I had trouble this past season with my auto pilot keeping my boat on course. It was calibrated correctly but would veer to port bit by bit and the heaver the wind the faster it would veer off. Raymarine says that it needs a rudder position sensor to keep it on course. The local yard is adding the sensor but says that the ST4000 system is too small for the boat and even with the sensor will not keep a heading in stronger winds and waters. The ST4000 is rated for boats 15,000 lbs to 17,000 lbs displacement. The Hunter 36 is listed at 13,900 lbs but loaded can exceed 16,000lbs Has anyone else having this problem?
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Frank, the technical advice you got from...
Raymarine seems haywire to me. The ST4000 kept our H28 steady on course. The fluxgate compass should keep your ST4000 on course. Double check to make sure it is installed properly. I did not rely on our ST4000 in heavy seas. It was reactive by design, which does not compensate for steering adjustment needed in these types of seas. It should work well on your boat. Terry
Raymarine seems haywire to me. The ST4000 kept our H28 steady on course. The fluxgate compass should keep your ST4000 on course. Double check to make sure it is installed properly. I did not rely on our ST4000 in heavy seas. It was reactive by design, which does not compensate for steering adjustment needed in these types of seas. It should work well on your boat. Terry
You should be OK as far as displacement
The Raymarine Tech I talked to recently said that if the boat's displacement was within the general parameters of the ST4000, it is acceptable. In other words, there is plenty of capasity for loading, etc. There are other reasons to consider a below-decks model as Terry has noted, but capasity shouldn't be an issue in your case, at least according to Raymarine. RD
The Raymarine Tech I talked to recently said that if the boat's displacement was within the general parameters of the ST4000, it is acceptable. In other words, there is plenty of capasity for loading, etc. There are other reasons to consider a below-decks model as Terry has noted, but capasity shouldn't be an issue in your case, at least according to Raymarine. RD
Frank, I had the same problem with my 36
I stopped using my ST4000, waste of time. Never could track no matter how calm the seas were. Raymarine suggested the rudder sensor...6 months latter it still tracks well. Now I love my ST4000.... get the sensor it works. good luck abe
I stopped using my ST4000, waste of time. Never could track no matter how calm the seas were. Raymarine suggested the rudder sensor...6 months latter it still tracks well. Now I love my ST4000.... get the sensor it works. good luck abe
ST4000
Frank I had the same problem when I sailed my 34 across the Atlantic. I finally traced it to a positive wire from my Air X which was routed to within 2ft of the flux gate compass.As the wind increased the charge from the Air X increased and caused the compass to slowly veer off course. Since I moved the compass as far from any other electrical wiring as I could it seems to work fine. If you do not have a wind generator I wonder if something else producing or drawing current that has its wires routed somewhere near the fluxgate compass might be the problem. Just an idea. Andrew PS Since the Atlantic crossing 2 years ago we have sailed another 4000 miles around the med using the ST 4000 with no problems.
Frank I had the same problem when I sailed my 34 across the Atlantic. I finally traced it to a positive wire from my Air X which was routed to within 2ft of the flux gate compass.As the wind increased the charge from the Air X increased and caused the compass to slowly veer off course. Since I moved the compass as far from any other electrical wiring as I could it seems to work fine. If you do not have a wind generator I wonder if something else producing or drawing current that has its wires routed somewhere near the fluxgate compass might be the problem. Just an idea. Andrew PS Since the Atlantic crossing 2 years ago we have sailed another 4000 miles around the med using the ST 4000 with no problems.
H356 had the same issue
I installed the rudder position sensor on our old H356 and it did help. Our new boat has the hydraulic Raymarine unit. We had a Lake Michigan crossing this summer with gusty 30 to 35 knot winds and it steered us straight to our waypoint. Even with the wind shifts and the stress that sailing at 9 knots can have on the steering system, we never were more than a few degrees off course. If the wheel pilot gets tired I would highly recommend the rudder post mounted unit. I think it is the ST6000? Good luck.
I installed the rudder position sensor on our old H356 and it did help. Our new boat has the hydraulic Raymarine unit. We had a Lake Michigan crossing this summer with gusty 30 to 35 knot winds and it steered us straight to our waypoint. Even with the wind shifts and the stress that sailing at 9 knots can have on the steering system, we never were more than a few degrees off course. If the wheel pilot gets tired I would highly recommend the rudder post mounted unit. I think it is the ST6000? Good luck.
Ensure Proper Conditions Avail. for an Autopilot
It's easy to lambaste a product such as an autopilot for not working properly when, in fact, it isn't doing so for reasons beyond it's control. Autopilots can easily be affected by supplied currents, outside influences on their magnetic compasses, and improper setting. The average do-it-yourselfer doesn't have the capability to detect the conditions of the supplied currents. It takes technical equipment such as a scope and someone who knows how to use one and interpret what they read. Bundling wires alongside other conductors, especially AC, can/will result in changes to the supply currents. Currents create a magnetic field which, when it increases and collapses, will cause current changes in nearby conductors. Voltages can spike up and down due to other loads in the electrical system and these will impact the autopilot. Loads such as a water pump, refrigeration, or even an inverter, can cause problems with an autopilot. Proper wire size, keeping conductors away from other potential problem conductors which emit magnetic fields, and even shielding, will reduce problems with the new installation. Magnetic interferences will make it more difficult for magnetic sensors to do their job. Magnetic interference can be caused by engines, anchor chain, gas cans, canned goods, inverter transformers, etc. The greater the magnetic interference the less able magnetic sensors are to work properly. The earth's magnetic field is quite weak compared to other fields generated on a boat which are in very close proximity to the sensor. The boat-generated magnetic fields can overpower the earth's magnetic fields to cause undesirable results. The settings on the ST may be able to mitigate some problems, to a degree, but it's the installer that needs to understand the holistic magnetic/current picture and what’s happening. Installation of an autopilot isn't as simple as plugging a table lamp into a home wall socket. There is much more knowledge required about how things work than that. It would be good not to beat up the manufacturers of equipment unnecessarily (without knowing for sure their product is the culpret) because the next step could result in required dealer in$talls.
It's easy to lambaste a product such as an autopilot for not working properly when, in fact, it isn't doing so for reasons beyond it's control. Autopilots can easily be affected by supplied currents, outside influences on their magnetic compasses, and improper setting. The average do-it-yourselfer doesn't have the capability to detect the conditions of the supplied currents. It takes technical equipment such as a scope and someone who knows how to use one and interpret what they read. Bundling wires alongside other conductors, especially AC, can/will result in changes to the supply currents. Currents create a magnetic field which, when it increases and collapses, will cause current changes in nearby conductors. Voltages can spike up and down due to other loads in the electrical system and these will impact the autopilot. Loads such as a water pump, refrigeration, or even an inverter, can cause problems with an autopilot. Proper wire size, keeping conductors away from other potential problem conductors which emit magnetic fields, and even shielding, will reduce problems with the new installation. Magnetic interferences will make it more difficult for magnetic sensors to do their job. Magnetic interference can be caused by engines, anchor chain, gas cans, canned goods, inverter transformers, etc. The greater the magnetic interference the less able magnetic sensors are to work properly. The earth's magnetic field is quite weak compared to other fields generated on a boat which are in very close proximity to the sensor. The boat-generated magnetic fields can overpower the earth's magnetic fields to cause undesirable results. The settings on the ST may be able to mitigate some problems, to a degree, but it's the installer that needs to understand the holistic magnetic/current picture and what’s happening. Installation of an autopilot isn't as simple as plugging a table lamp into a home wall socket. There is much more knowledge required about how things work than that. It would be good not to beat up the manufacturers of equipment unnecessarily (without knowing for sure their product is the culpret) because the next step could result in required dealer in$talls.
4000 Autopilot
Frank, I installed the sensor unit when my 4000 was installed and still had the same problem you decribed. I went through a series of efforts to correct the problem. Besides tying various settings, I relocated the flux gate compass to the rear of the boat. It is now on the back side of the rear bulhead behind the aft stateroom. That helped some. I think that the more forward location, instaled professionally, was in a palce that was subject to too much yaw. Then I added the gyro stabilizer from Raymarine. Pricey, but that helped more. Quite a bit more. The final fix, and the one that surprised me the most was unexpected. I bought a Max prop. Since then, the autopilot capabilities have been fantastic. My theory is that the fixed three blade I had on the 356 was creating enough turbulence right in front of the rudder to lower the effectiveness of the rudder. With the new Max Prop, I'm not only going faster, but the 4000 is handling wind it couldn't touch before with any consistency. My boat is in Alameda, and the Max Prop was installed in Richmond. The SF Bay sailors will know that I had to sail back across the "slot" to get home after the install. The winds were running above 30 knots. I had the autopilot on, reefed just enough, one rail running just above the water, and sat under the dodger all the way across contemplating not only the extra speed, but why the autopilot was doing so well. Even when the wind would gust up higher, the steering deflection necessary was less than necessary in the past. Dan Jonas (S/V Feije II)
Frank, I installed the sensor unit when my 4000 was installed and still had the same problem you decribed. I went through a series of efforts to correct the problem. Besides tying various settings, I relocated the flux gate compass to the rear of the boat. It is now on the back side of the rear bulhead behind the aft stateroom. That helped some. I think that the more forward location, instaled professionally, was in a palce that was subject to too much yaw. Then I added the gyro stabilizer from Raymarine. Pricey, but that helped more. Quite a bit more. The final fix, and the one that surprised me the most was unexpected. I bought a Max prop. Since then, the autopilot capabilities have been fantastic. My theory is that the fixed three blade I had on the 356 was creating enough turbulence right in front of the rudder to lower the effectiveness of the rudder. With the new Max Prop, I'm not only going faster, but the 4000 is handling wind it couldn't touch before with any consistency. My boat is in Alameda, and the Max Prop was installed in Richmond. The SF Bay sailors will know that I had to sail back across the "slot" to get home after the install. The winds were running above 30 knots. I had the autopilot on, reefed just enough, one rail running just above the water, and sat under the dodger all the way across contemplating not only the extra speed, but why the autopilot was doing so well. Even when the wind would gust up higher, the steering deflection necessary was less than necessary in the past. Dan Jonas (S/V Feije II)
The ST 4000, not for me
My 1993 33.5 Hunter came with the ST4000 when I bought it in 2000.Since then I have replaced the fluxgate compass,the head and the wheel drive(twice).This past Saturday, while motoring in calm seas enroute to Miami, the autopiolt dropped out twice.The thought of this happening at night while enroute to the Bahamas is scary.Am now looking at other brands.
My 1993 33.5 Hunter came with the ST4000 when I bought it in 2000.Since then I have replaced the fluxgate compass,the head and the wheel drive(twice).This past Saturday, while motoring in calm seas enroute to Miami, the autopiolt dropped out twice.The thought of this happening at night while enroute to the Bahamas is scary.Am now looking at other brands.
Nine Years and 400 hours
on my 4000. I replaced a clutch lever and had the belt replaced as PM. Also had the head unit replaced when new under warranty. This thing was great, tracked like a champ and never was underpowered even in some exciting conditions on my Vision 32. Patrick, you should check voltage and connections before you toss it. Probably something simple. Rick D.
on my 4000. I replaced a clutch lever and had the belt replaced as PM. Also had the head unit replaced when new under warranty. This thing was great, tracked like a champ and never was underpowered even in some exciting conditions on my Vision 32. Patrick, you should check voltage and connections before you toss it. Probably something simple. Rick D.
These Are My Settings
From my boat manual: 2 July 2001, call to Raytheon re calibrating the Autohelm 4000ST: 14 cal? Then hit #1 key at same time. Bring down rudder gain to 2 +/- 1 key Response 2 +/- 1 key Autotime 3 vice 4 Drive type 2 vice 1 Service: 800-539-5539, #2 Repair Dept, #1 Autohelm Raymarine Attn: Service 22 Cotton Road Unit D Nashua NH 03063 Attached is a picture where we motored from over the top of Prince of Wales Island (AK) down to Meyers Chuck. The water was flat and we went for miles (from a point over the horizon) without any course adjustment to the Autopilot.
From my boat manual: 2 July 2001, call to Raytheon re calibrating the Autohelm 4000ST: 14 cal? Then hit #1 key at same time. Bring down rudder gain to 2 +/- 1 key Response 2 +/- 1 key Autotime 3 vice 4 Drive type 2 vice 1 Service: 800-539-5539, #2 Repair Dept, #1 Autohelm Raymarine Attn: Service 22 Cotton Road Unit D Nashua NH 03063 Attached is a picture where we motored from over the top of Prince of Wales Island (AK) down to Meyers Chuck. The water was flat and we went for miles (from a point over the horizon) without any course adjustment to the Autopilot.
Here is the Clarance Strait Picture
Forgot to check that little box! Darn! Anyway, here is the picture mentioned in my previous post.
Forgot to check that little box! Darn! Anyway, here is the picture mentioned in my previous post.
John, all of these autopilots face
the same design challenges of proper installation, voltage spikes, etc. Some manufacturers do a much better job overcoming these problems and most do work ok. Some installers can overcome all of the engineering in the world and install things wrong too. My experience is that the ST4000 is usually ok for most uses but not when things get rough. I do not have any experience with the rudder or wind sensors though. I doubt that it would make any difference to my main gripe about that unit. Several of them I have used have come apart physically when the conditions were fine. I do not know why that happens but it does indicate some major design faults. My experience with service a few years ago may not be indicative of what you can expect today but it was terrible for the st4000. I would suggest a unit with a protected rudder actuator would be preferred if you expect performance in rough conditions. It is also good insurance for broken steering cables etc.
the same design challenges of proper installation, voltage spikes, etc. Some manufacturers do a much better job overcoming these problems and most do work ok. Some installers can overcome all of the engineering in the world and install things wrong too. My experience is that the ST4000 is usually ok for most uses but not when things get rough. I do not have any experience with the rudder or wind sensors though. I doubt that it would make any difference to my main gripe about that unit. Several of them I have used have come apart physically when the conditions were fine. I do not know why that happens but it does indicate some major design faults. My experience with service a few years ago may not be indicative of what you can expect today but it was terrible for the st4000. I would suggest a unit with a protected rudder actuator would be preferred if you expect performance in rough conditions. It is also good insurance for broken steering cables etc.
Reply to Patrick re 4000
... and also trying to stay on topic with Franks original post. Re: "design challenges of proper installation, voltage spikes, etc. Some manufacturers do a much better job overcoming these problems and most do work ok." My comment would be that it's impossible to design a fluxgate compass that will be able to sniff out the earths magnetic field over the other magnetic influences/disturbances nearby. Engines, iron keels, anchor chain, metal fuel tanks, outboards, and lets not forget those ever present stereo speakers. All these magnetic items will "mask" the earths magnetic field to a greater or lesser degree and their cumulative effect can cause problems. The fluxgate compass only sees a magnetic field - it can't possibly tell what the origin of the field is. So if the boat owner wants to start throwing in some more magnetic fields to mask the earths magnetic field then it will be increasingly difficult for the fluxgate compass to find a good signal to work off of. Now the voice of experience. I had exactly the same (or very similar) problem to Frank with the installation of my second Autohelm. The first one was the ST4000 which I had for probably 10 or more years but the belt went kaput just a week before our big summer trip so I just bought a new ST4000+ and installed it while under way. History on the ST4000: For those that may not have been around then, the ST4000 had a control box with it's fluxgate compass co-located in the box. Standardly, the contol box is mounted within easy reach of the helm. Being right handed I had mine to the right, naturally. On the HL-35 there is a seat to the right and aft of the helm, which is one side of the transom walk-through. Under the seat there is an excellent storage space for all kinds of stuff. I tried puting my small mushroom anchor there, or, in one case, a metal gas can. However, the proximity of these metal objects, even though they were nearly three feet away, to the fluxgate compass were enough to cause aberation problems with the autopilot. Lesson learned: Keep anything and everything ferous far away from the fluxgate compass! With the acquisition of the newer ST4000+ the fluxgate compass came as a separate unit. I wound up locating it under the aft cabin berth near the centerline, aft of the shaft log. The 12V supply wire, however, runs from the main panel to the new control head and goes fairly close by the Heart Freedom 10. There is a problem whenever the inverter kicks on, such as when my wife goes to grind the coffee beans, because it throws the Autohelm into a hard right. Lesson Learned: (on our boat) Don't run the inverter without telling the person at the helm what you're about to do. Another Lesson Learned: electrical currents can mess up the autopilot. We sailed with this ST4000 setup all over the place and in all kinds of sea conditions with nary a problem. For example, this includes a trip in the Pacific "up the outside" from Bull Harbor near Cape Scott direct to Cape St James in the Charlottes with 25 knots apparent on a close reach, all night long, and one reef in the main, fog, drizzle and rain, and the ST4000 never needed a course adjustment because it couldn't hold the course. Also, the boat was loaded down to the boot stripe. If I could make a comment to Frank it would be to try making some changes before jumping to the sensor - but I guess the yard is already adding it on.
... and also trying to stay on topic with Franks original post. Re: "design challenges of proper installation, voltage spikes, etc. Some manufacturers do a much better job overcoming these problems and most do work ok." My comment would be that it's impossible to design a fluxgate compass that will be able to sniff out the earths magnetic field over the other magnetic influences/disturbances nearby. Engines, iron keels, anchor chain, metal fuel tanks, outboards, and lets not forget those ever present stereo speakers. All these magnetic items will "mask" the earths magnetic field to a greater or lesser degree and their cumulative effect can cause problems. The fluxgate compass only sees a magnetic field - it can't possibly tell what the origin of the field is. So if the boat owner wants to start throwing in some more magnetic fields to mask the earths magnetic field then it will be increasingly difficult for the fluxgate compass to find a good signal to work off of. Now the voice of experience. I had exactly the same (or very similar) problem to Frank with the installation of my second Autohelm. The first one was the ST4000 which I had for probably 10 or more years but the belt went kaput just a week before our big summer trip so I just bought a new ST4000+ and installed it while under way. History on the ST4000: For those that may not have been around then, the ST4000 had a control box with it's fluxgate compass co-located in the box. Standardly, the contol box is mounted within easy reach of the helm. Being right handed I had mine to the right, naturally. On the HL-35 there is a seat to the right and aft of the helm, which is one side of the transom walk-through. Under the seat there is an excellent storage space for all kinds of stuff. I tried puting my small mushroom anchor there, or, in one case, a metal gas can. However, the proximity of these metal objects, even though they were nearly three feet away, to the fluxgate compass were enough to cause aberation problems with the autopilot. Lesson learned: Keep anything and everything ferous far away from the fluxgate compass! With the acquisition of the newer ST4000+ the fluxgate compass came as a separate unit. I wound up locating it under the aft cabin berth near the centerline, aft of the shaft log. The 12V supply wire, however, runs from the main panel to the new control head and goes fairly close by the Heart Freedom 10. There is a problem whenever the inverter kicks on, such as when my wife goes to grind the coffee beans, because it throws the Autohelm into a hard right. Lesson Learned: (on our boat) Don't run the inverter without telling the person at the helm what you're about to do. Another Lesson Learned: electrical currents can mess up the autopilot. We sailed with this ST4000 setup all over the place and in all kinds of sea conditions with nary a problem. For example, this includes a trip in the Pacific "up the outside" from Bull Harbor near Cape Scott direct to Cape St James in the Charlottes with 25 knots apparent on a close reach, all night long, and one reef in the main, fog, drizzle and rain, and the ST4000 never needed a course adjustment because it couldn't hold the course. Also, the boat was loaded down to the boot stripe. If I could make a comment to Frank it would be to try making some changes before jumping to the sensor - but I guess the yard is already adding it on.
A Little overboard..no pun intended
I experienced all the issues mentioned so far with the 4000. My unit was calibrated and installed properly(I'm a marine electrician, systems tech). I had wag so bad I thought Ai owned a dog rather than a boat. I called Raymarine initially to get the rudder sensor, but they asked I change the internal settings, not just calibrate by the manual. I did as they asked and my problem was corrected...without the rudder sensor, and in most consitions and sea states...so far nothing more than 8' swells and force 7 winds. If your pedestal was wired correctly, you should have no erroneous voltages large enough to worry about. The only issue is the location of the compass, but i doubt that's your problem. Call Ray Marine and ask for the correct settings for the 356 and try that before you spend tons of money.
I experienced all the issues mentioned so far with the 4000. My unit was calibrated and installed properly(I'm a marine electrician, systems tech). I had wag so bad I thought Ai owned a dog rather than a boat. I called Raymarine initially to get the rudder sensor, but they asked I change the internal settings, not just calibrate by the manual. I did as they asked and my problem was corrected...without the rudder sensor, and in most consitions and sea states...so far nothing more than 8' swells and force 7 winds. If your pedestal was wired correctly, you should have no erroneous voltages large enough to worry about. The only issue is the location of the compass, but i doubt that's your problem. Call Ray Marine and ask for the correct settings for the 356 and try that before you spend tons of money.
probably interferance
Unless there are extreme loads, I think a 4000 should be able to manage a 36 ft boat OK. I have an old 1988 Legend 37 that only has a 3000 and it is so accurate that one time I aimed her at the opening of a bridge 2 miles away (by eyesight), pressed the "auto" button and let her do it all herself. I was under full sail with 15 kts and some gusts and waves, but she hit the hole perfectly. That's the OLD 3000 version without any of the fancy connections to otherr instruments or otehr corrective feedback. Your problem is bound to be something to do with where the unit is mounted or some current closeby. The only time mine has acted-up and not held course (in less than 25 knts) was once when a crewmember left the clip for his harness tether hanging right beside it. Of course, if you are overcanvassed and/or oversheeted for the conditions, such that there is a lot of feel in the helm, even a big burley person will not be able to hold course. The boat sails best (and the autopilot steers best) when reefing and precise sheeting keep it flatter than 15 degrees heel. jim
Unless there are extreme loads, I think a 4000 should be able to manage a 36 ft boat OK. I have an old 1988 Legend 37 that only has a 3000 and it is so accurate that one time I aimed her at the opening of a bridge 2 miles away (by eyesight), pressed the "auto" button and let her do it all herself. I was under full sail with 15 kts and some gusts and waves, but she hit the hole perfectly. That's the OLD 3000 version without any of the fancy connections to otherr instruments or otehr corrective feedback. Your problem is bound to be something to do with where the unit is mounted or some current closeby. The only time mine has acted-up and not held course (in less than 25 knts) was once when a crewmember left the clip for his harness tether hanging right beside it. Of course, if you are overcanvassed and/or oversheeted for the conditions, such that there is a lot of feel in the helm, even a big burley person will not be able to hold course. The boat sails best (and the autopilot steers best) when reefing and precise sheeting keep it flatter than 15 degrees heel. jim
Ivan
Sorry for the delay. My autopilot book is on the boat and wrapped up for the season. Call Raymarine Tech Service and ask for the dealer set up settings for the 356. They'll be happy to give them to you.
Sorry for the delay. My autopilot book is on the boat and wrapped up for the season. Call Raymarine Tech Service and ask for the dealer set up settings for the 356. They'll be happy to give them to you.
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