Some of you may remember my last post which was the account of my singlehanded Transatlantic crossing in a Hunter 34 last year. Well it looks like I'm heading back from the Med to Antigua in December but this time with my wife and son on board. For the first crossing I only used an ST4000+ autopilot to steer the boat which semed to manage fine even when things got a little rough. This crossing however involves much more downwind sailing where I feel a windvane self steering would be more suitable. I am having an inner forestay fitted to take a self tacking stay sail when reaching or storm jib when too windy.The idea is to pole out either sail on the inner forstay to starboard with the genoa on the original stay poled out to port and possibly a triple reefed main sheeted in hard to minimise rolling. My question is which windvane should I choose? The boat is a 1983 Hunter 34. I know very little about windvanes but I guess a unit with its own rudder would be more useful incase the boat rudder fails.The reason I mention this is because of a story in the British boating press this month of a boat that lost its rudder whilst crossing the altantic with the ARC and sank 1200 miles from St Lucia.The boat was a 2yr old Hunter Legend 450. Any advice would be much appreciated. Andrew
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Downwind ?
I was under the impression that windvanes were at their worst in following winds. Good work with the ST 4000, I have one on my 34 and it is a bugger, very intermittent but it has always been OK in following conditions! Best of luck.
I was under the impression that windvanes were at their worst in following winds. Good work with the ST 4000, I have one on my 34 and it is a bugger, very intermittent but it has always been OK in following conditions! Best of luck.
Advice
Sell the boat and buy an airline ticket. That boat is not designed for a trip like that. How far do you want to push your luck?
Sell the boat and buy an airline ticket. That boat is not designed for a trip like that. How far do you want to push your luck?
Hi Andrew, Cape Horn makes a very good...
wind steering vane. Simple and easy to use once it is set up. Contact Yves Gelinas at (800)227-4676, or e-mail at "mail@capehorn.com". The unit fits most all boats. Terry
wind steering vane. Simple and easy to use once it is set up. Contact Yves Gelinas at (800)227-4676, or e-mail at "mail@capehorn.com". The unit fits most all boats. Terry
Andrew... where in the Med?
hey Andrew... I have a Hunter 326 and was curious as to how you managed to get your ST4000+ to function so well for so long. I've been having problems, especially while running. I'm thinking of upgrading to a ST6001, if I can fit it in my budget.
) p.s.Where are you in the Med? I'm at the Cap d'Agde, near Beziers. p.p.s. I wouldn't worry too much about Daryl's advice... plenty of smaller ships sail from the Canaries to the Caribbean especially during the Trade Winds. But you know that, or you wouldn't have mentioned "December" in your msg. ) Bon vent Jef & *Pixie*
hey Andrew... I have a Hunter 326 and was curious as to how you managed to get your ST4000+ to function so well for so long. I've been having problems, especially while running. I'm thinking of upgrading to a ST6001, if I can fit it in my budget.
) p.s.Where are you in the Med? I'm at the Cap d'Agde, near Beziers. p.p.s. I wouldn't worry too much about Daryl's advice... plenty of smaller ships sail from the Canaries to the Caribbean especially during the Trade Winds. But you know that, or you wouldn't have mentioned "December" in your msg. ) Bon vent Jef & *Pixie*One concern in Bluewater..
I can't answer the windvane issue. I really admire your Bluewater travels.. Envy is more the word. This weekend I realized that my H34 has a critical construction issue which makes underway repair impossible. HAve you gone thru the boat and removed the false bottom/liner in every position in which a Thru hull part is installed? For instance.. transducers in the bilge pass thru the liner and the hull.. If they leak, impossible to reseal as impossible to reseal underway between the liner and hull. Same is true for: both sink drains, aft engine freshwater, head inlet and outlet. This weekend I loosened my knot sensor to attack a leak, and am now pulling the boat for reseal. I had never before thought about how this stinky liner impedes access to a hull.. kind of scary. In my case, have a leak of about 1 gallon per three minutes, 20 gallons per hour, 480 per day. Thankfully, I have a DC bilge pump and a 110VAC sump pump at the dock as backup. But my sense is that a few days at sea, and the DC bilge would wear out from pumping every 3 minutes.
I can't answer the windvane issue. I really admire your Bluewater travels.. Envy is more the word. This weekend I realized that my H34 has a critical construction issue which makes underway repair impossible. HAve you gone thru the boat and removed the false bottom/liner in every position in which a Thru hull part is installed? For instance.. transducers in the bilge pass thru the liner and the hull.. If they leak, impossible to reseal as impossible to reseal underway between the liner and hull. Same is true for: both sink drains, aft engine freshwater, head inlet and outlet. This weekend I loosened my knot sensor to attack a leak, and am now pulling the boat for reseal. I had never before thought about how this stinky liner impedes access to a hull.. kind of scary. In my case, have a leak of about 1 gallon per three minutes, 20 gallons per hour, 480 per day. Thankfully, I have a DC bilge pump and a 110VAC sump pump at the dock as backup. But my sense is that a few days at sea, and the DC bilge would wear out from pumping every 3 minutes.
Recommend Scanmar's AutoHelm windvane
The proposed set-up with wing-on-wing poled out jibs and a deeply reefed, nearly centered main to minimize rolling is a very good one for shorthanded downwind ocean sailing in combination with a windvane, as it allows you to steer seamlessly downwind over a 60 degree angle with DDW in the center and no risk of jibing. In fact, the wing-on-wing jib arrangement might be called the poor man's (or singlehander's or passagemaker's) cruising spinnaker. Of course, your old ST4000 will come in handy when there is insufficient wind as it can directly steer the vane mechanism with minimum force (and thus power consumption as well as wear and tear). Advantage of a windvane with relatively big, transom-hung auxiliary rudder is indeed redundancy (in case of main rudder loss) but also lengthened waterline (i.e. more stable tracking and heave-to) and greatly reduced wear and tear on the main steering system (all components).] We have used the same system since we bought Scanmar Marine's AutoHelm windvane 7 or 8 years ago. Since then we have put over 25,000 NM on it with relatively little upkeep. We decided on Scanmar as our windvane supplier since they make three different successful windvanes (including the renowned Monitor vane) and thus offer a real choice. Every single windvane manufacturer will tell you -- surprise, surprise -- that their vane is the best for you. (If you only have a hammer everything looks like a nail, right?). The AutoHelm has worked great. All parts are easy to replace (even with parts you manufacture yourself if necessary. Try that with an electromechanical or hydraulic windvane, particularly if the electronic control mechanism goes crazy...... (Therefore, many passagemakers carry at least two electromechanic or hydraulic vanes; one as a backup or -- once both are broken -- to cannibalize for parts). Finally, if you are making a long passage without room (or desire) for a generator, your windvane is the best insurance against power loss. IMHO power loss (through any number of possible scenarios) is the number 1 cause of vessels getting into trouble on a passage. Happened to us on our 94 California-Hawaii passage. A solar panel and wind- or watergenerator are always be able to keep your radio going, recharge your handtool batteries and allow you to use a small navigation light, no matter whatelse may happen. On the other hand, if you needed to power a strong autopilot, you would soon be handsteering instead. Fair winds and following seas. Flying Dutchman
The proposed set-up with wing-on-wing poled out jibs and a deeply reefed, nearly centered main to minimize rolling is a very good one for shorthanded downwind ocean sailing in combination with a windvane, as it allows you to steer seamlessly downwind over a 60 degree angle with DDW in the center and no risk of jibing. In fact, the wing-on-wing jib arrangement might be called the poor man's (or singlehander's or passagemaker's) cruising spinnaker. Of course, your old ST4000 will come in handy when there is insufficient wind as it can directly steer the vane mechanism with minimum force (and thus power consumption as well as wear and tear). Advantage of a windvane with relatively big, transom-hung auxiliary rudder is indeed redundancy (in case of main rudder loss) but also lengthened waterline (i.e. more stable tracking and heave-to) and greatly reduced wear and tear on the main steering system (all components).] We have used the same system since we bought Scanmar Marine's AutoHelm windvane 7 or 8 years ago. Since then we have put over 25,000 NM on it with relatively little upkeep. We decided on Scanmar as our windvane supplier since they make three different successful windvanes (including the renowned Monitor vane) and thus offer a real choice. Every single windvane manufacturer will tell you -- surprise, surprise -- that their vane is the best for you. (If you only have a hammer everything looks like a nail, right?). The AutoHelm has worked great. All parts are easy to replace (even with parts you manufacture yourself if necessary. Try that with an electromechanical or hydraulic windvane, particularly if the electronic control mechanism goes crazy...... (Therefore, many passagemakers carry at least two electromechanic or hydraulic vanes; one as a backup or -- once both are broken -- to cannibalize for parts). Finally, if you are making a long passage without room (or desire) for a generator, your windvane is the best insurance against power loss. IMHO power loss (through any number of possible scenarios) is the number 1 cause of vessels getting into trouble on a passage. Happened to us on our 94 California-Hawaii passage. A solar panel and wind- or watergenerator are always be able to keep your radio going, recharge your handtool batteries and allow you to use a small navigation light, no matter whatelse may happen. On the other hand, if you needed to power a strong autopilot, you would soon be handsteering instead. Fair winds and following seas. Flying Dutchman
Jim, please clarify
I have not sailed the Hunter 34. Are you saying that the thru-hull set screw effectively clamps the hull and inner liner together? Or that the inner liner is in the way but not mechanically attached to the thru-hull (as is the case on our Hunter Legend 43)? If the first situation exist, I would indeed consider that a grave construction error since there will always be movement between the liner and hull as the boat flexes in a seaway. So, sooner or later the seal between fitting and hull will be compromised, potentially resulting in a nightmare offshore repair scenario. Flying Dutchman
I have not sailed the Hunter 34. Are you saying that the thru-hull set screw effectively clamps the hull and inner liner together? Or that the inner liner is in the way but not mechanically attached to the thru-hull (as is the case on our Hunter Legend 43)? If the first situation exist, I would indeed consider that a grave construction error since there will always be movement between the liner and hull as the boat flexes in a seaway. So, sooner or later the seal between fitting and hull will be compromised, potentially resulting in a nightmare offshore repair scenario. Flying Dutchman
Reply to Henk on thru hull
Hello Henk, There are no set screws. But perhaps you meant an item such as the knot sending unit, which passes thru the hull and is held in place by a large nut threaded on the inside of the hull. In the case of the 83 vintage 34, the liner is flat to hull, but not epoxied in this area, so if outside of sensor leaks at hull, can't get to inside of hull as covered by the liner. water travels between liner and hull.. in my case about 20 gallons per hour. What should have been done was to either.. 1)fully epoxy liner to hull in this area or 2)remove liner in this area before installing sensor.
Hello Henk, There are no set screws. But perhaps you meant an item such as the knot sending unit, which passes thru the hull and is held in place by a large nut threaded on the inside of the hull. In the case of the 83 vintage 34, the liner is flat to hull, but not epoxied in this area, so if outside of sensor leaks at hull, can't get to inside of hull as covered by the liner. water travels between liner and hull.. in my case about 20 gallons per hour. What should have been done was to either.. 1)fully epoxy liner to hull in this area or 2)remove liner in this area before installing sensor.
Thanks, Jim, for correcting my poor terminology
Yes I did mean the large nut, instead of any "set screws". On our Legend 43 the inner liner never covers the hull where thru-hulls are mounted. The situation you describe for the sensor thru-hull sounds worrisome indeed. I would not even feel 100 % safe if the liner were locally epoxied to the hull. The epoxy bond would need to be strong enough to survive hundreds of thousands of wave-induced hull flexes during which the large and relatively stiff liner would try to tear loose from the hull(not to mention collision or grounding scenarios). What about the seacocks (or thru-hulls plus valves) on the 34; is the liner there also clamped together with the hull? Just trying to educate myself in case a Hunter 34 owner is asking my advice on what modifications to make before venturing offshore. Henk Meuzelaar
Yes I did mean the large nut, instead of any "set screws". On our Legend 43 the inner liner never covers the hull where thru-hulls are mounted. The situation you describe for the sensor thru-hull sounds worrisome indeed. I would not even feel 100 % safe if the liner were locally epoxied to the hull. The epoxy bond would need to be strong enough to survive hundreds of thousands of wave-induced hull flexes during which the large and relatively stiff liner would try to tear loose from the hull(not to mention collision or grounding scenarios). What about the seacocks (or thru-hulls plus valves) on the 34; is the liner there also clamped together with the hull? Just trying to educate myself in case a Hunter 34 owner is asking my advice on what modifications to make before venturing offshore. Henk Meuzelaar
Response to Henk
As I said in my first post..all thru hulls, inlets, drains, etc on the 83 H34 have this same situation where the liner is clamped to the hull by the thru hull... Glad to hear that on later models Hunter remedied the mistake.
As I said in my first post..all thru hulls, inlets, drains, etc on the 83 H34 have this same situation where the liner is clamped to the hull by the thru hull... Glad to hear that on later models Hunter remedied the mistake.
Andrew, what say you?
Seems to me that Jim has identified a really critical problem. Or does your H34 not have this type of construction? I know that if one listens to everyone who comes up with a potential problem, you would never have made your fantastic Atlantic passage (nor would "Rivendel II" be in Vanuatu right now). On the other hand, potential sources of water ingress can really ruin your day, to say it mildly. Just read Webb Chiles' spellbinding "Storm Passage" where he carefully removes ALL thru-hulls before attempting a nonstop single-handed navigation and then has the keelstepped mast open up a crack which finally has him bailing out some 90 gallons per hour by hand, if I remember well. Closer to home; the Hunter 460 that recently took part in the ARC apparently had to be abandoned because they were unable to stop the ingress of water through the rudder tube (after loosing their rudder). The good news, of course, is that the H34 thru-hull problem is fixable, though probably not without a lot of elbow grease. Henk Meuzelaar
Seems to me that Jim has identified a really critical problem. Or does your H34 not have this type of construction? I know that if one listens to everyone who comes up with a potential problem, you would never have made your fantastic Atlantic passage (nor would "Rivendel II" be in Vanuatu right now). On the other hand, potential sources of water ingress can really ruin your day, to say it mildly. Just read Webb Chiles' spellbinding "Storm Passage" where he carefully removes ALL thru-hulls before attempting a nonstop single-handed navigation and then has the keelstepped mast open up a crack which finally has him bailing out some 90 gallons per hour by hand, if I remember well. Closer to home; the Hunter 460 that recently took part in the ARC apparently had to be abandoned because they were unable to stop the ingress of water through the rudder tube (after loosing their rudder). The good news, of course, is that the H34 thru-hull problem is fixable, though probably not without a lot of elbow grease. Henk Meuzelaar
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