A big step down - updated

whodathunk · Apr 22, 2013

This might be a good time to think about how and where you'll be using this boat. Many lakes in Socal are 'sunrise-to-sunset' only and do not allow overnighting. The larger Norcal lakes that do, often regulate it as "camping" with permits and reservations required.
The developing issues with invasive species in the southern half of the state are likely to make trailering water ballasted boats, from lake to lake, far less convenient than it has been.
It sounds like you're really looking more at bay or coastal locations, so one question might be, "which boat is best in salt water"?

rocksculpter · Apr 22, 2013

or maybe a step up

I'm a bit opinionated since I have had a Norsea for the last 25 years. I started with a Venture 25 (Macgregor) and did the Florida keys, Dry Tortugas , Bahamas and San Juan islands which included a brush with hurricane Allen. If you're going to putz around the lake, the Keys or the San Juans, any small sailboat can be fun. Like camping out. Some Norsea folks year round cruise in faraway places, I stick to the Northwest and my longest trip has been six months so far.

I choose the Norsea because it's a go anywhere boat that can take more that you can handle, safely. It's kind of a big deal to transport but do-able. Or, you can sail it anywhere. Occasionally one shows up on the market that needs TLC for a reasonable price. A new one lists at $150,000 and I've seen them go for $20,000 or less.

Barry

Roger10081 · Apr 22, 2013

We have a Jeanneau Tonic 23. It has been a great boat for us for smaller and Large lake sailing for weekend or a couple of weeks at a time. Has a swing keel and with 23" draft (if you don't load it too much has been great.

The photo is in very light winds towing a passenger from the ladder..
Sleeps 4 with 5' 10" + head room enclosed head nav table, two burner stove and ice box.

Real Fun sails were from a J-24 altered. Used on ocean in Europe..

John M. McCall · Apr 22, 2013

mdsdurango said:
Update; All day at the computer yesterday digging deep into pocket cruisers.
First - I want a boat to keep for a very long time. I like to think that I am simple enough to repress the need for a bigger boat. Someone on another thread recommended being a “boat bum”. I like this idea a lot. Mainly because I’m poor. OK not really poor, but poor enough to know I can’t have an Alden 54. I'll ride on someone elses big boat - or rent one if and when I need it. I turn 60 this month. My house is paid off. I've some money in the bank. $25,000.00 is no doubt a good chunk of change - but over the next , , remainder of my life, I hope to get in some good sailing in as many and as distant locations as my heart desires. Eventually I can leave a great little boat to my sailor nephew. Fifteen years or more of simple sailing make the investment seem worthwhile.
So I have settled on 18’ as a good size for me and unless I can find a one owner used in excellent condition I see new as my best option. BTW, this will be my fourth boat. Ownership is not entirely new to me. My final boat needs to be small enough to barley notice when being towed, big enough to sleep in for two or three nights (two bodies at most), and strong enough to be in blue(er) water.
One boat I discovered yesterday has a very strong cult following; the Montgomery 15 & 17. I like the 17 just for its size.
Compared to the Precision;
LOA; P – 17’5”, M – 17’2”…
LWL; P – 15’5”, M – 15’10”
Beam; P – 7’5”, M – 7’4”
Draft; P – 1’6”, M – 1’9” Board up
Draft; P – 4’3” M – 3’ Board down
Disp; P – 1100 lbs M – 1600 lbs
Ballast; P – 350 lbs M – 600 lbs
Sails; P – 145 sf M – 154 sf
It seems to me that the Montgomery wins on several comps; shorter boat / longer water line, shorter boat / greater sail area, greater ballast weight for stability. But I’m not confident in my conclusions. I’m asking for advice.

New these boats are very similar in price with trailer. The Montgomery’s have a very strong contingency that I don't find with the Precisions
They are built in southern California, close to where I would like to land in another five years.
And they are damn cute.

So?

Thanks as always!

I'm surprised no one suggested you consider a Seaward 23 or 25. Either would suit your needs. They draw about 2 feet and are available with an inboard diesel. The 25 has an enclosed head, hot and cold pressurized water system and wheel steering available. They are sturdy boats with a plumb bow and CDI furling jib. You might l;ook at what is available.
John M.

sloopy · Apr 22, 2013

Hi,
I don't know why you limit yourself to a vessel under 20' as I've had my Cape Dory 25 for about 10 years now. It originall went from Seattle to Alaska, then down to San Diego when I piurchased her. After this I've taken her down the Baja Pacific Coast and then in October of last year went over 1,000 miles from San Carlos, Mexico across the Sea of Cortez to Baja, then down to La Paz. From there I went across the Sea again to Matzatlan then finally ended up in Puerto Vallarta where I am now. It took me 4 months of some of the best sailing I've ever enjoyed. I was solo all the way except for the last leg from Mazatlan to PV. I'll be bringing her back to California soon on her custom made trailer to sell her there. I hit a bad storm off Isla Isabella and got pooped twice but she handled everything like a champ. Of course, the boat is loaded with everything imaginable, Radar, GPS, windvane, auto-pilot, SSB ham and marine radio, etc, etc. I found that even with a crew member (who had never sailed before) that there was plenty of room for both of us. Just a thought after reading the comments on the other boats. They are all good vessels but for a really strong, blue water pocket cruiser, I'd still go with the Cape Dory 25...my opinion.
Thanks and Good Lucj,
Sloopy Dana

D.L.Bland · Apr 22, 2013

I have 2 Bristol 26 masthead rigged sloops, one of them has to go says the admiral, so I'll sell the newer nicer one as the older 1968 needs me , no one but me would want her, now however the 1974 Bristol 26 is in fine shape on lake Eire in Ohio. she is quite trailerable, I have the 1968 on the only trailer I have but here are plenty of trailers for sail in Ohio area.

sailingandsuch · Apr 22, 2013

durange,

The Cape Dory, while I'm sure is a fabulous boat doesn't look very trailerable friendly. Yea, it may be trailerable but it's not easily trailerable or it doesn't look that way. For one person I bet it's an undertaking to get that thing in and out.

The weight of a CD 25 is 4000lbs (the CD 25D is over 5,000lbs), then you add a trailer and your talking some serious weight (something I don't think I'd enjoy pulling with a V8). Then you have to pull it out of the water and up a slippery ramp.....

I checked the Google Images search and found some on trailers. Half of the trailers were not designed to be backed down a ramp but instead were for launching with a lift. A truly trailerable boat you probably wouldn't see hardly any that someone wants to keep on trailer that they have to launch it with a lift.

My first sailboat was a Macgregor 25, much less boat than the CD25 for sure. I found myself not going sailing as often and not wanting to do short daysails because I dreaded rigging that big 'ole thing and derigging it when I was done. Now with my M17 it's not near the chore to launch and retrieve the little gem.

I think while the CD 25 is a great boat, it's not very trailerable friendly if you intend to do some daysails or the like.

mdcoats · Apr 22, 2013

Nice mid size sailboat for you

I am 70 years old and without much $$. Much less than you. I just bought a nice 23' O'Day at an online charity auction for less than $500. I had to fix it up a bit and replace the standing and running rigging, buy a new OB and a used trailer that I had modified. Total investment including new electronics, OB and trailer was less than $8000 and she looks like she just rolled off the factory floor. True I will need some help getting the mast up and down but aside from that, I have rigged her for single hand sailing.

I can tow her with my Hybrid 6 cyl. car just fine. Total gross weight is about 3500 lbs. Don't consider too small of boat if you want to spend a night or two aboard her. I have all the conveniences of home on my O'Day including hot/cold pressure water, 120VAC & 12VDC electrical systems, a ham radio, inverter and more, all brand new.

Best of luck in your hunting.
Regards, Mike

mdsdurango said:
Update; All day at the computer yesterday digging deep into pocket cruisers.
First - I want a boat to keep for a very long time. I like to think that I am simple enough to repress the need for a bigger boat. Someone on another thread recommended being a “boat bum”. I like this idea a lot. Mainly because I’m poor. OK not really poor, but poor enough to know I can’t have an Alden 54. I'll ride on someone elses big boat - or rent one if and when I need it. I turn 60 this month. My house is paid off. I've some money in the bank. $25,000.00 is no doubt a good chunk of change - but over the next , , remainder of my life, I hope to get in some good sailing in as many and as distant locations as my heart desires. Eventually I can leave a great little boat to my sailor nephew. Fifteen years or more of simple sailing make the investment seem worthwhile.
So I have settled on 18’ as a good size for me and unless I can find a one owner used in excellent condition I see new as my best option. BTW, this will be my fourth boat. Ownership is not entirely new to me. My final boat needs to be small enough to barley notice when being towed, big enough to sleep in for two or three nights (two bodies at most), and strong enough to be in blue(er) water.
One boat I discovered yesterday has a very strong cult following; the Montgomery 15 & 17. I like the 17 just for its size.
Compared to the Precision;
LOA; P – 17’5”, M – 17’2”…
LWL; P – 15’5”, M – 15’10”
Beam; P – 7’5”, M – 7’4”
Draft; P – 1’6”, M – 1’9” Board up
Draft; P – 4’3” M – 3’ Board down
Disp; P – 1100 lbs M – 1600 lbs
Ballast; P – 350 lbs M – 600 lbs
Sails; P – 145 sf M – 154 sf
It seems to me that the Montgomery wins on several comps; shorter boat / longer water line, shorter boat / greater sail area, greater ballast weight for stability. But I’m not confident in my conclusions. I’m asking for advice.

New these boats are very similar in price with trailer. The Montgomery’s have a very strong contingency that I don't find with the Precisions
They are built in southern California, close to where I would like to land in another five years.
And they are damn cute.

So?

Thanks as always!

AnchorDragger · Apr 22, 2013

Get the right trailer too

Over the last 6 years I've owned three pocket cruisers. First was a MacGregor 26D water ballast with dagger board which weighed about 2200 dry and was easy to launch and retrieve. But raising and lowering the mast was a hassle and it was too light to fare well in winds over 10 or 12 mph. It had plenty of room inside. It did not require a trailer tongue extension.

The second pocket cruiser was a Catalina 250 Wing Keel with 3.5 foot draft. It was a comfortable overnighter. But in my opinion it is too heavy at 4200 pounds empty to be called trailerable. You need a trailer tongue extension to launch or retrieve it because of the draft. Same mast raising and lowering hassle as the MacGregor. It handled winds over 10 or 12 better than the MacGregor but not well.

The third boat is more of a racer but does have sleeping accomodations for two. That's a Wavelength 24. It is 2500 pounds empty so it's marginally trailerable. It does require a long trailer tongue extension due to 4.5 foot draft of the fin keel. It handles winds up to 20 mph easily if you use the right size sails. And with a PHRF of about 159 it is slightly faster than a J-24. It's the same hassle with mast raising and lowering as the first two only more so because it has a keel stepped mast.

The point of all this is that 25 feet is about the max to be considered trailerable. And if the boat has a draft of more than a couple of feet, when configured for loading on a trailer, you will need a trailer tongue extension. Strap launching is a time consuming and dangerous alternative.

plugugly · Apr 22, 2013

17 montgomery

buying the wrong boat is like marrying the wrong girl, if your heart says Montgomery 17, listen to it, read the minutiae, know the pros and cons, then buy the love of your life, and a beauty she is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

sdstef · Apr 22, 2013

Look into an old oday 25. I have the shoaldraft with centerboard. The head room is about 5'6" or so. I am 6'1" and it is ok for a couple of nights. It has a v-berth that is big enough for two, two settees, and about a 7' coffin berth on the port side. I have an alcohol stove, two sinks, and a pretty big icebox. A fold down table and a portapot. I paid about 3k, with a honda9.9. And a trailer. Also bbq, cruising spinnaker, and some extra head sails and roller furling. I did put a few k into it but still I could sell it for more than I put into it. Plus it sails like it is much bigger. Look around it is a buyers market.

skipper66 · Apr 22, 2013

Consider an O'Day 22. They sleep 4 but really two comfortably. Weight is under 3,000 lbs, and one or two people can step the mast pretty easily.

Good luck and fair breezes!
Skip Soden

TLW · Apr 22, 2013

One other point (although I see my 1st post in this thread has been deleted for some reason) on the P-18 / M-17 comparison: The Montgomery centerboard encroaches in the cabin area, Precision does not. Precision has 4 opening ports (Lewmar) in addition to the 2 hatches, Montgomery has fixed windows.

sawfish · Apr 22, 2013

There's always the Starboard Slipper 17 or Seaward Fox in this range,too,for that under 20' class.
I have a Slipper-it's easy to trailer and rig,even for an afternoon sail.There's always somebody inquiring about
the stout little boat at the ramp...

moehorenfeldt · Apr 22, 2013

I spent considerable time researching a "best" trailer able boat, that still sails well, and could be trailered behind my 2009 Dodge Caliber. I bought a 1993 MacGregor 26S at the New Anchorage in Colorado, (great people to deal with, by the way) last October and brought it back to Toronto, where I'm keeping it at Scarborough Bluffs Sailing Club, a trailer-sailors' paradise, on Lake Ontario. I wanted a boat big enough to handle a crowd, in the cockpit, and could sleep a couple easily, with all their "stuff".

I'm giving up a 1981 Cherubini designed Hunter 33, with fridge and shower, so you could say, I'm downsizing!

Anyone want a great 33 footer?

tbsiii · Apr 23, 2013

Precision 21, Great boat!

I tow my Precision 21 with a Toyota Highlander Hybrid to Rhode Island and Florida from Pittsburgh. No problem. The boat is solid, sails well, sets up easily with a nice trailer mast raising system. Big enough to have a potty, bimini, bunks, cooler, sink with faucet. Very comfortable. Mine is a 2003 that I bought 2 years ago from an owner who took great care of it. Very well made boat.

[FONT=Arial said:
mdsdurango[/FONT];1019036]Update; All day at the computer yesterday digging deep into pocket cruisers.
First - I want a boat to keep for a very long time. I like to think that I am simple enough to repress the need for a bigger boat. Someone on another thread recommended being a “boat bum”. I like this idea a lot. Mainly because I’m poor. OK not really poor, but poor enough to know I can’t have an Alden 54. I'll ride on someone elses big boat - or rent one if and when I need it. I turn 60 this month. My house is paid off. I've some money in the bank. $25,000.00 is no doubt a good chunk of change - but over the next , , remainder of my life, I hope to get in some good sailing in as many and as distant locations as my heart desires. Eventually I can leave a great little boat to my sailor nephew. Fifteen years or more of simple sailing make the investment seem worthwhile.
So I have settled on 18’ as a good size for me and unless I can find a one owner used in excellent condition I see new as my best option. BTW, this will be my fourth boat. Ownership is not entirely new to me. My final boat needs to be small enough to barley notice when being towed, big enough to sleep in for two or three nights (two bodies at most), and strong enough to be in blue(er) water.
One boat I discovered yesterday has a very strong cult following; the Montgomery 15 & 17. I like the 17 just for its size.
Compared to the Precision;
LOA; P – 17’5”, M – 17’2”…
LWL; P – 15’5”, M – 15’10”
Beam; P – 7’5”, M – 7’4”
Draft; P – 1’6”, M – 1’9” Board up
Draft; P – 4’3” M – 3’ Board down
Disp; P – 1100 lbs M – 1600 lbs
Ballast; P – 350 lbs M – 600 lbs
Sails; P – 145 sf M – 154 sf
It seems to me that the Montgomery wins on several comps; shorter boat / longer water line, shorter boat / greater sail area, greater ballast weight for stability. But I’m not confident in my conclusions. I’m asking for advice.

New these boats are very similar in price with trailer. The Montgomery’s have a very strong contingency that I don't find with the Precisions
They are built in southern California, close to where I would like to land in another five years.
And they are damn cute.

So?

Thanks as always!

Brian S · Apr 24, 2013

For new construction trailerable mini-cruisers, I vote for the Sage 17 or the West Wight Potter Voyager 20 as far as new boats go.

Jerry Montgomery was able to tweak many things on the Sage 17, which I think makes for a better boat than the Montgomery 17. It's a fractional rig, rather than masthead, so that makes singlehanded cruising a bit easier. It also has a very open V-berth that's easy to climb in and out of. 2 quarter seats that allow upright sitting headroom in case you are rained in the cabin. Lighter weight from a carbon fiber deck and cabin layup allows less ballast to make a stiffer boat. I've climbed around in one several times at the Annapolis boat show, and I love them.

As for the West Wight Potter 19, there are two versions right now, but they only show the original one on the web site. The original setup has a lifting keel, and compression post. The resulting trunk and post split the interior and make moving around a bit more difficult. On the Voyager 20, they have made a ballasted stub keel and centerboard like Precision, Sage, O'day 192/222. They have also incorporated an arch into the cabin top, eliminating the compression post. Finally, they have moved the galley from a split port/stb'd config, to all on the stb'd side. The result is a very open interior plan that's easy to move around in, and can even accommodate a table. I think it might be a bit stiffer as a result of more ballast in the stub keel, but don't quote me on that. Again, I have crawled around inside the new Voyager prototype at Annapolis, and I thought it was a winning design.

I always thought I'd eventually get a Precision 18, but I think it's more like camping in a backpacker tent. I find the quarter berths are somewhat low, so you always feel like you're on the floor. When my O'day 192 came on the market, I was very impressed how much more cabin-like it felt down below, compared to the P18, because the quarter berths and v-berth were higher than the P18. I'm hoping to get some good camping on the hook in the 192 this summer, so hopefully my opinion won't change. Also the P18 strikes me as being very sprightly, and somewhat tender, slightly more like a ballasted dinghy in feel, though not excessively so. I know some P18 owners that are a bit afraid of the way they like to heel, but that's a failure to trust the boat and trust the ballast. It's been an adjustment for me to go from centerboard dinghies to a ballasted boat - I have to remind myself that it's ok to heel, and she'll round up. Whereas in the dinghies, I'm makin' sure I don't capsize

Hope my opinions help,
Brian

A big step down - updated

.

.

.

.

Attachments

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.