Universal M18 in a Catalina 30 underpowered

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John rolka

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Dec 6, 2010
50
Catalina 30 City Island
This is my first season with a Catalina 30 with a Universal M18. I initially was looking for a M20 with the 3 cylinder engine but settled on a nice boat with the M18 2 cyl. When I bought the boat I did a sea trial the engine worked fine, now using the boat I'm finding it concerningly under powered when dealing with wind, into a 15-20 kt head wind I'm only making 2+kts at full power. A friend who had this engine in a Ranger 30 seems to think I shouldn't be this under-powered. I'm not exactly sure of the prop I have but its 2 bladed. I'm wondering if this is the best I can expect.

Thanks,
John Rolka
 
Lost Parent

Lost Parent

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Jul 8, 2011
704
Catalina 30 Sidney B.C.
I have a Sole 17 diesel in my 30 and it is what it is underpowered , just alow extra time
 
Alan Gomes

Alan Gomes

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Nov 22, 2011
1,265
Ericson 26-2 San Pedro, CA
John rolka said:
This is my first season with a Catalina 30 with a Universal M18. I initially was looking for a M20 with the 3 cylinder engine but settled on a nice boat with the M18 2 cyl. When I bought the boat I did a sea trial the engine worked fine, now using the boat I'm finding it concerningly under powered when dealing with wind, into a 15-20 kt head wind I'm only making 2+kts at full power. A friend who had this engine in a Ranger 30 seems to think I shouldn't be this under-powered. I'm not exactly sure of the prop I have but its 2 bladed. I'm wondering if this is the best I can expect.

Thanks,
John Rolka
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John,

You should post your question on the Catalina 30 Yahoo list, which is a great resource for such questions. I know there is a guy on the list named Dan Metzler who has an M-18 in his Catalina 30. He could tell you exactly what kind of performance the engine gives him in different conditions and what prop he has. He's very meticulous about such stuff.

The M-18 is a great engine (had one in a 27 footer) but it is a bit underpowered for the C30. Just off the top of my head, though, it seems as though you should be doing a little better than what you are describing. Certainly having the correct prop can make a massive difference depending on how off you are, and assuming that the engine is putting out close to its rated horsepower.
 
C

Calif. Ted

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Jun 8, 2004
2,968
Catalina 320 Dana Point
When I bought the boat I did a sea trial the engine worked fine, now using the boat I'm finding it concerningly under powered when dealing with wind, into a 15-20 kt head wind I'm only making 2+kts at full power.
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Is the bottom clean like at the sea trial ?
 
Bob S

Bob S

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Sep 27, 2007
1,805
Beneteau 393 New Bedford, MA
There has been a lot written on this subject here and on the C30 yahoo group. I agree with Alan, you should definitely frequent the Yahoo group.

Personally, I think you're doing pretty good getting 2 knots into 20 knot winds. I'm sure if you're heading into that kind of wind there are some good size waves breaking over your bow. I have an M25xp @ 23 hp and when in those conditions I raise my head sail and tack. I'll get hull speed and it's an easier ride. All of these little diesels are pretty reliable and yes it is underpowered in those circumstances.
 
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Bob4203

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Jul 1, 2004
398
Catalina 30 Atlanta GA
My 1988 Mark II came with the M-18. Catalina transiitioned from the Universal-11 to the M-18 durng a short run when the Mark II was introduced. I do not have the hull numbers but it was not a lot of 30's that came out of the factory with the M-18. The M-25 was an option then and quickly became standard issue. My friends older Catalina 30 (1982?) came with the Universal 11 and it was noticeably slower. By no means do they have the performance of the M-25.

My wife and I have considered taking the 30 over to the Georgia coast for an extended ICW cruise, so the M-18 brings up some concerns. Can I maintain headway going against 6 - 8 foot tidal fluctuations in the Carolina's and Georgia? I believe that a three bladed prop will provide that bit of extra torque to get me through when needed? But like aforementiioned can I take on 25+ headwinds and make headway? Probably, but with lots of patience.

The M-18 is a great engine. Its the Kubota 600 block which is a very reliable small block tractor engine. I have had no issues thus far. I can cruise at hull speed at 1900 rpm on Lake Lanier, GA but I have no currents or tides to contend with here. With the cost of replacement I have no desire to re-power if we do the coastal trip. I have done the ICW many years ago and with so many no-wake zones, narrow passages and even slower vessels, my only concerns would be getting through the heavy tidal areas.

Bob
 
Stu Jackson

Stu Jackson

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Feb 26, 2004
23,101
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
Bob S said:
I have an M25xp @ 23 hp and when in those conditions I raise my head sail and tack. I'll get hull speed and it's an easier ride.
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This is a very, very important observation from Bob. For the life of me, after all these years, I can never understand why skippers "slog" their way uphill against wind & waves, pounding, pounding, pounding (unless, of course, they are restrained by a channel, like some marinas here with looong entrances or coming back from the California Delta through Suisun Bay; some folks do it the length of San Pablo Bay, where there is a lot of room and Bob's advice would be a much better way of handling things). The sailboat's inherent hull design makes going into the wind at an angle you'd normally be doing a tack upwind much, much more comfortable, even if you don't use any sail at all.
 
dlewis812

dlewis812

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May 21, 2006
321
catalina 25, 30 montauk / manhattan
john, not so much the wind but sailing primarily in the hudson i'm mostly dealing with the current. try to plan but at times need to go against and can be slow going with the M18. however i do believe i can still do better than the 2kts you've mentioned. will be out tonight though and will check it out.
 
O

Old Skool Neil

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Jan 22, 2008
880
Fed up w/ personal attacks I'm done with SBO
Bob S said:
. . . . . when in those conditions I raise my head sail and tack. I'll get hull speed and it's an easier ride.
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My thoughts exactly. Why are you choosing to motor in such conditions?
 
B

Bob4203

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Jul 1, 2004
398
Catalina 30 Atlanta GA
On the other side of this discussion is that sometimes you have to go bare poles and the horsepower at that time is what counts. Twice in my many years of sailing I had to power into the wind with sails down and I appreciated the fact I had plenty of horsepower to do it. Crossing Lake Okeechobee with 45+ headwinds required I abandon my reefing and motor into it. With a Perkins 4-108 powering my Coronado 35, it provided plenty of headway for the hours of horrible conditions we had to endure. Its a sloshing mess.

The same held true when we chartered a Morgan 41 OI and on the return trip from West End to Florida we headed into the remands of Hurricane Bob. Again, bare poles, 55+ headwinds with heavier gusts and we just barely, barely kept our nose into the wind.

So could my M-18 do the same for me on my lightweight Catalina 30? Probably not.....................best to purchase a sea anchor or drogue because thats what I would have to do in open water conditions. Put my butt into it and drag it out.

Power is everything:D

Bob'88 Mark II
 
dlewis812

dlewis812

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May 21, 2006
321
catalina 25, 30 montauk / manhattan
against current

had no choice but to motor against the current in hudson last night. slooow going. would be nice to have the extra HP (i have M18). nothing dangerous just takes a bit longer.
 
Nahart51

Nahart51

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Nov 18, 2012
183
Catalina 77 - 22 / 75 - 30 Lake Arthur, LA
See my post in "new prop"

The answer to all of your motor concerns.
 
B

Bob4203

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Jul 1, 2004
398
Catalina 30 Atlanta GA
................if my Catalina came with the Atomic 4 I would have no issues keeping it as they are as reliable as a British Seagull outboard! All the sailboats back in the late 60's and well into the 70's came with an Atomic 4............very dependable engine despite the fuel type.

But, given the cost of engine replacement these days its not happening! Looks like the three cylinder diesel are the standard issue for the 30 footer.

Bob
 
Bob S

Bob S

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Sep 27, 2007
1,805
Beneteau 393 New Bedford, MA
You have to join, go to Yahoo, click on groups and search for Catalina 30.
 
FastOlson

FastOlson

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Apr 8, 2010
2,151
Ericson Yachts Olson 34 28400 Portland OR
John rolka said:
This is my first season with a Catalina 30 with a Universal M18. I initially was looking for a M20 with the 3 cylinder engine but settled on a nice boat with the M18 2 cyl. When I bought the boat I did a sea trial the engine worked fine, now using the boat I'm finding it concerningly under powered when dealing with wind, into a 15-20 kt head wind I'm only making 2+kts at full power. A friend who had this engine in a Ranger 30 seems to think I shouldn't be this under-powered. I'm not exactly sure of the prop I have but its 2 bladed. I'm wondering if this is the best I can expect.

Thanks,
John Rolka
Click to expand
You have received a LOT of great advice already and much of it is model-specific. One little part of the problem I have some personal experience with is the prop.
Over almost two decades with the same boat we have used a fixed two blade, feathering two blade, and for the last couple years a fixed three blade.
After all corrections have been made in the pitch to get our M25XP to motor for extended periods in its proper rpm range (2500), we do get the most (By Far!) sustained speed in a chop out of the three blade fixed. Where we used to get smacked back by a two foot chop in some long motor-only narrow stretches to about 5 kts, we can routinely motor at near-7 with this prop. 7.2 to 7.5 continuously in flat water.

So, the prop Does make a big difference.
Tradeoffs? Ohhhhh yeah.... about a knot under sail -- like dragging a small bucket, as some wag once said.

Our boating Future: saving up for a three blade feathering prop. :)

Just remember that every thing's a compromise, and that all answers carry within them... a new question...
:doh:

Fair winds,
Loren

ps: avoid assumptions about hp available from a used engine. If the injectors have not been serviced in living memory, do get it done. Same for checking for carbon build up in the exhaust parts. Be SURE that you are getting all the horsepower that should be there!
 
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jrowan

jrowan

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Mar 5, 2011
1,294
O'Day 35 Severn River, Mobjack Bay, Va.
ps. Try motoring with a 5411 only 11 HP! I wouldn't mind having your extra 7 HP.
Remember that it can be worse. But I always remind myself that we bought a sailboat after all, not a power boat. We mostly just use our engine getting in & out of the marina as Catalina designed them for. A lot of guys want to be able to motor at hull speed in all conditions, which is just not realistic for a sailboat. We live with our extremely reliable 5411 because its the engine that just won't die, & has never let me down. We also live with the ridiculously tiny 2 blade prop, because it offers the least resistance under sail, which is what counts for me. Maybe one day I'll shell out the bucks for a feathering of folding 3 blade prop, but U also have to worry about over propping your boat & causing excessive engine & trans wear. Keep your bottom clean & live with what you've got, & you'll learn to appreciate how reliable & economical our 2 cylinder Kobuta diesels really are.
 
B

Bruce Adams

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Nov 28, 2008
35
Catalina 30 Northport, NY
What is th e ball park price for the M-20, marina installed into a 1982 C-30 if I pull the cabinet myself?
I think my 5411 has finally died, and that its not worth getting it fixed this winter.

Thanks
 
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