out to those who were killed and injured!
I remember reading in "Storm Tactics" that it's never the wind that causes problems, it's the water that will kill you...but the million dollar question is how many boats that were knocked-down still had their sails up? There was a boat in the Youtube video in the distance that still had their full main up and looked to be in some distress. The waves were probably pretty steep and choppy but I would figure all the knockdowns were from sails being left up. I feel real bad for everybody because, unlike in a hurricane or tropical storm, a supercell thunderstorm can have real shifty winds and big downdrafts. First thing I think is to throw the hook and heave-to but it'd be a real challenge to count on a storm sail to keep the boat pointed in the right direction in those circumstances. I'd almost rather face a tropical storm! The only good thing about a sudden storm is that it is over pretty quick and doesn't go on for days and days.
Hearts out to those who were killed and injured!