Looking at buying a C22..

[Leeward Rail]

Hello all,

I'm looking at buying a C22, and would love some advice from people who actually own them.

Current options are a mk1 and "new style" mk1.

The "new style" boat has a single axle trailer with no brakes.
It's currently 1,400 miles away.
Once it's here, I'll install electric brakes. Possibly a second axle one day.
The trailer was recently rebuilt, has new tires, and looks in good shape.
I would repack the bearings before I tow it.


The 1970's mk1 has a dual axle trailer with brakes.
It's half the distance away, but it's the older model and comes with a smaller motor, and no furler. (unlikes the other boat)


So my initial questions....

I'd be towing either boat home with a Dodge Ram 1500, 5.2litre (318 for us older folks) 2WD truck.
Eventually I plan on using a Dodge Dakota 4x4 V6 to haul the boat


Initial Questions:

1) What is your opinons about a loaded C22 on a trailer without brakes behind a truck ?
I would like to be able to haul it anywhere I wish.
Can I at least get it home reasonably safely across flatlands ?

2) Any advantage to 2 axles ? As I understand it, most 2 axle trailers you see with these boats, are simply 2 lighter axles instead of 1 heavy one. Which would mean that when you have a problem with one wheel on a dual axle trailer, you still need to deal with it asap on the road.
I was leaning towards a dual axle trailer, in the belief that, if i got a flat on a gravel road for example, it would be easier to deal with.

3) which version of the mk1 do you prefer for spending a weekend "camping" on it ?

4) what's the usual price for a furler and having the headsail modified to fit thr furler ? Looks like $500 for a furler ?


Thanks for any advice !


Depending on your answers I'll have a bunch of other questions.

 

[CloudDiver]

I tow with a 2009 Chevy Silverado 5.4 liter. You'll have no problem towing either boat/trailer combo with either truck, they just aren't that heavy. I did A LOT of work refitting my galvanized tandem axle trailer (it cost more than the boat!), and I have yet to install brakes on the trailer. I towed it 90 miles home without incident. I don't condone trailering with no brakes as most states have laws that anything above 1500 lbs must have brakes on at least one axle... but you will be just fine without brakes as long as you don't brake suddenly or really hard.

For the boat, get the 'new style mk 1' because it has the pop-up. If you do any camping out at all you will thank me later. The original mk 1 does not have the pop-top, so no head room.

You're in the ball park for a new furler. A CDI roller furler is very popular on these boats and generally lists new for about $550. The #6 luff tape conversion for your headsail will run between $125 and $175 depending on your sail-loft (so I'm told, I've not had it done).

 

[CaptDon01]

1,400 miles away is a LONG way, so your trip is 2,800 miles. The cost of fuel, motels, and meals all adds to your cost of the boat. Not knowing the condition of the boat, sails, trailer, outboard, etc, thats a long way to travel. Did they send you recent photos? When we were boat shopping, people were reluctant to include recent photos on their ads because of the current condition. We passed on several boats that had great ads and nice photos, and the boats ended up being junk, so buyer beware. Where do you live? There might be a C-22 fleet in your area, and someone knowledgeable in C-22's to point out problems, and might be able to determine the real condition of the boat. Determine what your plans are for the useage of the boat and buy the best boat you can afford. Do you plan on racing? cruising? family onboard? inland lake, or the gulf, or the coast? I've had both tandem axle trailers and single axle trailers. Advantages to both. Trailer tires never wear out, they time out. So tire replacement on a tandem axle trailer is double. Yes they pull nicely. But, a quality single axle trailer properly set up pulls beautifully,(both our C-22's have Trail-Rite trailers. We've pulled our C-22 on a single axle trailer over 10,000 miles in the past 2 years, and we plan on towing her 10,000-12,000 more miles this year. Yes, you'll need brakes. I don't know any state that would allow a C-22 with a trailer, to be legally pulled without brakes, but I could be wrong. I would suspect you won't find a C-22 sitting on a trailer that was less than 3,000 Lbs. We tow with a Dodge 1500 quad-cab Ram with the small V-8, and it does fine. We had a Dodge Dakota with a V-6 when we had our 18' bow rider. No brakes, and the boat and trailer was somewhere around 3,600 Lbs. Besides from being illegal,(no brakes for the weight), in a panic stop the truck would easily slide. We purchased the Dodge Ram we now have, and it was still illegal, but pulled much better and stopped without sliding. We have surge brakes on both our C-22's, never had electric brakes, and the trailer shop didn't recommend installing them when we up-graded to disc brakes on our MK-II C-22 trailer. But we launch 95% of the time in salt water, so corrosion is always a threat.

Lot's of GREAT C-22's for sale out there, and sorry to say, there are some one elses problems for sale also. It's had to say specifically, there are just so many variables. Age, model, swing keel, fixed keel, been maintained, been sitting for years, is the boat clean, or is it moldy and full of leaves and filthy? If it's filthy when you show up to look at the boat, you might assume they probably didn't use it much, or maintain it properly. But it could be a diamond in the rough, just never know.

Good luck in your search. You're at least looking for the right boat! :dance:

Don

 

[Leeward Rail]

CloudDiver: Great info.
It's the "don't brake hard" i'm worried about.
I don't condone hauling without brakes either. Nothing more scary than when the trailer tries to push you downhill into an intersection because the road is slippery or when someone cuts you off.



I'll have to look up the weight of the truck to get an idea if the boat and trailer could push it around. I'd move all the extra gear into the back of the truck to make things better.

good info about the pop top. I had assumed it was simply an option on the earlier boats.

CaptDon01: I don't see the trip as a huge distance actually. I usually drive that to get to the coast to visit relatives. Mind you, I've never hauled a trailer that far. I'd normally do it in 1,400 miles in 2 days, but with an unfamiliar trailer i figure I'll need 6 - 7 days to do the total 2,800 miles with prep time for the boat.

Unfortunately, there's isn't much available locally when it comes to trailerable keelboats. There are lots of bigger boats and many dinghys.
For some reason, not many C22 type boats in decent shape.
I seem to remember seeing a few Chrysler 22's, a few water ballast Hunters and Macgregors etc. I'd consider an early Mac, but the new ones aren't sailboats IMO.

There are 2 Oday 22's for sale near me but I'm leaning towards C22 so far.
See thread---> http://forums.sbo.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=170005

The newer C22 has a bunch of new gear and the swing keel cable setup was repaired a couple years ago. My only issue so far, is the distance away and the lack of brakes on the trailer.
I was thinking I might spend a day installing electric drum brakes before I haul it home.
Disc brakes would be nice, but I don't think I can justify the cost of an electric hydraulic actuator + disks, when electric drums will do the job.

I have 2 options for checking out the boat. One is to have a sailor friend who lives near it, go check it out. The other, IMO better option, is to hire a surveyor. With the surveyor I get a professional inspection and papers that are good for insurance records.

As to which boat to buy ?
We want a trailerable sailboat that we can use for semi-confortable "boat camping", that actually sails well, and isn't a safety hazard when the wind pipes up.

FWIW: Personally I'd prefer a steel or aluminum hulled cutter, for a crew of 2, that's built like a tank, has more storage than berths, with a diesel that's actually accessable, and keeps it's crew warm and dry in high latitudes. But that will have to wait for my wife to agree to take the leap. lol In the meantime, she figures the small boat is a good way to combine our passion for sailing and wilderness camping.

EDIT: I finally found the legal info
Looking at the regs, the current owners likely don't officially need them because it might be under the 3000lb Gross limit.

Our limit here is 2000 lbs so I'll need to have them locally. Not that I wouldn't have them anyhow.

I was thinking of trying to avoid spending extra days there, modifying the trailer, but the more I think about it, the more i think I'll install brakes when I get there.

 

[CloudDiver]

When it comes to trailer brakes you gotta understand the difference between an electric actuator and surge brakes. The electric actuator plugs into your trailer wire harness, when you hit the hit the brake pedal it activates and electric solenoid that pushes the hydraulic brake arm. These are sensitive to salt water.
Surge brakes have 'switch' (for lack of a better term) in the trailer tongue. When the force of the trailer stopping pushes the tongue into the hitch ball it applies pressure to the switch and actuates the brakes. This system is better in salt water because you don't have the sensitive electrical connection. Also, disc brakes do way better in salt water because it easier to rinse them off, where drum brakes get water trapped inside the drum and rot from the inside out. I believe you are in fresh water anyway, but food for thought.

I found eTrailer.com is a good source for trailer parts. Pretty fair prices and they have excellent general info and tech tips. You can learn a lot there and then shop prices around the net. BTW, pretty much any state requires brakes on only on axle up to a certain weight (like 7500 lbs or something).

 

[$tingy Sailor]

I highly doubt that boat and trailer combo is under 3,000#. It won't be a lot over but it likely will be over. Our first generation (lighter) C-22 with Trail Rite trailer without outboard motor tipped the scales at 3,220#. Add an outboard, fuel, water, gear, and you're pushing 3,500# or more with a later generation boat.

Be sure to read your state regulations carefully. In some states, it not just the gross weight of the load, it's also the load as a percentage of the tow vehicle weight. Here in Washington, the limit is 40% or 3,000# so brakes are the only sane solution for towing 80%+ with my 4,000# Tacoma V6.

 

[Leeward Rail]

Clouddiver: Yeah I'm in freshwater. The reason I prefer electric is that it's proportional, unlike the surge brakes that actuate at a preset amount, and only when pressure is on the coupler.
Need 10% brakes? need 90% brakes? need to activate the trailer brakes independently of the tow vehicle ? Surge brakes can't do that.

it's the "electric over hydraulic" brakes setup that intrigues me though.
Better braking, it's proportional, and no wiring at the hubs. The only issue I see keeping the electric hydraulic actuator water tight on the tongue of the trailer. At least it's not guaranteed to be immersed when launched. I've never seen one, or know anyone who has one, but they look like the best solution.


After repairing cars for a living, I'd be willing to bet that 99.9% of brake problems on trailers are due to lack of maintenance. How many trailers, both boat and other, do you see with broken axles because the owners didn't do the maintenance ? Those same people are pulling their boats out without rinsing the brakes every time.

I have a buddy in B.C. who has electric drums on his dual axle fishing boat trailer, and he hasn't had a problem in 4 years of constant use, electrically or mechanically. I'll definitely be calling him to see what method he uses to protect and rinse them. At the very least i would paint the non-friction surface of the drums like I've done with custom cars.

 

[Leeward Rail]

I highly doubt that boat and trailer combo is under 3,000#. It won't be a lot over but it likely will be over. Our first generation (lighter) C-22 with Trail Rite trailer without outboard motor tipped the scales at 3,220#. Add an outboard, fuel, water, gear, and you're pushing 3,500# or more with a later generation boat.

Be sure to read your state regulations carefully. In some states, it not just the gross weight of the load, it's also the load as a percentage of the tow vehicle weight. Here in Washington, the limit is 40% or 3,000# so brakes are the only sane solution for towing 80%+ with my 4,000# Tacoma V6.

Good to know about the likely minimum weight. I suspected as much.

Percentage of tow vehicle weight is also used here.

IMO brakes are a no brainer.
I've used in cab brake controllers a few times to prevent things from getting ugly in bad road and weather conditions.

I owe my respect for trailers, to my dad.
I spent many summers as a kid in my dad's 72 station wagon towing a 1970 single axle, split rim, travel trailer made from timber and steel. He would contantly point out hazardous trailer rigs. The funny part is that the worst ones were usually pop-ups towed by a car with either the tongue almost on the road, or worse with negative tongue weight.

Towing is a quick way to get hurt if you don't do it right.

 

[Leeward Rail]

BTW Stingy... Nice blog. I'm reading the post about points of failure for the keel system.

EDIT: Stingy.. what year is your C22 ? The galley configuration looks like the older mk1 where the galley is on starboard side, the but the boat has a pop top ?

 

[$tingy Sailor]

It's a 1981, #10330.

 

[Leeward Rail]

So the early models did have pop tops or did you modify it ?

 

[$tingy Sailor]

Yes, some did. Don can probably recount their history and percentage manufactured. Don?

 

[Leeward Rail]

hmm.. here's one of the boats I'm looking into:

http://www.kijiji.ca/v-sailboat/edm...at/1054506425?enableSearchNavigationFlag=true

Almost looks like it has a pop top. Hard to tell from the photo with my inexperienced eye.

While that boat lacks the furler and $900 pop top cover that the other boat has, it has vinyl cushions, a full complement of sails, and a good trailer with brakes. it's also half the distance away.

 

[CloudDiver]

That looks (from the pictures) to be a great boat. Big plus points are the newer 5hp outboard, nice covers on cushions, sails looks great, good trailer, and overall cosmetic condition is good. You won't have a major resto on your hands, especially since the keel components were redone. That does not mean the keel won't need to be repainted, but I doubt being a fresh water boat it will need the treatment I had to do to mine. The overall boat just might need a good clean up and polish with Poly-glow.

It is a shot to the ribs that this boat isn't a pop-top. If my intent is to camp I wouldn't stop looking until you find one, you'll really appreciate the extra headroom it provides. The boat listed below is def not a pop top.

Ha Ha, I feel pretty silly now going into that explanation about trailer brake systems... You seem to know that stuff really well! I also tow a 21 for aluminum Toy-hauler. Its 3300 lbs dry, so with 2 race bikes, batteries, 40 gal of fresh water and gear it probably comes in around 5500 lbs. I have electric brakes on it with an in-cab controller. I've towed in some pretty bad winds and hills so I notice the additional safety factor they provide.

hmm.. here's one of the boats I'm looking into:

http://www.kijiji.ca/v-sailboat/edm...at/1054506425?enableSearchNavigationFlag=true

Almost looks like it has a pop top. Hard to tell from the photo with my inexperienced eye.

While that boat lacks the furler and $900 pop top cover that the other boat has, it has vinyl cushions, a full complement of sails, and a good trailer with brakes. it's also half the distance away.

 

[Leeward Rail]

race bikes ?? and the bass guitars in the other thread...
i'll probably stick around no matter which boat i get

no worries about explaining brakes. You never know who is on the other side of a keyboard initially. Considering how many dangerous trailer setups I've seen, it's probably better to jump in and make sure they have a clue.

 

[watercolors II]

When I look at the pictures very close, it looks like a pop top. I never owned an older 22 without the pop top so, you fellows can tell me if I’m correct. I see 3 levels to the cabin top with the first level above the windows where the teak handles are located, I see a second level next to the highest part of the cabin top the sliding companion way lid the 3 rd level, non-pop top models don’t have 3 levels to the cabin top?. This second level I see in this photo shows the line of separation between the cabin top and the lift top.

 

[CloudDiver]

You know, Watercolors might be right... I was looking at this pic and judging by the large horizontal space to starboard of the hatch slider rails (where you could run lines aft without space limits) it looked like a non-pop top. On second look that area does step down again to the hand rail, but the sunshine in the pic is washing it out.

I dunno, its worth the phone call to ask!

When I look at the pictures very close, it looks like a pop top. I never owned an older 22 without the pop top so, you fellows can tell me if I’m correct. I see 3 levels to the cabin top with the first level above the windows where the teak handles are located, I see a second level next to the highest part of the cabin top the sliding companion way lid the 3 rd level, non-pop top models don’t have 3 levels to the cabin top?. This second level I see in this photo shows the line of separation between the cabin top and the lift top.

 

[CloudDiver]

Yesh, race bikes... another obsession that empties my wallet (just what I need, lol!)

race bikes ?? and the bass guitars in the other thread...
i'll probably stick around no matter which boat i get

no worries about explaining brakes. You never know who is on the other side of a keyboard initially. Considering how many dangerous trailer setups I've seen, it's probably better to jump in and make sure they have a clue.

 

[Leeward Rail]

I already have a call in. we shall see..

 

[Fred Villiard]

Just one thing, not all trailer axles have the flanges to put brakes on. If the axle does not have them you won't be able to mount the brakes.