Capsize?

[lokiii]

Has anyone here accidentally capsized an H170? And if so, how did it happen?

Reason I ask, is I've heard---somewhere--about the boat being "tender" with large sail area, light weight, high position of main, possibly hull shape... But I've found it actually seems realatively hard to do.

I've had my H170 only about a year and a half, but I sail it most every weekend all year long, usually by myself, in a variety of wind conditions. In high winds (usually 25kt predicted) I've sailed with main only, reefed main, and both sails. Generally, when the boat leans more than about 45 degrees, with main only, it heads up into the wind (as expected). This past weekend, with 25-35kt gusts, sailed mostly with both sails (flattened main), and I had a hard time keeping it from heading up in large gusts (close reach). I thought the jib out would keep it in line, but there still is a point when the water hits the top of the hull, that it still turned into the wind. I suppose the rudder is comming out and the boat pivots. Once, the boat was leaning quite a bit, but I wanted to avod a bit of crud in the water, and tryed to do a quick serpantine on the downwind side, but pulled the tiller and it still just went straight, slowing with the drag.

And I hesitate to mention the one time I had an accidental gybe on a weird day, just pulling away from the dock--me scrambling not to fall in backwards, boat starts leaning, turned into the wind, and settled before I got it together. Embarrassing. Is it hard to tip this boat over?

 

[Kermit]

I try not to respond to questions that I have no answer for, but it sounds to me like you've answered it for us!

Kermit

 

[Fly_H23]

Our 170 was more stable than most daysailers we've owned. You should experiment on a calm day and learn what it takes to capsize your 170 and how to right it again. Pick a warm light wind day and wear a PDF of course. Do you have a float on the masthead?

My daysailing experience ranges from Laser2's, sunfish, Holder 14 and many other light centerboard boats.

 

[lokiii]

Kermit--heh, I guess so. Should have stopped after the first sentence! Curious how anyone has accidentally capsized H170.

Fly--I'm guessing I'll have to swing from the stays like some pudgy tarzan. Bit cold to get motivated to be in the water, unless I suasage into my wetsuit--yuck. Seriously, I may do that this summer at a lake where I can be out away from folks (at 7000', still cold water though) and have a ski boat nearby. The guy I bought it from said he'd filled the top of the mast with foam.

 

[esterhazyinoz]

If the PO foamed the mast and caulked all the rivet holes, that should stop water getting in and weighing your mast down to the extent that the boat will turn turtle. Also you sound like you know how to set and trim your sails for the prevailing wind conditions. Have you also considered installing hiking straps? Much easier to do so on a H170 as compared to my H15. Both these boats respond well to shifting the human ballast. Even one person hiking out would provide a lot of righting moment.

 

[lokiii]

That would be a thought, on the occasion I have someone with me. My wife prefers sitiing with the dog enjoying view--not so much being crew. I'm imagining convincing her, "Yea, go ahead and hang out there, your 100lbs will make all the difference, while I sit my 280lbs comfortably on the bench."

Suppose I could switch that around, but then I'd probably discover another way to capsize the boat.

And as I'm about to leave work for a 4 day weekend I check the weather forcast--gale warnings through Sunday. Yeesh.

 

[Fly_H23]

Just pick a hot day this summer when the wind is light and remember to uncleat the main and jib sheets before trying to right the boat. A sail full of water is impossible to lift if it's cleated.

 

[esterhazyinoz]

280lbs makes a lot of righting moment as long as it is on the windward side, even if it is sitting inboard on the bench. I learned to have a lot of respect for sudden high winds after being hit with what must have been 45knts + on a race start line squeezed in between 30 other yachts.

 

[BlueRunner]

A couple of years ago, I saw a 170 turtle or nearly turtle. I was a very windy day with white caps. The reason I saw the episode was that I happened to see the boat on a trailer heading for the local launch site on my lake and I was very interest in seeing the mast step operation since I had just bought a 170 and had a FIT stepping the mast for the first time.

The two guys were very helpful in showing me how to setup the boat. Since it was very windy, I questioned them about going out. The wind was blowing almost directly to the boat launch site which meant a immediate tack operation to leave the docking area. They told me that due to the wind conditions, they were only going to use the jib.

When I demoed my 170 about a month or so before this operation, it was also very windy. The salesperson told me it was too windy to hoist the main and we also went out on only the jib. I found the boat to be so squirrelly in these conditions that I almost didn't buy it. A couple of times I thought we were going to go over and the only thing that prevented it was "dumping" the jib.

Back to the story above. The two guys tried to tack with only the jib, but they couldn't make ANY headway into the wind. After going back and forth at least 2 times, I saw them decide to hoist the main. After the main was up, the boat went "over" in within 30 seconds or so. While it didn't turtle completely due to the shallow water, I'm guessing initially it went over about 150 degrees. They tried to right the boat, but were unable. A couple of HEROES motored over and pulled the boat back to the dock where with some other muscle, the boat was righted and then put back on the trailer as their day was over.

Since I was the owner of a new 170, I was very interested in what happened. I asked them about the center board being locked down as it plainly wasn't when I looked in the cockpit while the boat was tied to the dock (see picture below) and they both said the center board was in fact locked down when they went over. However, in looking at the first photo below and zooming in, the center board is clearly almost completely retracted. I suspect when the boat went over past 90 degrees, the board retracted. While I have no proof, I also question whether these guys got the rudder fully down as the boat didn't seem to have any authority in tacking into the wind. About the best they could do was a "reach" back and forth. While it seems unlikely, I'm even wondering if they put the centerboard down due to the inability to go windward with the jib.

Earlier in the year I was involved in a knockdown in a similar situation (not my Hunter.) In leaving the shore, due to the wind, I did push the dagger board completely down, but didn't have time to lock it due to minding the sheets and rudder in the heavy wind. When this boat went over, the dagger board slipped right out of the boat while turtled and that was the end of trying to right it. I had to tow it to shore to turn it back upright.

I have to give the two dunked sailors a bit of credit though as they were back in the water the next weekend as if nothing had happened other than ruining their cell phones. If you zoom in on the first photo, you can see that the centerboard is almost completely retracted.

Also, I noticed that they quickly installed a float on the top of the mast after the incident!!!

When the incident happened, I quickly pulled out my iPhone to take the 2 shots below.

 

[ddeand]

Interesting write-up and photos - thanks!

Dean

 

[offline]

Although not a Hunter 170 I have a 146 and it seems that these are very tender and active boats....

I capsized Lido 14's all the time (accidentally and on purpose) when I was learning back in the 80's... I became very good at righting them...

You shouldn't need to much effort to get it right side up again. Make sure that the mainsheet and jibs are loose, daggerboard down and start experting some leverage on them. They should start to come up.

 

[esterhazyinoz]

I know this is an odd comment from a sailor, but I only like being ON the water and not IN it. I always have what W.C. Fields said about what fish do in the water running through my head when I am sailing, LOL.
I actively use all my skills and knowledge trying to stay in a relatively dry condition when sailing. I've broached larger boats I previously owned but never got dumped. I know one day I will and I have all the theory burnt into that ROM chip that is in my skull. So I will continue to maintain a high level of attention and apply what I know about sail trim to the prevailing conditions when I venture forth.
Hope all of you in the Northern Hemisphere have a great sailing season!

 

[lokiii]

Blurunner--you said you got knocked down. How did it happen? What kind of reach, what was your sail set-up (I've never tried jib only)?

On a related note, I just had a 4 day weekend, and 3 of those days were 40-45kt winds. I didn't go out. Yesterday was about 25kt, but when I went to get the boat from the yard, my trailer jack broke and I couldn't lower it to the hitch, and being a holiday, my local trailer parts store was closed--grrrr.

 

[BlueRunner]

Blurunner--you said you got knocked down. How did it happen? What kind of reach, what was your sail set-up (I've never tried jib only)?

Well, I don't like to rehash that day with the bad memories (nearly $600 for a new rudder and dagger board). The boat is a Gig Harbor 12' row/sailing model. I didn't have a lot of experience with it and I probably shouldn't have been out that day with the windy conditions. When I left the beach, due to the winds, there was a lot to do is a very short time. Lower the rudder, insert the dagger board, hoist the jib and main and all the while, semi-minding the tiller. That day I failed 2 of these tasks. An F grade on the rudder and a D- on the dagger board. Re the dagger board, I didn't have time to lock it down with my bungee cord and re the rudder, I thought I pulled it completely down, but with everything else going on, I didn't notice that I didn't.

Fatal error for the rudder AND the dagger board.

As you can see for the second shot below, the rudder is trailing in a near horizontal position rather than straight down. So, there I was, underway and thinking everything was set properly. My wife was taking pictures from the beach. The second shot below shows me trying to beat upwind. I then made the mistake of jam cleatling the main sheet. Due to the lack of rudder authority, I was unable to hold my tack heading when a gust of wind knocked me to starboard. As I came around, the wind hit the main directly from the side and over I went before I could release the sheet.

The boat completely turtled, with the dagger board slipping out the top, along with the rudder, both doing a "deep six".

With me "towing" and probably a bigger factor of the wind pushing, the boat was blown toward the shore. I was only maybe 200' or so from the shore when I went over. With the tip of the mast stuck in the sand, it was a real bugger to right the boat without a dagger board for leverage. In the first shot, a neighbor jumped in the water to help me right the boat.

The moral of the story is that even at 4 knots, things can go to hell in seconds.

 

[Fly_H23]

A couple of years ago, I saw a 170 turtle or nearly turtle. I was a very windy day with white caps. The reason I saw the episode was that I happened to see the boat on a trailer heading for the local launch site on my lake and I was very interest in seeing the mast step operation since I had just bought a 170 and had a FIT stepping the mast for the first time.

The two guys were very helpful in showing me how to setup the boat. Since it was very windy, I questioned them about going out. The wind was blowing almost directly to the boat launch site which meant a immediate tack operation to leave the docking area. They told me that due to the wind conditions, they were only going to use the jib.

When I demoed my 170 about a month or so before this operation, it was also very windy. The salesperson told me it was too windy to hoist the main and we also went out on only the jib. I found the boat to be so squirrelly in these conditions that I almost didn't buy it. A couple of times I thought we were going to go over and the only thing that prevented it was "dumping" the jib.

Back to the story above. The two guys tried to tack with only the jib, but they couldn't make ANY headway into the wind. After going back and forth at least 2 times, I saw them decide to hoist the main. After the main was up, the boat went "over" in within 30 seconds or so. While it didn't turtle completely due to the shallow water, I'm guessing initially it went over about 150 degrees. They tried to right the boat, but were unable. A couple of HEROES motored over and pulled the boat back to the dock where with some other muscle, the boat was righted and then put back on the trailer as their day was over.

Since I was the owner of a new 170, I was very interested in what happened. I asked them about the center board being locked down as it plainly wasn't when I looked in the cockpit while the boat was tied to the dock (see picture below) and they both said the center board was in fact locked down when they went over. However, in looking at the first photo below and zooming in, the center board is clearly almost completely retracted. I suspect when the boat went over past 90 degrees, the board retracted. While I have no proof, I also question whether these guys got the rudder fully down as the boat didn't seem to have any authority in tacking into the wind. About the best they could do was a "reach" back and forth. While it seems unlikely, I'm even wondering if they put the centerboard down due to the inability to go windward with the jib.

Earlier in the year I was involved in a knockdown in a similar situation (not my Hunter.) In leaving the shore, due to the wind, I did push the dagger board completely down, but didn't have time to lock it due to minding the sheets and rudder in the heavy wind. When this boat went over, the dagger board slipped right out of the boat while turtled and that was the end of trying to right it. I had to tow it to shore to turn it back upright.

I have to give the two dunked sailors a bit of credit though as they were back in the water the next weekend as if nothing had happened other than ruining their cell phones. If you zoom in on the first photo, you can see that the centerboard is almost completely retracted.

Also, I noticed that they quickly installed a float on the top of the mast after the incident!!!

When the incident happened, I quickly pulled out my iPhone to take the 2 shots below.

Great story and observations. I couldn't help notice that the jib was still cleated making it nearly impossible to right the boat.