What is the future of the Catalina 22?

Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Jackdaw, you seem like a very very smart person. I don't know about you, but there are not a lot of people smarter that I am. One of them just died so, even less now. ; )

-Will (Dragonfly)
Will, when I ran Product Planning at Magellan I had 4 very smart engineer who's only job was working taking the cost out of existing products. I'm guessing Beneteau has 40 engineers doing that same thing, looking at things (material and processes) you and I have never thought of. To think that you can I can could actually assume to know how to this better is amazingly arrogant, or ignorant.
 
Aug 22, 2017
1,609
Hunter 26.5 West Palm Beach
Sure. But remember that any decent size data sample will have outliers.
Outliers you say... Yea, I probably resemble that remark at times. Of course, choosing the scope of your data group will influence the outcome at least as much as the size of your data sample. If you take a pole of Beneteau owners or Tartan owners, you are not likely to find as many fans of small boats as you would if you pole a group of Snipe owners or J-70 owners. A lot of people seem to have J-70's these days.

Your tag line mentions only the 17s. What is the other boat, and what is the circumstance that make you sail the 17s more?
Actually my tag line lists both a 17' & 21' Hunter. I also own some stink pots. The 17's get used most often because they are quick/easy to rig & will handle seas up to 6' without causing me to soil myself, which covers most of my needs for short term usage.

Most of my boating is done on a whim, when time becomes available. That's probably the main reason why I usually reach for one of the easy-to-get-off-the-docks boats more often than anything else.
 
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Oct 19, 2017
7,744
O'Day 19 Littleton, NH
To think that you can I can could actually assume to know how to this better is amazingly arrogant, or ignorant.
Both, actually. But knowing that doesn't stop me from throwing out suggestions. LOL. Ha Ha Ha ; D
I was sad to see Mr. Hawking pass. His shoes will not be easily filled.
I couldn't agree more. His passing is the World's loss.

-Will (Dragonfly)
 
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greg_m

.
May 23, 2017
692
Catalina Jaguar 22 Simons Town
A bit of foreign perspective: Here in South Africa during the "great reign of the white man" back in the 60's to 80's things were good and sailing was popular. Today not so much. If you guys think the recession was bad - you are not even close to what it was like outside of USA!

It has always been a bit of an elite sport when it comes to larger boats here. Just yesterday I was at the local marina club to collect a mainsail of a 26 foot one design sailing boat. It was and probably still is the most popular one design keel boat designed and built in SA for day sailing and racing. In fact most of our top sailing skippers grew up on an L26. Unfortunately the boat is no longer being manufactured. Sailing is just not what it used to be here. Most of the patrons at the pub in the clubhouse who were taking advantage of the "double for two at the cost of a double" were dare I say it... a little over the hill and not exactly sober either!

It's very sad to see lots of boats lying unused in marinas due to lack of interest/cost of using the boat/red tape and regulations/safety equipment requirements and just getting on with making a living without having a life.

I for myself having never owned a proper keel boat always hankered after a Van de Stadt 34 cruiser/racer. That was my ultimate in small but capable boat since I was old enough to earn a decent salary. Unfortunately life planned otherwise.

So today some 25 years later: Would I buy a big boat? Absolutely not. I went to the boat accessories shop this morning to buy a small ratchet block for my dinghies main sheet! It cost nearly half of what I paid for the old wooden boat. A Ronstan ratchet block for 10mm sheet. Now "ratchet" the cost of the larger size block for the larger size boat and it brings clearly into perspective the cost of big boat ownership.

Marina space is at a premium and it nearly costs the price of a new family saloon vehicle to buy a 30 foot mooring! Then there is marina costs and annual club membership costs.

So my solution was a small boat that I could park at home. Would I buy a new one? Apart from no local manufacturer the answer would still be a resounding NO! Am I interested an a motor boat... been around big diesel marine engines all my life... nope, no thanks! So my little trailer sailer for weekend use and day sailing is going to fit my purpose perfectly.

Most active boats I see in the club today are old and on a shoe string private budget. Anything that is modern and newish is heavily sponsored and leaning towards racing. The rest are all just lying around rotting, too expensive to get seaworthy but not rubbish enough to get rid of.

The comment about catamarans: Interestingly, Leopard catamarans in South Africa makes huge amounts of large cats, 30 foot and larger, all for export to the charter industry! I would hazard a guess that very very few of their sales are actually private buyers and then I would say none of the buyers are actually Saffers!

Anyways I do hope that the venerable old 22 stays around for a long time into the future. I certainly will be using mine to teach my grandson to sail!
 

TomY

Alden Forum Moderator
Jun 22, 2004
2,759
Alden 38' Challenger yawl Rockport Harbor
In 50 years of sailing, I haven't seen much change. There are plenty of young people around me sailing, possibly more than I remember seeing as a youngster myself, 50+ years ago.

I remember, as a kid, small wooden boats we sailed in, like Lightnings, Sailfish and Flying Dutchmen. I recall seeing (not sailing on) big gleaming wooden yachts. I recall the first few 'yachts', that were built in the new material, fiberglass.

Back then, the new fiberglass daysailer's, were out of many peoples reach, just like they are today. Bigger new fiberglass boats, like mine, were out of most sailors financial reach. Certainly, young sailors, could not afford these new boats (that will never change).

The one dramatic change since then that is clear as day: While most of the woodies we sailed as kids are now compost, the new fiberglass boats being built 50 years ago, are still around.


My parents, sailors, might have seen my boat, when it was new at a boat show in 1961. They were successful but a new 38' racer-cruiser, would have been way out of their reach. They would chuckle today knowing I bought that 'new' boat for the price of a modest new car, 40 years later.

But they would break out laughing to know their grandson's 26' fiberglass sailboat, that he has sailed the dickens out of, cost a dollar.
NAMO sailing out (1 of 1).jpg
 

greg_m

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May 23, 2017
692
Catalina Jaguar 22 Simons Town
And that's it, isn't it. That is what this and other discussions like this are all about.

-Will (Dragonfly)
Yep, and thats what we are doing with the old L26... teaching youngsters from the maritime school to sail.

Although my Extra dinghy is essentially a one man boat I have been taking out young "crew" in the form of my friends son. My grandson is a bit too small at the moment... or so his grandmother thinks! I get more joy out of pottering around the bouys than the actual racing...
 
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Jun 9, 2008
1,771
- -- -Bayfield
This thread started out talking about 22-footers and it has worked its way into larger boats. As far as the popularity of sailing is concerned, it really is affected partially by which location you are from. In the midwest, over some decades, I have seen a lot of changes. Back in the early 70's the Minneapolis Boat Show was dominated by sailboats - which was the heyday of sailing in our area. Today the Minneapolis Boat Show is a dock and pontoon boat show. Tragic in my opinion. But, that had a lot to do with the economy. But, backing up......most of the marinas that carried both power and sail, back in the day, in my area, had a lot more sailboats than there are today. Of course there are yacht clubs, like Wayzata who cater to sailboat racing and so they are full of sailboats at docks and buoys. The only time you see a powerboat there is when the water falls to the depth where sailboats can't get in and so they let powerboats in to help pay the bills. There just used to be a lot more sailboats in the marinas around here than there are now. So, it takes some work to bring new people into the sport. Like sailing schools starting with kids in Opti's, etc., or sailing lessons for adults and charter certification courses. While someone mentioned a lot of young people can afford the new, shiny, expensive boats of today, there are a lot who can't, but yet they still want to get into sailing and one way to do that is to have a trailerable/launchable boat, which is where this thread started. The closer one is to a metropolitan area, the more expensive boating becomes, in terms of the cost to keep/store a boat. We have Lake Superior which is a couple of hundred miles away from Minneapolis/St. Paul and slips in that area are a lot less than those in the cities, or surrounding lakes where boating/sailing is huge. You cannot discount the entry level sailor. And part of the problem is where to put a boat. In the Chicago market, there are thousands of slips/buoys to put a boat - much greater than what Minneapolis and surrounding market offers. So, when you run out of places to put a boat, you aren't going to buy one. That's the cold truth, if it is not a trailerable sailboat. If there are slips empty, it most likely is because of the high cost of the slip. There are so many used boats out there that the entry level sailor can afford, but they can't afford the slip. I know......dealers are interested in making money and so concentrate on their profit margins, etc. But, to gain some future for the sport, you got to think about the little "guy" and the entry level people. I don't mean to imply this is a male gender dominated sport. There's lots of female gender sailors out there with as much enthusiasm and know how, if not more, in some cases. But, you have to introduce the younger set into the sport. Like the old addage - take a kid fishing. Take a kid sailing too and make it enjoyable. One thing about a sailboat, is that there is stuff to do, working as a team to make the boat go. And that is just if you are day sailing, but of course it applies to cruising as well as racing - whatever flavor you like (and you can like more than one flavor). As most of you know, you don't have to be a rocket scientist to learn to sail, but you do have to learn that basic understanding of the wind in relationship to the boat and sails and that is where it starts. And, you can progress on a need to know basis as well and because the sport changes and becomes somewhat more sophisticated (but the basics remain unchanged), you can grow with the sport at your pace. Because I get on a lot of different boats in my business, I observe that a lot of people who have been sailing for a lot of years (mostly cruisers), don't have a clue about where to put a jib lead. Perhaps they don't care, which is fine, but it is more of they don't know. Racing exposes you to that - so maybe you should take a kid racing too. Even if you cruise (and there are things you need to know about cruising that racers don't bother with), it is nice to make your boat, as slow or fast as it might be, to sail more efficiently, if for no other reason than to make your next landfall quicker, to better help match your wits with the weather more efficiently. Now, if it ever stops snowing here.......maybe we can go sailing. The endless winter.
 

walt

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Jun 1, 2007
3,511
Macgregor 26S Hobie TI Ridgway Colorado
Curious, what is the state of the sailboat accessory aftermarket? When looking for a sailboat right now, you have an enormous number of options to buy pretty much whatever you want USED and at a fraction of the cost of new.. and of course that is the path most people take. But then that person starts buying new sails, new outboard, new rigging, electronics, etc. My guess is that business catering to sailboat accessories are doing just fine and maybe even a relatively stable or possibly growing market.. Anyone know?
 
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Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Curious, what is the state of the sailboat accessory aftermarket? When looking for a sailboat right now, you have an enormous number of options to buy pretty much whatever you want USED and at a fraction of the cost of new.. and of course that is the path most people take. But then that person starts buying new sails, new outboard, new rigging, electronics, etc. My guess is that business catering to sailboat accessories are doing just fine and maybe even a relatively stable or possibly growing market.. Anyone know?
Probably. When FIAT left the US market for the first time in 1983, the business at the former dealers actually IMPROVED. Free from having to sell cars and just fix the dumb things, margins improved until people started to junk them.
 

TomY

Alden Forum Moderator
Jun 22, 2004
2,759
Alden 38' Challenger yawl Rockport Harbor
Curious, what is the state of the sailboat accessory aftermarket? When looking for a sailboat right now, you have an enormous number of options to buy pretty much whatever you want USED and at a fraction of the cost of new.. and of course that is the path most people take. But then that person starts buying new sails, new outboard, new rigging, electronics, etc. My guess is that business catering to sailboat accessories are doing just fine and maybe even a relatively stable or possibly growing market.. Anyone know?
That, and related local marine industry, are the doing well. And growing, I'd say.

I haven't seen a new production sailboat freshly launched, in I don't know how long. We see custom boats that are built locally, launched every year around here.

But those boat builders, and all the related marine industry, make their $, on old boats.

Maintaining them, storing them, trucking them, mooring them and restoring them. That's the marine industry on my coast. Then as you mention, there are numerous businesses, both local and worldwide, suppling the needed parts. Many of the above marine related businesses locally, have expanded in the last couple decades.

Local production and semi production boat building, has gone away. I'm not sure why anyone is surprised by that.
 
Mar 20, 2015
3,095
C&C 30 Mk1 Winnipeg
No reason something like that couldn't get off the ground again and that would put a charge in the small boat market. Groups could trailer at different times of the year to the left or right coast, Florida, Texas, the Great Lakes, etc. and enjoy their rendevouz'.
The group thing is compelling for people. While one of the many reasons I enjoy sailing, is the ability to get away from humanity, I do enjoy the social aspect, albeit taken in smaller measures than some people enjoy.
For others, especially younger people,the social aspect seems like "the" thing.

Small boats are what gets people hooked on sailing, and traditionally, starts them on the ladder up to bigger boats. Add in the social aspect, and you create sailors.

When I started sailing in the 70's there were small daysailers on all of the huge number of lakes in this region of Canada. Everywhere. Hobie 16, Sol Cat 18, Fireball, International 505, CL 16 (Wayfarer), Laser, etc.
Now it's rare to see another daysailer that is not sitting onshore covered in debris near a cottage, instead of being used.

If you go to clubs and marinas around here, most of the members are people who learned to sail back then.
Grey hair abounds. More and more small keelboats are sitting unused.

I have not idea how the big boat builders think that they will have customers, if people aren't getting hooked on sailing via a smaller boat like a C22 etc.

But it is not all bad.
One spring, when moving our C22 from storage, a woman in her late 20's came running out of her house as I slowly turned the corner into the backlane, on the way to our house. "oh my god !!! it's a sailboat ! I told my husband that I saw a sailboat down the road last year, but he didn't believe me ! It's a real sailboat !!!
I though she had lost her mind, but sailboat can do that to you... hehe

This is not meant as a criticism of the C22 NSA , but I somewhat question the value of a membership for someone who is only interested in cruising, and is not living in the USA.

Being USA focused, and the fact that most of it's events are racing related, not much currently applies to me. (In spite of that fact, I have been a member since I bought my C22)

The C22 NSA does have a few cruises each year, but there are no "local" meet-ups available to me. There are NO Fleets in Region 7, which is just south of me.

This forum has been a bigger influence in "meeting" other C22 owners and I would love to meet them in person.
I have no interest in racing anything but a day cat or racing dinghy.

There is a big international regatta on Lake of the Woods each August. The lake is amazing, and the week long cruising/racing regatta is fun. I have long thought, that a bunch of trailerable boats like the C22 should show up.

Anyone with a small trailer sailor has a common interest, and we have the advantage of being able to tow our boats.

IMO, An international trailerable sailing club... and I do mean international... would go a long to way to increase interest in sailboats, by forging friendships, and family bonds, around their use.


They should be nearly indistinguishable so the economy models are not a turn off because of the apparent lower status.
I think that's not such a good idea. Most youth seem to be driven by status and image. "Look at me" is the theme of the youth of today.
How many young kids with hardly any money, do you see buying older BMWs because they want to appear to be affluent ? (at least until they get their first repair bill). GM takes a Tahoe and adds some plastic trim and sells is as a Cadillac for a lot more. People get sucked in by that all the time.
Sell them a cheap boat, and make the "better" version have some cool add-ons, both visual and performance oriented. Youg guys do it all the time with old japanese cars.
Envy, has long been a great way to sell crap to SOME people.

If Catalina were to sell just a shell with all the crucial components pre-attached (ballast, keel, rudder), with the remaining components to be attached/completed by the end user, this would drive the price way down.
I'm not sure this would work in any volume. Kits for cars, trailers, boats, were common decades ago, yet you didn't see many of the finished product. And this was when DIY was just a normal thing. Less and less people have the inclination and skills to DIY much of anything.



So $50k for a new C22....
I'd be curious to know what were the originals worth and what the average after tax salary and cost of living was at the time.
Are they less affordable now ?
 
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Apr 21, 2015
127
Catalina 22 Sport #15582 Indianapolis
Glad to promote your regatta on the C22NSA website if you expect they will support a Catalina 22 start.
Please send me the details, and I will post it.
Thanks,

Rich Fox
Editor-C22NSA
 
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May 23, 2016
1,024
Catalina 22 #12502 BSC
I can't count the # of "bigger boat folks" at our club who walk past our humble C22 (and a few other C22s here), who stop by dockside and admire our little boat(s), and ALWAYS comment how great a boat it WAS for them back in the day.

One thing I admire about our small club is it's ongoing commitment to getting youngsters interested in sailing. We have an active ETYSA program, I sometimes sit at dockside watching those kids enjoying themselves, going turtle, righting their small boats, sailing off and lovin' it. Here's a pic of one of their "fleets", about to head off...some future C22er's there for sure!....good thread going on here Gene!

 
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Sep 20, 2014
1,320
Rob Legg RL24 Chain O'Lakes
If you want to see the industry flourish, build more lakes. Lakes around here are way over crowded and noisy. Most are too small to sail on. We used to build lakes, but not any more. Occasionally someone will build a puddle in a development, but nothing that you can put a boat in. Reclaiming rock quarries means back filling with trash and covering with dirt. No one will build a lake.
Give me 1500 acres, and a 10 hp limit, near a metropolitan area, and you can sell boats.
 
Oct 19, 2017
7,744
O'Day 19 Littleton, NH
Envy, has long been a great way to sell crap to SOME people.
You are so so SO right. Probably the number one way to sell people stuff they don't need.

However, if the goal is to push the C22, or something like it, into the hands of the masses, the masses can't be made to feel second rate by buying what is considered low status luxuries. The goal of making the high end and the low end look the same, is to increase low end sales to get people started.

In many stores, there is one or two prominently displayed staple item, milk, beer, something everyone will want, that is underpriced. The store actually takes a loss on it. But, it gets customers into the store. They come to buy the best deal on beer in town and while they are there, they might as well buy the charcoal, the milk, the sausages, the buns and BBQ sauce for their cookout that weekend. The C22 could potentially be that boat that gets the customer in the door. In two years, they may want the 28 footer or the 30, they've been seeing and admiring in the marina for the last couple of seasons.

- Will (Dragonfly)
 
Sep 30, 2013
3,541
1988 Catalina 22 North Florida
I can't count the # of "bigger boat folks" at our club who walk past our humble C22 (and a few other C22s here), who stop by dockside and admire our little boat(s), and ALWAYS comment how great a boat it WAS for them back in the day.
That happens so often, it's actually a running inside joke between my wife and me. Everywhere we go - every gas station, rest stop, and boat ramp, people walk up and compliment the boat, followed by "Our first boat was a C22! We LOVED that boat!" You can see it in their eyes as they approach, you KNOW it's what they're about to say.

As they walk away, we just look at each other and smile. ;)