Tiller vs. wheel steering on 34-40 ft boats

KristinKaye · Jan 10, 2014

Well, I think there's two sides to that. Hydraulic autopilots can be noisy, ram seals leak, they consume a lot of power, control heads go bad. Our Legend 37 is being fit with a Wind Pilot. It used to be that all offshore cruisers had them. In today's electronic gizmo driven world they have fallen out of favor. But two years ago we sailed with some friends on their Hallberg Rassy 34 with one on it. After two days on that boat I was totally sold on it. The thing is silent, doesn't consume any power, and unlike an autopilot the harder it blows the better it works.

The Wind Pilot isn't a lot cheaper than an electronic autopilot. But it's reliable. We'll fit with an electronic tiller pilot too for redundancy (a LOT cheaper than a wheel autopilot). But for what I can sell the pedestal, wheel, cable quadrant, autopilot etc for, the refit to what I feel is a more reliable, easier to maintain and simple system won't cost us hardly anything.

zeehag · Jan 10, 2014

my electric assist hydraulic autopilot uses negligible power. is maaahhhvaalusss equipment , designed well and works under all conditions except becalmed. none work then . i use it sailing at night and do no thave to worry about electricity consumption, as it is less than 3 amps for the entire night. thankyou. btdt. no problem. my nav lights use more....rodl
my favorite time while using my otto was in the 60 plus kt chubasco we were hit by south of cedros island and north of cabo san lucas when our boat speed hit 8.4 kts and otto von pilote was happy as a pig in mud...steering us straight and on course. no muss no fuss no bother. perfect.
and didnt ***** about the conditions and fighting weather helm. we were laughing so hard....formosa hitting 8.4 kts b oat speed...unfreeking believable..no one would believe that!!!!!
electric assist hydraulic autopilots ROCK. there is nothing as good as an electric assist hydraulic autopilot. they better, as , int¡stalled, the model i have is 15000usd. yes fifteen thousand.l that, amigos, is why folks diss them, not because they suck or do what has been described...
the garbage for heavy boats wheel mounted steering units that do not work in high winds and seas are a joke.
i will not use a wind vane steering as it is unnecessary on my boat. my ketch does perfect with what i have. i have found no wind steering unit i like. each one has problems that i do not feel like enduring.
i also know i have a better self steering unit on my boat.

btw..if has leak..olive oil works fine, per another formosa 41 sailorette.
....

otto is best crew i ever knew.

KristinKaye · Jan 10, 2014

zeehag said:
the garbage for heavy boats wheel mounted steering units that do not work in high winds and seas are a joke.

You evidently haven't had a hydraulic pump go bad yet. Wait until that little high pressure quad ring on the pump input shaft wears a groove in the shaft, it blows past the dust seal and fills the motor up with oil and wipes it out. Oh yeah - they sell 'em every day. And basically those little open center pumps they use for boat steering systems are a joke from the word "go".

No machine mankind has ever built is immune to breaking. The simpler it is, the easier it is to fix and maintain. That's my 2 cents on it, forged from 30 years working on and operating heavy equipment with most everything on that equipment operated by hydraulic power. All it takes is a blown hose to completely disable a $1 million machine.

KristinKaye · Jan 12, 2014

centerline said:
The first paragraph sounds more like bashing than a fair discussion....

Sorry if it sounded like bashing.

To each his own. And that includes me who prefers a tiller with a Wind Vane. Call me more of a "purist" I guess. I go sailing to get away from "gizmos". If I wanted gizmos I'll just go back to a motor yacht with a couple big Cats in it.

zeehag · Jan 12, 2014

i learned to sail on a purists 1903 built 36 ft gaff rigged clifton crane designed registered (natonal historic treasure) racing sloop. cannot get much more purist than that.
i choose my poison, you choose thine.
i have only been sailing 60 years, so gimme a break,i am still new at this...rodlmffao....
it will take a lot more bashing of me before i fall for bs like that in my life, i have friends with same auto i have...keep olive oil on have no problem. i have had hydraulic crap go south in my cars...rodl..... that will not keep me from maintaining my auto and keeping my course true when needed.
go forth and become tired ,nay exhausted at the helm. may the gods save your soul.

btw..i have seen wind vanes FAIL...lol need i say more.,.....

btw...where is your desk you are currently sailing......

KristinKaye · Jan 12, 2014

zeehag said:
btw...where is your desk you are currently sailing......

That was uncalled for. I have better things to do than listen to personal insults.

There is a difference between presenting the realistic point of view on hydraulic steering systems and required maintenance issues in sailboats, and making statements like the above.

zeehag · Jan 12, 2014

KristinKaye said:
That was uncalled for. I have better things to do than listen to personal insults.

There is a difference between presenting the realistic point of view on hydraulic steering systems and required maintenance issues in sailboats, and making statements like the above.

like slamming me was called for and polite, i am to believe.
not being a new turnip, i choose not to be abused. be have.

topcat0399 · Jan 12, 2014

wow; the borders getting kind of heated for a thread that boils down to boxers or briefs....

KristinKaye · Jan 12, 2014

zeehag said:
like slamming me was called for and polite, i am to believe.

Nobody was getting slammed. Please read it again. I was stating a fact that I strongly dislike the design of those systems. They are NOT maintenance or trouble free. I got 3 or 4 pumps laying around the shop here that I've taken apart to see if they could be saved.

Evidently way too sensitive of an issue. I got boats to work on here. See ya'.

KristinKaye · Jan 12, 2014

centerline said:
sometimes we can get a bit too passionate about our views and get caught up in saying something that just comes out wrong without any intention of it coming across like that... I have done it myself.. we learn...

Folks, I apologize if I came across wrong. What I don't like seeing is somebody claiming electric over hydraulic steering systems are the cat's meow. They're great when they work. They're expensive (and messy) to fix when they break.

I've seen blown ram seals, crimps that give up on lines, pumps that fail, control heads that have be constantly reset after 9 firmware updates and then get replaced. Some of them I've worked on. Some, people have brought the pieces to me to see if I could fix it because they got sticker shock when they found out what a new component costs. Been working on and refitting people's boats as a sideline in the off season for 25 years. I've seen the good and the bad.

I just recently joined here because we bought a Legend 37 that I'm refitting for blue water cruising for my wife and I. But with all due respect I am far from a newb when it comes to boats of all types - both motor yachts and sailing yachts. Used to own a 58' diesel motor yacht back when a person could afford to pump 900 gallons of fuel in one.

Like I said before, to each his own. But I will never slam anybody personally here. It is not my modus operandi. I have very strong opinions about things where I think people are misinformed or wrong. But that is different than personally attacking somebody.

Stu Jackson · Jan 12, 2014

kk, reasonable response. And welcome here. What you may not be aware of is the looong history zeehag has with this and other sailing forums. I was among many who contributed financially, albeit in a small way, to her cruising kitty back when she was planning to leave San Diego over three years ago. She has some definite opinions gained from, like you, years of hands-on experience. She has also single- short-handed her Formosa 41 while being physically challenged in a big way. So, please, take it as it is intended, simply as input from another skipper who has been there - done that, in many cases far more than many of us have ever been. She's sailed from SD to mainland Mexico and is currently in the process of rebuilding her engine with only local, trusted help. She is actually a good role model.

As far as tiller-wheel. I've had both. Our C22 and C25 obviously came with them, and I enjoyed them. Our C34 came with a wheel, and I enjoy that too, although I am a committed "don't-be-a-slave-behind-the wheel" skipper.

http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5445.msg33671.html#msg33671

I sometimes sail our boat using the lower spoke(s) of the wheel, almost as if it was a tiller! :dance: With proper sail trim, my boat sails itself very well upwind, and many, many times I simply disengage the AP, and get the "tiller feel" that way. Don't know why more folks don't give that a try. Good sail trim avoids the "white knuckle steering syndrome."

I feel, without specific examples however, that most bigger boats have two things that may, just may, preclude the perceived advantages of a tiller: (1) higher comparative coachroofs to make it harder to see over when seated; and (2) dodgers usually found on larger boats which impinge on clear vision when seated simply because the bottom strip of canvas essentially raises the top of the coachroof even higher.

This is not to say that bigger boats aren't successful with tillers, many are.

This recurring topic of which is "better" is, IMHO, a red herring - useless, counterproductive, meaningless, pointless, futile and one with no right answer.

Just me...

KristinKaye · Jan 12, 2014

Stu Jackson said:
So, please, take it as it is intended, simply as input from another skipper who has been there - done that, in many cases far more than many of us have ever been

Absolutely. Just that if it was me and I depended on an electric over hydraulic system to be able to single hand the boat I would carry spare parts for it and make sure you know how to replace them and bleed the system. At the minimum I would have a spare ram and pump onboard - they are the two most common failures that will completely disable the system.

On our Legend 37 I am fitting with redundant autopilots - a Wind Vane primary and standard linear actuator type as backup. Not that my wife I and couldn't get the boat into someplace to get it fixed on a passage if it went bad. Just when you are short-crewed or single handing it can be very long nights at the tiller if you only have one system and it decides to go on vacation.

My wife and I only have limited experience with blue water cruising. Just a passage from San Andres to Tobago and Rio De Janeiro with some friends on their Hallberg-Rassy two winters ago. After two days on that boat I became very impressed with the Wind Vane. Adjusting them so they work right is more an art than a science. And since they have fallen out of favor in today's electronic world few sailors know how to tune one anymore. But for me, and having experience with it, I like that system. It so elegantly simple and close to dead reliable that it's no wonder any cruiser of years past used to have one. The only thing that has displaced it in modern sailing is GPS coupled electronics and people's affection for electronic "gizmos".

Stu Jackson · Jan 12, 2014

Backups

Agree. The options for wind vane steering systems are represented very well by Scanmar right here in the SF Bay Area.

Many who know me call my middle name "Backup" and spares and knowledge of repair are essential, not only for long distance cruising, but for local sailing as well.

For example, many skippers have "hidden" fuseholders between their start buttons or keys and their starter solenoids. These $1.83 "gems" often give up the ghost, and many skippers seem to first replace their start buttons or keys instead. A constantly recurring theme...

Knowing this, and having the right materials and tools to repair/replace them WHEN not if they disintegrate, is critical. When it happened to me, we had been at anchor in the middle of nowhere. Took less than 30 minutes to fix, and I relocated it from below the alternator to a much more accessible place, and labeled it clearly.

Chris Patterson · Jan 12, 2014

Hmm. Why not have both AP & vane.

Stu Jackson · Jan 12, 2014

Many have. Some report using the vane with wind, and the AP with none. Others use the vane only in open ocean and sail bays and inland with the AP. Some use the vanes with trim tabs from a tiller pilot. All sorts of variations. Chris probably knows this, but just for some who may not...

KristinKaye · Jan 12, 2014

Chris Patterson said:
Hmm. Why not have both AP & vane.

That's what most people do. They'll have the windvane for primary and a standard autopilot for backup. Some use a tiller pilot in conjunction with the windvane and the windvane takes almost all the load off the tiller pilot.

Stu, you mentioned Scanmar? That's who I bought our windvane from. It's called a Monitor and it uses a servo rudder to steer the boat's rudder. It's the one that was on the Hallberg Rassy that we sailed on. They work with wheel steering too.

Every once in awhile you see a boat with one on it, and I think the Monitor is almost the gold standard in windvanes that everybody else tries to copy. The nice thing about it is that there is nothing on it that can't be repaired onboard.

For coastal sailing where the wind might not be steady or coming from the same direction all the time they're not that great. In those conditions the electric drive pilot works better. And of course if you have no wind and are motoring you'll be using the electric drive pilot. 10-12kts or so and the windvane starts to work pretty good. The harder it blows the better it works.

cookwithgas · Jan 12, 2014

I installed a wheel on my tiller boat for occasions when I have e crew and need more room in the cockpit. I install the tiller when I'm by myself and the wheel when I have company.

Sandy Stone · Jan 13, 2014

Now that's different - I like it! Say, haven't I seen you out on a couple of Wednesday nighters?

Tiller vs. wheel steering on 34-40 ft boats

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