When to put in the second reef?

[VanIslandGuy]

It's been a fairly gentle first summer with our Hunter 410 as far as winds go. Yesterday was the exception. We had +25 kts of wind. We also had guests with experienced sailing parents, and inexperienced children. To keep things simple I reefed the main straight away to the second reef, and no reef in the 110 genny. Upwind this worked really well, and at 45' off we were around 7.8-8 kts on the GPS and could balance things nicely with the traveller, and the cars in the forward third of their tracks. With no kids on board we likely would have started off with just the first reef and seen how it goes, but I didn't want to frighten our new child sailors, and thankfully they got off the boat with big smiles on their faces.

I haven't found anything in the manual on when the manufacturer suggests to reef. Our boat is the deep draft (6'6"), and tradition mainsail set up. I'm curious what other 410/420 owners are doing with regards to reefing, as far as xx kts first reef, yy kts second reef, etc.

 

[kappykaplan]

Lurker, I found on my Pearson that experience taught me when to take a reef. In 10-15 with gusts to 20, I see apparent wind of 15 or better going up wind, so need the first reef to avoid washing the toe rail. When the apparent wind gets to 20, I need the second reef. I haven't used my genoa in two seasons because the boat is overpowered with apparent wind over 15. Most of my sailing is solo.

 

[Don Lucas]

You were doing close to hull speed, doesn't that suggest that you did the right thing with the second reef?
We reef our boat whenever we start feeling overpowered or concerned and it varies as to conditions. And we have a rule on the boat that we reef whenever someone wants to regardless of what others think.

 

[David in Sandusky]

Most of our boats go slower when they are heeled beyond 15 degrees. In most cases, crew discomfort seems to start around 12 to 15 degrees. So that is the logical time to reef.

Despite the logic, we observe the rule that if we ask, "Should we reef?" then we reef!

Reefing before getting under way in suspicious conditions is a great move. It's always easy to shake out a reef! Well done!

 

[Terry Cox]

I've never reefed our 35,000 P42, although there have been a couple of times that I should have. Close hauled in 28MPH apparent winds, all sails up and the rail in the water was enough indication that a reef was needed. I was solo at the time and to reef at that point would have been dicey. Pinching helps to de-power in those conditions and that is usually what I do first.

 

[VanIslandGuy]

You were doing close to hull speed, doesn't that suggest that you did the right thing with the second reef?
We reef our boat whenever we start feeling overpowered or concerned and it varies as to conditions. And we have a rule on the boat that we reef whenever someone wants to regardless of what others think.

I have no doubt we made a good choice. On quite a few other boats where the polars are in the manuals you will get manufacturers suggested reefing wind speeds. Since we don't have that in the H410 manual, I was curious what other owners use as a rule of thumb.

 

[PGIJon]

In my opinion...Put in the 2nd reef the minute you first think about it.... That goes for the first reef too. -Jon

 

[rfrye1]

As the saying goes "reef early...." On my H376 I reef #1 at about 17-18kts, #2 at 20+kts. She stays on her feet, sails just as fast and everyone onboard is way more comfortable.

 

[Tally Ho]

?..In most cases, crew discomfort seems to start around 12 to 15 degrees. So that is the logical time to reef.!

You have not sailed with my Admiral....5 degrees she starts complaining. over 10, and it is time to take her back to the dock.

My O'Day 322 stiffens up at 15 degrees, but wife is not happy.

Greg

 

[shemandr]

25 + knots with kids aboard? I might have found a sheltered anchorage, or fishing spot and had a different day. But I guess all turned out well. There will never be any manual that will tell you what wind speed to put up what sail or how much to reef. It's just not like that. It's good practice to reef early and deeply when guests are aboard.

 

[Paul356]

As others have noted, the time to reef is when you first think of it. But I try to keep our 356 from heeling any more than 20 degrees, so the 1st and 2d reefs go in accordingly. She sails much better standing up. As I'm sure you've noticed, it's amazing how peaceful a properly reefed boat can feel, even when the winds are howling.

 

[All U Get]

Twist, reef, twist, reef. I'd get Don's book.

All U Get

 

[Gunni]

It isn't so much to keel configuration but the hull shape- flat and beamy. Your boat (like mine) needs to stay on it's feet for best speed and control. So yes, leaving the dock with a second reef would be SOP in 25 kts of wind. And it will assure you of best sailing and design loads on your rig and rudder. All that rail in the water, 30deg of heel stuff of yesteryear applies to a different design.

 

[Kings Gambit]

It depends on what you're doing. If you're out for a leisurely sail in fairly high wind and don't wish to be "fighting" the boat while simultaneously trying to entertain guests, then that's enough of a reason to go to 1st or 2nd reef on the mainsail, furl some headsail, or maybe drop nearly everything and "motorsail", etc. If you're trying to make destination in good time, then you'd want to keep as much sail pulling as the boat can handle w/o being overpowered, thus losing speed. Going upwind on a fractional rig with a 120% furling Genoa, reefing the main should follow after tensioning the cunningham, the outhaul, the backstay, and dropping the traveler to leeward. If on a masthead rig, furl in some headsail b/f reefing the main. However, in 25 kt apparent going to weather, with seas ahead, I'd more than likely be at the 1st reef point on the mainsail with the Genoa also reefed to 100% on my Bavaria 38 which is fractional, 6.5-ft draft, lead keel, fin. I'd surely hit the 2nd reef point by 30 kt apparent. I think it's been there only two or three times since I've owned the boat (12 yr). I typically don't find myself trying to sail to weather in those conditions. I suppose that makes me a "gentleman."

 

[markwbird]

The rule of thumb is: "If you are thinking about reefing then you should be reefing." What makes the rule good is that it factors in your experience level, guests aboard, etc.

 

[VanIslandGuy]

25 + knots with kids aboard? I might have found a sheltered anchorage, or fishing spot and had a different day. But I guess all turned out well. There will never be any manual that will tell you what wind speed to put up what sail or how much to reef. It's just not like that. It's good practice to reef early and deeply when guests are aboard.

It worked out great. Our guests were visiting for the one day on a cross Canada vacation, so waiting wasn't an option, just cancelling. The parents are sailors with Dad being an RYA yachtmaster. I showed them the forcast, and said that we would double reef if heading out. Thankfully our bay is super sheltered so we don't get much of a swell .

Actually quite a few manufacturers, (especially Catamarans), give you good data (Polars), which give good guidance on reefing based on engineering data rather than just feel. In the absence of data, feel always works.

 

[Gunni]

Actually quite a few manufacturers, (especially Catamarans), give you good data (Polars)

The first time I sailed a cruising catamaran (32' Fountaine Pajot) we sailed into a northwester front coming off the coast. Lazing along under light 8kt southerlies you could see the wall cloud, and heavy weather ahead. Ch.16 was lit up with distress calls and mayhem. Thoughts of flipping a beach cat ran through my head. I snuck down below and pulled out the owners manual hoping for salvation. Sure enough there it was - wind velocity ranges and reefing instructions for the boat. As we tucked the last of the second reef in place the winds clocked, weather hit and two crew members slid/blew back the cabin roof landing with a thud in the cockpit. Interestingly the boat handling instructions included a statement that above 35kts it would be necessary to use the engines to keep way into weather. We had steady 35kts, gusting to 45kts. I wondered if the little 10 hp sewing machines would do the job. They did and we fell off a few degrees to manage the storm chop. It all worked and I gained a new appreciation for catamaran seaworthiness.