Sailing a MacGregor 25

okawbow · Oct 9, 2008

Re: I would take your bristol on anyday okabow!

You absolutely should be able to take my Bristol in a scratch race, Bio. You have a 60 second per mile advantage according to the PHRF numbers. My waterline length is only 18'2", against about 23" for a M26S. You also have about a 10 second advantage on the M25. That's why it seems strange that; in a 12 mile race, instead of coming in 12 minutes ahead, they come in well behind. I'm not that good a sailor, so I can only assume it's the boat.

biorapper · Oct 9, 2008

your post makes no sense okabow!

"You have a 60 second per mile advantage according to the PHRF numbers. My waterline length is only 18'2", against about 23" for a M26S. You also have about a 10 second advantage on the M25. That's why it seems strange that; in a 12 mile race, instead of coming in 12 minutes ahead, they come in well behind. I'm not that good a sailor, so I can only assume it's the boat."

You admit in your post above that the 26s is a faster boat according to phrf and boat length (with your bristol); yet you then jump to the illogical assumption that it is the boat!?! Do you think the "laws" of boat length physics, and the phrf system are unappliable to the 26s?

According to your own words it IS the SAILOR not the boat. So my question: why do you allow a limited experience with what must be bad helmsmenship bias your incorrect statement that the 26s boat is the reason these sailors you race with don't beat you? You said it yourself "I should beat you". And I am very confident that I would! Confident enough that I would meet you halfway and bet the gas money that my 26s, with me at the tiller, would get there ahead of you on your bristol.

Many people who sail magregors are first time owners with much still to learn...
Anyone THAT HAS SAILED ONE and knows about sail trim, feathering if applicable, bearing off a bit on the down wind leg for boatspeed verses trying to go very close to dead downwind, etc., etc.; knows they are a very capable and fast boat for their coastal/lake niche.

I am truly baffled at your lack of logic!

okawbow · Oct 9, 2008

Re: your post makes no sense okabow!

Bio, you don't seem to understand my point. The Macgregor 26 is theoreticaly a faster boat than an M25 and especially a Bristol 24. My personal experience in racing low key club races, and general sailing against dozens of M26es has been that I and most other club members can pass the M26 with boats that have a higher handicap than the M26. You might be able to "clean our clocks" with your boat and experience, but the average sailor doesn't do so well it seems. To me that suggests that either the average M26 is poorly set up and tuned, or it is very difficult for the average sailor to get the best from it. There are about 500 sailboats on our lake, and the M26 is one of if not the most popular boat on the lake. I can count on seeing at least 1 or 2 every time I sail. The big, water ballast models with dual rudders seem especially slow in some conditions. Most of these seem to have large outboards that are allways down. I've also noticed the high sides of some of the M26 make it difficult for them to go windward in strong winds. They seem to do a good job in some winds and points of sail, but in the long run they lose out somehow. I don't think the PHRF numbers assigned to the M26 on our lake are fair to them.

Our club members that have M26es love their boats. They also use them more often than most members use their boats. But, none of the have any ideas about winning races with them.

P.S. if you want to trailer your boat to Southern Illinois, your on!

biorapper · Oct 10, 2008

Okabow, this really is getting a bit ridiculous. I understand the point you claim. That the M26- as you designate them all- is in theory a faster boat; but in reality it is a slower boat. I am telling you that your reality with them (26s's!) is limited and atypical!

The 26s is not a faster boat than the 26M or 26X or your bristol IN THEORY...it IS a faster boat in measurable reality! The phrf's, from what little I know, though not perfect to individual boats with upgrades and whatnot, are a time tested way of evaluating a boats potential performance.

You continue to lump the 26s in with the dual rudder 26 motor/sail hybrid models. As a pure sailing boat owner this gets very old. When you write of the dual ruddered boats, you are not describing my boat!

Your point is based on some limited subjective experiences on your hometown lake with, it sounds like, mostly boats that are not my model of boat. Do you REALLY think all these different race clubs are in error with their phrf evaluation of the 26s? It may be that 26s owner(s) on your lake have their boats poorly tuned or have limited sailing experience.

HERE IS THE BOTTOM LINE! I am so tired of my boat getting lumped in with the hybrids and being evaluated by sailors that have never sailed on one. So I put my wager, in the public electronic arena, on the table again:

If you are so confident that my 26s cannot get to the finish line ahead of your boat why not meet and place a wager? Gas money sounds like an interesting one... I am very confident in my boats speed. I may even be able to heave to, make a drink, throw you a good natured toast, and then proceed to leave you in my wake. This may sound cocky, it is not my intention...simply a result of repeatedly being frustrated with those who judge my boat with ignorance and/or error, by equating it with the newer hybrid models (whose sailing characteristics I am ignorant of). I know that on my 26s, I pass "cabin" boats 26' and shorter ALL THE TIME!

If you really think you can beat me on your bristol...lets meet halfway western nc and Illinois. The loser pays the gas bill of the other to get there? Then we can anchor and enjoy the common ground we share as sailors. I actually have a free weekend right now...I was planning on trailoring to Beaford for a long weekend, but would throw some spontanaity in if you up for it! If we get together it should be in the next month.

Phil V25 · Oct 10, 2008

I know what you are talking about. Us Venture sailors are tired of hearing about all the 26c's rudder problems too!

okawbow · Oct 10, 2008

Bio, you seem to have something to prove. OK, I'll give in...The M25 AND M26S will sail rings around the other M26es because they are true sailboats. If you re-read my posts, I never said that my Bristol could beat your boat! I said that I have never been passed by any model M26, and I stand by that as in 3 years of sailing most weekends from April to November, that has never happened. I don't really put much stock in PHRF numbers to determine how fast an individual boat is. I've seen too many boats that were poorly set-up, and sailed. The other weekend, I passed a Benetau 33 and a Catalina 30 in 8-10 knot winds with my Bristol. Neither seemed happy about it either. There is No way my boat can sail faster than those boats unless something is seriously wrong with their sail trim, or bottom fouling, poor helmsmanship, or all of the above.

biorapper · Oct 10, 2008

sounds like your a good helmswoman okabow

that, and like you stated, boat tuning, prep, and logistical load, esp. taken together, are more important[to a degree] than the boat itself.

Sounds like we are both fortunate to really enjoy and like our boats, and when you get right down to it...thats the most important thing!

Fair, fun, & fast Winds!

Bio

Jenni · Oct 10, 2008

26D and 26S

The MacGreggor 26 boat is a very misleading clasification, and describes two wildly different styles of boat. Pre 1990 the Mac 26S and 26D were 3/4 cabin with a pop top sail boats. These boats are pure sailors and are fairly fast for their size/weight. They actually look very similar to your venture 25. The 26s has a centerboard like the 25, and then there is my own 26D with its dagger board. As for the motor on these they generly sport something in the 7-10hp in the off-center motor well. In the 90s Mac Greggor changed over too a new style boat the twin rudder motor/sailor of the 26X and 26M. The new Mac's feature a luxurious full cabin and helm steering. They are rated for up to a 50hp motor but quite frequently sport a 90hp monster on their stern nestled securely between the rudders in the middle of the boat. While I would imagine that these newer Mac's would be a superior cruising boat they just dont sail as well as the older 26's.

seatravellerhawaii · Oct 13, 2008

Re: 26D and 26S

To all the replys. I think the answer to the query is: a Mac 25 or Venture 25 is a easy boat to sail, trailer and maintain. Once you have raised the mast a few times it gets easier each time.
I do not sail my Venture 25 (1978) on a lake but in the open ocean off Hilo, Hawaii. I have changed many parts for the added stress encounted and still feel this is a outstanding boat for the money. I race often and I'm rarely beaten. I'll add that I do not race with my kicker (9 h.p. Honda 4) and I added a spinnaker for downwind as well as racing performance sails. I have had the boat long enough to understand its pecularities and adjust for them. I have sailed the boat in up to 35 knots and wind and seas running in the 12 ft range. I have always felt it was in control. Most important change was getting a Ida rudder. I'll probably buy the newest one too. I love theses boats and with enough practice you can really get this boat moving because in the end it is a planing hull and you can surf it with enough practice. Thats when the fun really begins!

John W. Vaughan · Oct 13, 2008

phdoc said:
I am looking to buy a 1986 25' MacGregor. How easy is it to trailer? How easy is it to step the mast? And lastly, how easy is it to sail alone?

A MacGregor 25 can be an easy trailer or a hard one, depending on whether your tow vehicle is powerful enough to pull it easily. I pull mine with a Chevy Suburban. No problems. Remember its a heavy tow and use a heavy vehicle to pull it. This is especially important when pulling up steep launch ramps with a fully load 25 attached.

Stepping the mast.....I've stepped it alone and it can be done with the right set-up, usually involving cabin top winches and baby stays...or a mast a raising system such as I've seen on this site. Generally, though, I think it's a two person job...We routinely raise our mast using only the jib halyard...My wife pulls the halyard and I start the mast up and guide it to keep it from going side to side. It also helps to have a good tall mast crutch on the stern to help you raise that mast especially the first few feet.

Singlehanding....No problem...Again you need to be set up for it in your cockpit, good idea to have your lines run back and also include a douser on your jib so you can pull that sail down from the cockpit if needed.

Thats about it...We've been sailing our 25 for about 20 ++ years with the Venture Sailing Club of Dallas...and a lot of what we've learned came from this fine organization and the hundreds of members we've sailed with over the years.

Sailing a MacGregor 25

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