Reasons for a survey

[vhoisington]

Ok, I've done the research, I'm looking at a 40 year old boat. She is well found but old. In doing the research, there are potentially lots of issues but at the same time nothing particular that is a major concern.

I know the engine is original, and has unknown hours, the tankage has been replaced but probably at least 10 years ago. The rigging is new, within 15 years, the hull needs bottom paint and the rest of the boat needs tending.

Price for the boat is reasonable and I need to add some items to bring her up to my standards. Having seen lots of old boats, understanding I'm not buying a new boat. Help me understand WHY a survey will help. It adds about $1500 to the total price which could be used for bottom painting instead. The boat currently is running some day charters so is in reasonable condition.

The engine runs well, generator works, hot water heater is functional. Sails and rigging don't have major concerns.

WHY bother with a survey????

 

[FastOlson]

This question has been well covered here in the past and @ SailNet. There are practical ownership reasons, like your insurer requiring a survey, and your marina requiring proof of insurance. This is SOP in most marinas these days in my part of the country.
Then there's the need for a real-world guide to the cost of ownership for your first few years. You are talking about a large vessel with multiple systems. A good survey will give you a forecast of what needs to be done immediately, what need to be done in the next couple years, and what must be updated further out.
As a great surveyor I know puts it: The buyer has a motivation based on infatuation with his/her new love, the broker and/or seller is putting on a best face to secure the most money possible, and that leaves only the Surveyor to "speak for the Boat"... !

When you follow that surveyor around this unfamiliar boat for a full day and ask and listen, and then read the report afterwards, you will get an education that is needed to safely use the boat.

Heck, just finding out that it's been in charter service would indicate to me that it's had more wear on systems than most owner-sailed boats get. (While it's true that a good rental company will be rigorous in changing oil, the other rigging and internal systems will usually only get maintained when they wear enough to actually fail.)

So, it's totally your call... but between common sense and pressure from your marina and or insurer, you will need (and find value in) a complete survey.

 

[David in Sandusky]

FastOlson covered most of the reasons. I would add that in most cases, including a survey in the purchase agreement will result in negotiations that could save the cost of the survey, or more.

By the way, $1,500 sounds high to me for a survey of a 28 footer.

 

[DougM]

If you plan to insure the boat, your insurance company will probably require at least an insurance survey. However, depending on the age oft the boat you may not even be able to get it insured.

 

[Don S/V ILLusion]

FastOlson covered most of the reasons. I would add that in most cases, including a survey in the purchase agreement will result in negotiations that could save the cost of the survey, or more.

By the way, $1,500 sounds high to me for a survey of a 28 footer.

And painting the bottom. That's about $750/hour.

 

[justsomeguy]

By the way, $1,500 sounds high to me for a survey of a 28 footer.

The OP never mentioned the length of the boat in question.

 

[SFS]

The OP never mentioned the length of the boat in question.

I think he assumed that the Hunter 28 in the profile was the boat in question. (Doesn't mean that's the boat.)

 

[justsomeguy]

I think he assumed that the Hunter 28 in the profile was the boat in question.

Ayup.

 

[Ken Cross]

I purchased 2 sailboats without a survey. I kept them both for years and sold them for more than my initial investment. Both required some work on my part. On one boat the insurance company wanted a survey to provide other than liability insurance.
On our present boat I paid for a survey. I found they didn't uncover anything I had missed except some missing second hose clamps and a sticky compass pivot. (I hadn't looked for the hose clamps because I relied on the survey.) It was a mistake not doing my own survey, but I assumed I needed it anyway for insurance. The insurance company (Boat US) turned out to not want the survey information. Including the extra haul out and hang for inspection, I think it cost me about $900 and I got little for my money. The things the surveyor missed were quite a few.

Bottom line I should have been more proactive on my own, but still came out with a pretty nice boat at a fair price.
I just hadn't expected to do quite as much work as I needed to do to bring her up to my standards. Bear in mind that in doing my own inspections is something close to what I did for a living for many years in the aviation world. If you choose to do your own, make sure you use a good thorough checklist and be methodical about it. list what you find in writing so you can look it over later and make informed stoic decisions.

Ken

 

[Calif. Ted]

It's your choice, a lot of marinas here are starting to require a recent survey for slip rental also.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Bear in mind that in doing my own inspections is something close to what I did for a living for many years in the aviation world. If you choose to do your own, make sure you use a good thorough checklist and be methodical about it.

Good points, Ken. Also, in some cases, smaller boats are easy, relatively, to larger boats with more systems, and unless you know what you're looking at...

OTOH, finding a good surveyor is half the battle and there are good ones out there, you just have to get into the local network of skippers.

Here's a handy checklist from this very forum that I've bookmarked and keep reposting when this issue comes up:

http://forums.sailboatowners.com/index.php?threads/boat-inspection-trip-tips.102541/

 

[Terry Cox]

Bear in mind that in doing my own inspections is something close to what I did for a living for many years in the aviation world.

Hi Ken, ditto here. As was mentioned in another post the buyer tends to look at their new boat through rose colored glasses. A good marine surveyor a more pragmatic view, but even there he looks mostly at a boat's structural integrity, which is what an insurance agent is mostly concerned with. In our case, after he had completed the hull and deck, I had to prod him to check the other stuff. Does the Genset run? How about the heat pumps, where are they and do they work? Ditto refrigeration and all the other stuff.

Our report had a list of about 12 items that were minor repairs that I did after the sale. The more major repair (replace three frozen seacocks) were done as a condition of the sale while the boat was on the hard for the survey. Overall the surveyor gave her a good report.

 

[FastOlson]

Thanks Much, Stu. That is a great link resource.

ps: have you relocated to Maple Bay? Beautiful place!

 

[Warren Milberg]

Insurance and marina requirements notwithstanding, the need for a survey would seem to be directly proportional to the skill and experience you have in owning and maintaining an aging sailboat. You create question marks about this by saying the rigging is "new, within 15 years." The older -- and bigger -- the boat, the more the challenge. Everything from the mast head down to internal wiring and hull integrity could be suspect. Everything wears out, the question is when and under what circumstances. The other question is who is better at determining the true condition of an inboard boat's many systems: you or a qualified surveyor? Also, after many years of sailing and owning and maintaining a number of boats, I've found that just finding a really qualified surveyor, one who has surveyed a number of the model boat you are considering, and willing to share the results of previous surveys of such boats, can also be a real challenge. If you are comfortable doing your own survey and living with the result, then you don't need a professional surveyor. But if you have questions about any of the many systems on board an aging boat, find a pro and walk through the survey with with him or her. It will be worth it.

 

[CarlN]

Mostly said. I find surveys are usually of very little use because as much is missed as is found. And a lot of the stuff that is found is trivial. But the surveyor will flag a few "run away" things - large areas of core rot in the deck, delamination in the hull, or structural damage. These are hard for the novice to spot and you don't want t buy a boat with them.

Call your insurance company to see if they need a survey - most likely yes. And be aware that the insurance company will require you to prove that you have fixed anything substantial that the surveyor puts in the written report. So it's always good to be there during the survey so the surveyor can tell you stuff without putting it all in the report.

Finally, the surveyor knows that you will be happy if he finds enough wrong to get the price reduced by the amount of the survey fee. The seller (or at last the seller's broker) is expecting this too. So the seller is really paying the survey fee.

 

[vhoisington]

To all,

Thanks very much. The boat I'm looking at is a 1976 islander Freeport (41') center cockpit. To answer some questions from posters, charter service was limited to day charter with captain and crew, so no "bareboat" stuff. I am very comfortable with doing my own work and have the tools and know how ( although still learning). I've read all of the pros/cons on this board regarding surveys and now must decide.

I don't mind paying for a survey, I just need to figure out what the value will be. Certainly spending a day crawling over her with someone who is knowledgeable would be good. Check 1 for doing a survey. However, I keep hearing about all of the things missed during a survey by, frankly, someone whom I've gotten a recommendation from someone else whom I barely know or (no offense to this great body) an Internet forum, strike 1 against a survey. As to requirements by insurance or marina, nothing has been mentioned yet but it may come up, we'll leave that as a TBD.

Haul out needs to happen, so bottom painting and zincs get done as a matter of course, I can map out and check all through hulls then. Things like the engine, generator and hot water heater are easy to access and are currently functional. No water in the bilge, we have a list of about 30 items we want to do but nothing serious to make her ours. Rigging, sails, are in good shape, dodger and Bimini are shot, no soft spots on deck, minor water intrusion around a few Windows to be addressed. Engine room has good access but needs some cleaning, engine while old, is in working order. Prop and shaft will get checked during haul out but appear to be fine.

We are not full time live a boards or long distance cruisers, mostly day sailing in SF bay for now.

She's not perfect, I expect to do some work, where are the big rocks that would cause me to pause?

 

[MitchM]

unless your insurance requires a hull survey, just sample the engine oil and send it away for analysis. if it comes back OK then pay a mechanic to do an engine survey. then enjoy your new boat. buyer of our last boat said insurer needed a survey, so they got one. it cost $1000. the surveyor found nothing. (that's what i told them he would find -- since i had offered them a complete maintenance and hours log AND list of every major upgrade and repair done for the past 20 years.

 

[Kings Gambit]

I frankly doubt that you can get insurance for a 45-yr-old boat w/o a survey; probably an out-of water-survey. So, if a survey is inevitable then make sure you don't pay for one for nothing (i.e., pre-purchase survey turns up a "deal-killer"); or worse, find out that the boat is not insurable after you've bought it due to some issue that you'll then have to reveal to the next buyer you might try to dump it on. Check out the boat thoroughly yourself to insure that it will likely "pass survey" on the purchase contingency. Then buy it, and enjoy w/ peace of mind. Boat ownership costs what it costs. Attempted "short cuts" may eventually increase the cost of ownership rather than reduce it.

 

[sdstef]

Seems to me you know what you are looking at.. Write the check already, and enjoy her.

 

[scundy2]

I bought my well-maintained 1979 Morgan 382 in 2012 and paid to have a pre-purchase survey (more thouough than an insurace survey) plus a sea trial. It was well wort the money.

Although I had studied the Morgan 38x for several years before purchase, I did not know enough about the boat (and about applicable standards and regulations) to perform my own survey - even with help from owners forums and publications.

By the way, $1500 sounds too high by at least half.