just wanted to let you know that the passage from newport beach to hawaii has begun. the best part of the story so far is the hunt for a boat! it turned out to be a real dousey. its funney though, the first boat we looked at was a hunter 450 passage and the last boat we looked at was a 450 passage, so we gave up and bought it. i have read alot of articles on passage making and planning, the consensus is to take years to plan your trip, well we just shorted the schedule a little bit. we started looking about 6 months ago for a boat and after many trips to brokers and almost giving up, it was right there all the time. it was a buyers market so we feel that it was a great time to make the plunge. our schedule is as follows: boat shopping - 6 months purchase offer - 3 days closing - 10 days rig/hull & engine surveys - 3 days repairs per survey - 10 days sea trials - 3 days prep the boat - 5 days passage to hawaii - 15/18 days god willing! the key to the confort level is that we did a exhaustive search for a vessel in our price range "we got the best bang for the buck" made every imaginable inspection and survey. preped the vessel accordingly. bought all life safty equipment one could think of and of corse "hired a good skipper". in all of this we tried to do what was required with surveys, finance and insurance and found out things can get pretty complicated in making sure you have all of the bases covered. i was prepaird to buy a boat, jump in it and go but it just does not work that way. the kicker for me was making sure that the boat was properly insured to cover my investment and to my surprise " i could not get insurance for 1st year insurance, 1st passage insurance during this time of year hence "the skipper" we have done all we can in preperation for the trip so we are off! we went from pounding the pavement to making a offer on the boat dec 6th 2002 to having the vessel here jan. 20th 2003 so please give a shout out for the crew and say a little prayer for their safe journey. i will keep you posted of the outcome off the passage. mahalo, jim if anyone needs any insight on "what not do" for boat shopping, i can probable provide some. we sold every thing we owned except for 2 suit cases of clothing, a small crate of boat gear and 2 tickets to hawaii just for starters. so "be bold" and live on.
- Status
5 days to prep the boat?
We're planning the same things, albeit to a different destination so this is why I ask. It is taking us months to prep for an extended cruise and I can't begin to imagine how to do it quicker other than perhaps exclude some of the following: install additional 80 gal fuel tank, install R/O water maker, verify proper inventory of spares, install baby stay and outfit/test sail with storm sails, inspect rigging and replace suspect parts (and purchase/cut spare shrouds), do routine maintenance of windlass, winches, etc before departure and prep ditch kit are among the things we have started plus some things unique to our wants the boat didn't have e.g., R/C AC... Am I just paranoid or can it really be done in 5 days? Don
We're planning the same things, albeit to a different destination so this is why I ask. It is taking us months to prep for an extended cruise and I can't begin to imagine how to do it quicker other than perhaps exclude some of the following: install additional 80 gal fuel tank, install R/O water maker, verify proper inventory of spares, install baby stay and outfit/test sail with storm sails, inspect rigging and replace suspect parts (and purchase/cut spare shrouds), do routine maintenance of windlass, winches, etc before departure and prep ditch kit are among the things we have started plus some things unique to our wants the boat didn't have e.g., R/C AC... Am I just paranoid or can it really be done in 5 days? Don
5 days prep!
dan to answere your question about the prep, i would have to say no. keep in mind we made an exhaustive search for a vessel that would make the journey to begin with. for me the prep started 25 years ago when i started sailing. when you think about it, its a pretty mental thing to drop the dock lines and go. we made sure of all of the basics for crusing. we approched this trip on a pretty traditional voyage with out all the fluff. the vessel was inspected & inspected again. had lots fuel, water and food stores (2) epribs (2) gps systems and every thing you can think for life safey issues. god willing its a 2 week trip =/-and has been done many times before. we are going with alot of backup and support from people that are in the know for weather forcasts, float plans and routes, we have been tracking weather patterns for some time and one thing is for sure "you got to go souht or you going to get you ass kicked" we are planning on going south from newport 188 south to 30 north and set up a rhumb line to honolulu. sound pretty simple, only time will tell. we tried as best we could to prep the boat and are confident the journey will go as planned. jim
dan to answere your question about the prep, i would have to say no. keep in mind we made an exhaustive search for a vessel that would make the journey to begin with. for me the prep started 25 years ago when i started sailing. when you think about it, its a pretty mental thing to drop the dock lines and go. we made sure of all of the basics for crusing. we approched this trip on a pretty traditional voyage with out all the fluff. the vessel was inspected & inspected again. had lots fuel, water and food stores (2) epribs (2) gps systems and every thing you can think for life safey issues. god willing its a 2 week trip =/-and has been done many times before. we are going with alot of backup and support from people that are in the know for weather forcasts, float plans and routes, we have been tracking weather patterns for some time and one thing is for sure "you got to go souht or you going to get you ass kicked" we are planning on going south from newport 188 south to 30 north and set up a rhumb line to honolulu. sound pretty simple, only time will tell. we tried as best we could to prep the boat and are confident the journey will go as planned. jim
Congratulations (and some advice)
Congratulations with your 450 Passage. What is her name (or new name)? I assume she is well equipped and from a relatively recent vintage. Since you apparently live in Hawaii, this would seem to be more like a one-time delivery, rather than the beginning of a series of passages. If you are an experienced passage maker (such as the typical delivery skipper would be) I can indeed see how it might be reasonable to start your trip after a relatively short preparation method. Once you are in Hawaii you can then take the time to properly prepare her for any further passaging and cruising. Most delivery skippers willing to undertake this type of passage would insist upon a couple of items they want to have on board, such as proper navigational instruments (sounds like you are fine there), a reliable hydraulic autopilot or windvane (?), a liferaft (?) and a drag device (?). Then there is the issue of properly secured batteries, hatches, companion way boards, cabinets, floor boards, etc. in case of a knock down. Personally, I would not take a fractional B&R rig offshore unless there was a redundant forestay (e.g. inner stay) in order to help keep the mast on board. Also, I would insist upon a credible emergency rudder (and/or a wing-on-wing double jib option)in order to keep tracking in the right direction in case you lose your rudder on this mostly downwind passage. By the way, The Corenman's West Marine Pacific Cup Handbook (written for just the passage you are planning) has a ton of sensible advice on how to prepare a light or medium-light cruising vessel. With regard to weather: If you go before April, as you seem to be planning, you need to be on the lookout for potentially very severe weather near the California coast. This is an El Nino year and the depressions roaring in from the polar circle pack a BIG wallop this season. The attached image from the FNMOC weather site (which I used recently for another H.O.W. post)shows how these coastal storms can have center pressures that are more reminiscent of cyclonic events than simply depressions. The second effect of the El Nino is that the usual Pacific High (already not too reliable before April) may be weak, absent or actually replaced by a near-stationary low (as happened to us during our 1997 El Nino passage to Hawaii). In the latter case, the Trades may be completely absent, requiring sailing vessels to motor for as long as 5-10 days. In other words, you want to have enough fuel onboard (unless you like to have a LOT of time for deepsea drift fishing). On both accounts (strong storm systems moving in plus a potentially weak Pacific High) your best chance of avoiding the worst weather and catching whatever Trades there are lies with going a little further South, if necessary. Within the Tropic latitudes your chances of bad weather on this passage are greatly reduced (as the pilot charts for the North Pacific will show). I sure don't want to rain on your parade and wish you an exhilarating and safe passage. Nonetheless, having made the same passage twice with a very similar vessel to yours (neither of which most sailors would take this far offshore; as both of us full well know) I felt obliged to put my 2 cents in. Flying Dutchman "Rivendel II" (Legend 43)
Congratulations with your 450 Passage. What is her name (or new name)? I assume she is well equipped and from a relatively recent vintage. Since you apparently live in Hawaii, this would seem to be more like a one-time delivery, rather than the beginning of a series of passages. If you are an experienced passage maker (such as the typical delivery skipper would be) I can indeed see how it might be reasonable to start your trip after a relatively short preparation method. Once you are in Hawaii you can then take the time to properly prepare her for any further passaging and cruising. Most delivery skippers willing to undertake this type of passage would insist upon a couple of items they want to have on board, such as proper navigational instruments (sounds like you are fine there), a reliable hydraulic autopilot or windvane (?), a liferaft (?) and a drag device (?). Then there is the issue of properly secured batteries, hatches, companion way boards, cabinets, floor boards, etc. in case of a knock down. Personally, I would not take a fractional B&R rig offshore unless there was a redundant forestay (e.g. inner stay) in order to help keep the mast on board. Also, I would insist upon a credible emergency rudder (and/or a wing-on-wing double jib option)in order to keep tracking in the right direction in case you lose your rudder on this mostly downwind passage. By the way, The Corenman's West Marine Pacific Cup Handbook (written for just the passage you are planning) has a ton of sensible advice on how to prepare a light or medium-light cruising vessel. With regard to weather: If you go before April, as you seem to be planning, you need to be on the lookout for potentially very severe weather near the California coast. This is an El Nino year and the depressions roaring in from the polar circle pack a BIG wallop this season. The attached image from the FNMOC weather site (which I used recently for another H.O.W. post)shows how these coastal storms can have center pressures that are more reminiscent of cyclonic events than simply depressions. The second effect of the El Nino is that the usual Pacific High (already not too reliable before April) may be weak, absent or actually replaced by a near-stationary low (as happened to us during our 1997 El Nino passage to Hawaii). In the latter case, the Trades may be completely absent, requiring sailing vessels to motor for as long as 5-10 days. In other words, you want to have enough fuel onboard (unless you like to have a LOT of time for deepsea drift fishing). On both accounts (strong storm systems moving in plus a potentially weak Pacific High) your best chance of avoiding the worst weather and catching whatever Trades there are lies with going a little further South, if necessary. Within the Tropic latitudes your chances of bad weather on this passage are greatly reduced (as the pilot charts for the North Pacific will show). I sure don't want to rain on your parade and wish you an exhilarating and safe passage. Nonetheless, having made the same passage twice with a very similar vessel to yours (neither of which most sailors would take this far offshore; as both of us full well know) I felt obliged to put my 2 cents in. Flying Dutchman "Rivendel II" (Legend 43)
Attachments
thanks for the advise
you are right on all of the above! i have my doubts about the b&r rig, buts its masthead in lieu of fractional for what thats worth. we tried our best to get the inner forestay arrangement but hunter could not commit to what to do about the structural intregrity of the deck since it has a forward head arrangement and no bulkhead to support the deck plate. we are definitely heading south/southwest first, hoping we can make do with 200 gallons of fuel and water (each). risky! probably yes, the intentions of the notice was not to create a parade but ask all to send a little prayer on the wind to help them through the trip! we plan on keeping the vessel here in this area for a few years sailing the local waters and i am not sure we have plans much past a trip south of the border on our return. if we were to plan of any extended crusing we would definitely consider something different than the 450. in my opinion it is a pretty cushy crusier that my wife thinks is pretty, but i think it will be fine in these waters. the trip across might get a little dicy but we will just have to hope for the best. since we are on the subject of the rig does any one else have an opinion of the B&R rigs, it seems hunter is still using them on their boats and my experience with this system is little to none. that was the reason we wanted to add a little beef to the rig to begin with. i was thinking innerstay and running backs none of which is reccommended by hunter. our skipper is a sams surveyor, rigger and licensed captain, with a very experienced crew so our comfort level lies in the combined efforts of all in preperation of the vessel for travel. thank you for the advice, sounds like you have done your homework lets just hope we have done ours! mahalo, jim
you are right on all of the above! i have my doubts about the b&r rig, buts its masthead in lieu of fractional for what thats worth. we tried our best to get the inner forestay arrangement but hunter could not commit to what to do about the structural intregrity of the deck since it has a forward head arrangement and no bulkhead to support the deck plate. we are definitely heading south/southwest first, hoping we can make do with 200 gallons of fuel and water (each). risky! probably yes, the intentions of the notice was not to create a parade but ask all to send a little prayer on the wind to help them through the trip! we plan on keeping the vessel here in this area for a few years sailing the local waters and i am not sure we have plans much past a trip south of the border on our return. if we were to plan of any extended crusing we would definitely consider something different than the 450. in my opinion it is a pretty cushy crusier that my wife thinks is pretty, but i think it will be fine in these waters. the trip across might get a little dicy but we will just have to hope for the best. since we are on the subject of the rig does any one else have an opinion of the B&R rigs, it seems hunter is still using them on their boats and my experience with this system is little to none. that was the reason we wanted to add a little beef to the rig to begin with. i was thinking innerstay and running backs none of which is reccommended by hunter. our skipper is a sams surveyor, rigger and licensed captain, with a very experienced crew so our comfort level lies in the combined efforts of all in preperation of the vessel for travel. thank you for the advice, sounds like you have done your homework lets just hope we have done ours! mahalo, jim
Rig
Jim - I am dealing with an H34 but I believe the same rig. I have heard of folks who have added an inner stay for a storm jib but I have no details how. I have been thinking of fabricating an inner stay (see related postings on this forum - We have been discussing how this could be done). This would also allow the genoa to stay furled while hanking on a storm jib and keep the jib off the deck out of possible wave action. Otherwise, I have been happy with the rig though I have only been out in about 30 knots of wind.
Jim - I am dealing with an H34 but I believe the same rig. I have heard of folks who have added an inner stay for a storm jib but I have no details how. I have been thinking of fabricating an inner stay (see related postings on this forum - We have been discussing how this could be done). This would also allow the genoa to stay furled while hanking on a storm jib and keep the jib off the deck out of possible wave action. Otherwise, I have been happy with the rig though I have only been out in about 30 knots of wind.
Some clarifications
I think you will be allright with the preparations you mentioned. Please make sure you will be able to receive weatherfaxes on board, especially that early in the year. It amazes me that Hunter does not recommend redundant systems, such as an inner stay and backstays, for a significant offshore passage. In the absence of a suitable bulkhead I don't think it will be too hard to mount a removable inner stay later, either with an internal rod or stay (if necessary, right through the foreward cabin; nobody wants to sleep there anyhow while you are in the big swells of the Tradewind belts). On "Rivendel II" we use both an inner stay and running backstays. Since offshore cruising is rarely a tacking duel, the amount of work involved in setting and releasing the "backs", as well as in rolling up the genoa far enough to pull the clew through the slot between the two stays is no real problem. By the way: without an inner stay I would make sure you have a strong new spinnaker halyard. First of all, this will give you redundancy in case someone lets the main halyard fly up the mast. Secondly, by cleating the spinnaker halyard off tightly to a strong spot on the bow, forward of the forestay (e.g. some part of the anchor roller system) the helmsperson will gain precious seconds in case the forestay carries away and therefore may be able to turn the vessel downwind fast enough to save the mast. Another important area of redundancy is the engine. In 1994 we made our first crossing to Hawaii and blew out the starter motor five days into the passage. Alas, that was about the only major component that I did not have a spare for. Fortunately, we were able to order a replacement by SSB and in Hilo the harbormaster came out by launch (after pestering him on the VHF all day as there was no wind and we were just drifting slowly to the reef in Hilo Bay) to throw it to us, so we could motor in and anchor in Radio Bay. So, if you don't have many engine spares be prepared to sail into Ala Wai Harbor (I presume) and dock under sail, if necessary...... Finally, as long as you make most of your offshore passage between the tropic latitudes (and have enough fuel in case the Trades are AWOL) the passage itself is likely to be a walk in the park compared to the coastal cruising along the West Coast and Baja or in the vicinity of the Hawaiian islands. Both the California Coast and the channels between the Hwaiian Islands are regularly mentioned by circumnavigators as the roughest part of the trip. Especially the Alenuihaha channel between the Big Island and Maui (also referred to as "the ship-eating channel")can put the fear of God into any reprobate crew member. The reason is, of course, that yard for yard, the mountains of Hawaii are taller than Mount Everest and have an enormous effect upon wind and weather around them. Also, the Channels between Oahu and Kauaii as well as Molokai have a pretty sobering reputation. As a result, many Hawaiian sailors complain that the really good weather windows for sailing around, and motoring in the windshadow off, these islands are few and far between. However, nothing should keep you from roaming all over the Tradewind areas of the North and South Pacific. This is easier than sailing around Hawaii! Also, properly rigged and sailed, the great upwind characterisitics of the B&R rig make it a joy to sail in the Tradewind belts as you will soon find out that you have one of the few yachts there that can sail as well against the Trades as with them. By contrast, many of the heavier, more traditional vessels have no choice than to wait for a depression to move through in oder to make their Easting (or have to detour via the higher latitudes). In other words, the 450 is a great boat for the Tradewind belts (i.e. much of the tropics). The trick is to stay away from hurricanes and to be very cautious when sailing in the vicinity of high coasts. Fair winds; Flying Dutchman "Rivendel II" (Legend 43, hull #1)
I think you will be allright with the preparations you mentioned. Please make sure you will be able to receive weatherfaxes on board, especially that early in the year. It amazes me that Hunter does not recommend redundant systems, such as an inner stay and backstays, for a significant offshore passage. In the absence of a suitable bulkhead I don't think it will be too hard to mount a removable inner stay later, either with an internal rod or stay (if necessary, right through the foreward cabin; nobody wants to sleep there anyhow while you are in the big swells of the Tradewind belts). On "Rivendel II" we use both an inner stay and running backstays. Since offshore cruising is rarely a tacking duel, the amount of work involved in setting and releasing the "backs", as well as in rolling up the genoa far enough to pull the clew through the slot between the two stays is no real problem. By the way: without an inner stay I would make sure you have a strong new spinnaker halyard. First of all, this will give you redundancy in case someone lets the main halyard fly up the mast. Secondly, by cleating the spinnaker halyard off tightly to a strong spot on the bow, forward of the forestay (e.g. some part of the anchor roller system) the helmsperson will gain precious seconds in case the forestay carries away and therefore may be able to turn the vessel downwind fast enough to save the mast. Another important area of redundancy is the engine. In 1994 we made our first crossing to Hawaii and blew out the starter motor five days into the passage. Alas, that was about the only major component that I did not have a spare for. Fortunately, we were able to order a replacement by SSB and in Hilo the harbormaster came out by launch (after pestering him on the VHF all day as there was no wind and we were just drifting slowly to the reef in Hilo Bay) to throw it to us, so we could motor in and anchor in Radio Bay. So, if you don't have many engine spares be prepared to sail into Ala Wai Harbor (I presume) and dock under sail, if necessary...... Finally, as long as you make most of your offshore passage between the tropic latitudes (and have enough fuel in case the Trades are AWOL) the passage itself is likely to be a walk in the park compared to the coastal cruising along the West Coast and Baja or in the vicinity of the Hawaiian islands. Both the California Coast and the channels between the Hwaiian Islands are regularly mentioned by circumnavigators as the roughest part of the trip. Especially the Alenuihaha channel between the Big Island and Maui (also referred to as "the ship-eating channel")can put the fear of God into any reprobate crew member. The reason is, of course, that yard for yard, the mountains of Hawaii are taller than Mount Everest and have an enormous effect upon wind and weather around them. Also, the Channels between Oahu and Kauaii as well as Molokai have a pretty sobering reputation. As a result, many Hawaiian sailors complain that the really good weather windows for sailing around, and motoring in the windshadow off, these islands are few and far between. However, nothing should keep you from roaming all over the Tradewind areas of the North and South Pacific. This is easier than sailing around Hawaii! Also, properly rigged and sailed, the great upwind characterisitics of the B&R rig make it a joy to sail in the Tradewind belts as you will soon find out that you have one of the few yachts there that can sail as well against the Trades as with them. By contrast, many of the heavier, more traditional vessels have no choice than to wait for a depression to move through in oder to make their Easting (or have to detour via the higher latitudes). In other words, the 450 is a great boat for the Tradewind belts (i.e. much of the tropics). The trick is to stay away from hurricanes and to be very cautious when sailing in the vicinity of high coasts. Fair winds; Flying Dutchman "Rivendel II" (Legend 43, hull #1)
the old Molokai Express
The old Molokai Express, its funney you should mention that, i have heard some real horror stories around here about the channels, right now its pretty kicked up out there i just hope our approach is timed so we can miss some of the experience. you know when we were looking for boats, we found a 43 that was in beautiful shape in the NW (still for sale if someone is looking). you know how you get the warm fuzzy feeling, well this one was prefect! it sound like yours has served you well which i am glad to here. as you know around here its pretty much day sailing so we are looking forward to spending time on the "beef cake" 450 and will probably install the innerstay after the vessel arrives. if you get blown off shore around here, well, off shore is not far off! so we will prepare for the worst and hope for the best. this will be a great place to hone ones sailing skills without having far to go for big water. i have been told its easy to get here in just about any thing. its heading out form here that really tells the tale. i appreciate the imput and will be checking in for some good adive as time go buy. mahalo, jim
The old Molokai Express, its funney you should mention that, i have heard some real horror stories around here about the channels, right now its pretty kicked up out there i just hope our approach is timed so we can miss some of the experience. you know when we were looking for boats, we found a 43 that was in beautiful shape in the NW (still for sale if someone is looking). you know how you get the warm fuzzy feeling, well this one was prefect! it sound like yours has served you well which i am glad to here. as you know around here its pretty much day sailing so we are looking forward to spending time on the "beef cake" 450 and will probably install the innerstay after the vessel arrives. if you get blown off shore around here, well, off shore is not far off! so we will prepare for the worst and hope for the best. this will be a great place to hone ones sailing skills without having far to go for big water. i have been told its easy to get here in just about any thing. its heading out form here that really tells the tale. i appreciate the imput and will be checking in for some good adive as time go buy. mahalo, jim
Interforestays on 450 is standard option
Jim, I am a little confused. Innerforestays are a standard option on the 450's. We have a 2000 model (hull # 233) and have a factory installed unit. It should not be a problem installing one, after the fact. But I am still confused when you say you got no positive feedback from Hunter regarding this issue. How or where did you add the extra 100 gal. of fuel ? Good Luck - Gordon Myers of s/v Utopia III
Jim, I am a little confused. Innerforestays are a standard option on the 450's. We have a 2000 model (hull # 233) and have a factory installed unit. It should not be a problem installing one, after the fact. But I am still confused when you say you got no positive feedback from Hunter regarding this issue. How or where did you add the extra 100 gal. of fuel ? Good Luck - Gordon Myers of s/v Utopia III
running backs and innerstays!
Gorden thanks for your responce, i have been working with a rigger in so cal. i am here in hawaii and the boat is there. i am thinking maybe he was trying to place the tack point behind the forward hatch inlieu at the bulkhead at the chain locker (thanks to advise form Carpe Diem, they told me that be the case), so i will have to check this after the boat arrives. we are hoping the trip across is going to be pretty uneventful and mostly a broad reach. we setteled for a storm sea anchor and bare poles if we get to a point of having to ride things out. may not be the best option we will just have to hope we will not have to go there! the fuel, i think we have some jerries that we will consume the first few days out. i did talk with hunter about the running backs and the innerstay, they told me about the innerstay set they offer, we do have the mast struts from the deck up to the mast so i am not sure if thats the difference? I have not had a chance to spend much time with the boat or the type of rig shes got (masthead B&R no back stay with lower deck/mast struts). what is your opinion of the struts other than the look like the may stop some pumping of the mast. do you have them "they look impressive!" we want to spend some time sailing the near coastal waters of hawaii so we can really see what she is made of (as well as what we are made of) before we go trying to turn a kitten into a lion if you know what i mean, blue water crusier! we are still considering her as a pretty cushy crusier and thats about all for now. after the 6th i will ask hunter for the real poop! mahalo, jim
Gorden thanks for your responce, i have been working with a rigger in so cal. i am here in hawaii and the boat is there. i am thinking maybe he was trying to place the tack point behind the forward hatch inlieu at the bulkhead at the chain locker (thanks to advise form Carpe Diem, they told me that be the case), so i will have to check this after the boat arrives. we are hoping the trip across is going to be pretty uneventful and mostly a broad reach. we setteled for a storm sea anchor and bare poles if we get to a point of having to ride things out. may not be the best option we will just have to hope we will not have to go there! the fuel, i think we have some jerries that we will consume the first few days out. i did talk with hunter about the running backs and the innerstay, they told me about the innerstay set they offer, we do have the mast struts from the deck up to the mast so i am not sure if thats the difference? I have not had a chance to spend much time with the boat or the type of rig shes got (masthead B&R no back stay with lower deck/mast struts). what is your opinion of the struts other than the look like the may stop some pumping of the mast. do you have them "they look impressive!" we want to spend some time sailing the near coastal waters of hawaii so we can really see what she is made of (as well as what we are made of) before we go trying to turn a kitten into a lion if you know what i mean, blue water crusier! we are still considering her as a pretty cushy crusier and thats about all for now. after the 6th i will ask hunter for the real poop! mahalo, jim
Henk - Now I'm Confused
Henk, Just when I thought I was beginning to understand some of the forces on a sail boat, I'm confused again. I'm no engineer, but I thought a B&R rig with the spreaders swept back 30 degrees was as strong as a conventional rig (e.g. the three legged stool analogy and all those radio towers that you see with three rather than four guy wires. Also, Brian Toss - the rigger- has apparently said B&R is a good offshore rig) I thought going downwind the load was spread over the two shrounds on a B&R rig as compared to a single backstay. What purpose then does a baby stay serve in this case. When I'm sailing close to the wind I thought (perhaps incorrectly) that the load was carried by the headstay and the windward shroud and in this case I could see the benefit of a baby stay as added insurance. Where am I going wrong? Peter Milne S/V Blue Heron P.S. I would be remiss if I didn't thank you for sharing your knowledge and experience on this site through your frequent and articulate posts.
Henk, Just when I thought I was beginning to understand some of the forces on a sail boat, I'm confused again. I'm no engineer, but I thought a B&R rig with the spreaders swept back 30 degrees was as strong as a conventional rig (e.g. the three legged stool analogy and all those radio towers that you see with three rather than four guy wires. Also, Brian Toss - the rigger- has apparently said B&R is a good offshore rig) I thought going downwind the load was spread over the two shrounds on a B&R rig as compared to a single backstay. What purpose then does a baby stay serve in this case. When I'm sailing close to the wind I thought (perhaps incorrectly) that the load was carried by the headstay and the windward shroud and in this case I could see the benefit of a baby stay as added insurance. Where am I going wrong? Peter Milne S/V Blue Heron P.S. I would be remiss if I didn't thank you for sharing your knowledge and experience on this site through your frequent and articulate posts.
Peter, I should have been more specific
First of all, thanks for the kind words. Secondly, my personal opinion is that the B&R rig is fine for offshore work and excellent for two-way Tradewind sailing (what one looses in downwind convenience is more than made up by upwind performance). Rather, my comment was meant to emphasize the importance of a redundant forestay when taking a B&R rig offshore, particularly a fractional B&R rig with pre-bent mast, such as "Rivendel II" has. This opinion stems from the following experience: In 1997 "Rivendel II" -- already equipped with an inner forestay -- needed to be dry-berthed in Kona and to my dismay I was asked to remove the forestay in order to fit the Travelift. (I should have insisted to have them take us out stern first so I could have disconnected the backstay and taken the pole-mounted radar down, instead. However, everyone else seemed to do it, thus I figured it must be doable. So, after sliding the furling drum up and away, I started slacking off the forestay, while making sure to slack off the backstay, uppers, intermediates and lowers at the same time (as well as the topping lift). After bringing both running backstays to the foredeck to fasten them tightly to the toerail I started hammering out the clevis pin attaching the forestay to the heavy bow eye. To my dismay, the entire mast slammed back by 10-15 degrees as soon as the pin came out and would probablyly have come crashing down if not stopped by the inner stay and the running backs. This made me realize how strong the combined force of the (partially slackened) shrouds was in my B&R rig and convinced me that, without a strong inner stay, I would never stand a chance to prevent the mast from coming down in case the forestay ever were to break underway. Passage 42 owner Paul Cossman (who occasionally posts on this board) appears to have lost his mast in that manner on the way back from New Zealand to the USA (via Hawaii, if I remember well) and may have additional comments to make about this issue. Season's Greetings Flying Dutchman
First of all, thanks for the kind words. Secondly, my personal opinion is that the B&R rig is fine for offshore work and excellent for two-way Tradewind sailing (what one looses in downwind convenience is more than made up by upwind performance). Rather, my comment was meant to emphasize the importance of a redundant forestay when taking a B&R rig offshore, particularly a fractional B&R rig with pre-bent mast, such as "Rivendel II" has. This opinion stems from the following experience: In 1997 "Rivendel II" -- already equipped with an inner forestay -- needed to be dry-berthed in Kona and to my dismay I was asked to remove the forestay in order to fit the Travelift. (I should have insisted to have them take us out stern first so I could have disconnected the backstay and taken the pole-mounted radar down, instead. However, everyone else seemed to do it, thus I figured it must be doable. So, after sliding the furling drum up and away, I started slacking off the forestay, while making sure to slack off the backstay, uppers, intermediates and lowers at the same time (as well as the topping lift). After bringing both running backstays to the foredeck to fasten them tightly to the toerail I started hammering out the clevis pin attaching the forestay to the heavy bow eye. To my dismay, the entire mast slammed back by 10-15 degrees as soon as the pin came out and would probablyly have come crashing down if not stopped by the inner stay and the running backs. This made me realize how strong the combined force of the (partially slackened) shrouds was in my B&R rig and convinced me that, without a strong inner stay, I would never stand a chance to prevent the mast from coming down in case the forestay ever were to break underway. Passage 42 owner Paul Cossman (who occasionally posts on this board) appears to have lost his mast in that manner on the way back from New Zealand to the USA (via Hawaii, if I remember well) and may have additional comments to make about this issue. Season's Greetings Flying Dutchman
inner forstay
We have a 430 with an inner forstay. I am the second owner but it is my undertanding it was factory installed. It connects to the forward deck of course but the plate has a ring under the deck as well which is connected to a piece of riggin, under tension, to a chain plate in the hull under the anchor chain locker. Remove the plastic caps and four screws to the housing above the forward head and that section of wall comes out and gives you access to the lacker, windlass and in our case base for the inner stay. Good luck. Please send more info on your trip and plans. We are new owners as well who split our time between the mainland and Wailea and want to sail over as well. If you are going to honolulu the new ko olina marine is really nice, has space, and the rates are pretty good if you are maakai Monty mandm@vandermaylawfirm.com
We have a 430 with an inner forstay. I am the second owner but it is my undertanding it was factory installed. It connects to the forward deck of course but the plate has a ring under the deck as well which is connected to a piece of riggin, under tension, to a chain plate in the hull under the anchor chain locker. Remove the plastic caps and four screws to the housing above the forward head and that section of wall comes out and gives you access to the lacker, windlass and in our case base for the inner stay. Good luck. Please send more info on your trip and plans. We are new owners as well who split our time between the mainland and Wailea and want to sail over as well. If you are going to honolulu the new ko olina marine is really nice, has space, and the rates are pretty good if you are maakai Monty mandm@vandermaylawfirm.com
I did the passage in 94
My Gulf 32 was pretty well equiped already (radar, loran etc) but I put a lot of extras on. Sideband, weatherfaxe, GPS, solar panels, windmill generator, inner forestay, running backs, storm jib, storm trysail etc. The trip great after the scary part (single handing works on your imagination a lot). Jim- if you want to come out sometime on my boat in Honolulu, we I can share what I know and try some things. I would absolutely try to get a weather fax. Without it I would probably have run into a hurricane that I could see on the fax and stay up north until it had passed. You can e-mail though www. Islandgirlproducts.com (yes- I ended up out here in HI!) Jim W
My Gulf 32 was pretty well equiped already (radar, loran etc) but I put a lot of extras on. Sideband, weatherfaxe, GPS, solar panels, windmill generator, inner forestay, running backs, storm jib, storm trysail etc. The trip great after the scary part (single handing works on your imagination a lot). Jim- if you want to come out sometime on my boat in Honolulu, we I can share what I know and try some things. I would absolutely try to get a weather fax. Without it I would probably have run into a hurricane that I could see on the fax and stay up north until it had passed. You can e-mail though www. Islandgirlproducts.com (yes- I ended up out here in HI!) Jim W
43
I think Peter's boat was the Hunter 43 and not a Passage 42. The story I hear is that he lost the forstay.
I think Peter's boat was the Hunter 43 and not a Passage 42. The story I hear is that he lost the forstay.
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