What is the future of the Catalina 22?

Stu Jackson · Apr 1, 2018

Gene Neill said:
This is just idle chatter after all.

Good question, actually.

Except for some people who buy a BIG boat as their first boat, so many of us have started small and moved up. We did: Catalina 22, 25, 34, in 1983, 1987, 1998. There will always be a market for quality, affordable small boats.

Gene Neill said:
How many people buy small boats, brand new, at $40K price tags?

Few I doubt. But Catalina has almost always sold a wide variety of sizes. Whether anyone would buy a new one compared to the prices of good, very good used ones, is a bigger and different question: What is the future of new boat production with all these good used ones available? Just ask Hunter Marlow. Forget the robbery of the Bush I anti-boating tax (luxury tax - yeah right...) from the 1980s that buried many good builders.

The answer that has been discussed on almost all boating forums is that builders are choosing to make larger boats because that's what people who are buying are, uhm, buying.

Catalina is among the outliers in that they still make a variety of sizes. It would be helpful if others can chime in about other builders that I may not be familiar with.

pclarksurf · Apr 1, 2018

Timely — as I just saw an ASA feed on a write up of the Malbec 18... had to giggle as its many features and accomplishments are eerily similar to something we already have.

https://venturasportboats.com/malbec-18-2/

With a sail away price of 20k ? Looks there’s a pretty healthy market.

And I’ll be keeping my ‘73 . The future looks bright. Pretty sure she’ll outlast me.

rpludwig · Apr 1, 2018

Stating the obvious, I believe most of us C22'ers get on the bandwagon on the cheap with a desire to either learn to sail, trailer sail or simply as something boatworthy to tinker with. Can't imaging buying a "new" C22 for those bucks with so many out there for 2-5k, that's been Catalina's success (and downfall IMO).

Our learning curve has been a bit slow, with a move involved, but I imagine (as a cruiser), we will step up to a ~30 at some point if we wish to continue to pursue the endeavor. Most folks around here move up (larger) as older folks (who have been the circuit) move down smaller and sell off their 30-35' boats). Plenty of opportunity to sell off the C22 and step up for a somewhat meager investment, of course weighing the added maintenance/storage/hauling costs of owning a larger craft.

There's a great guy here on the forum that has a larger craft waiting in the wings as he steps up, think it's an Alpin Vega

!

Lafayette Mike · Apr 1, 2018

I wonder if sailboats will follow the travel trailer trend. Many, many years ago, we started with a small (<15') camping trailer....just a place to sleep. We eventually moved "up" to a trailer in the mid 20 foot range, that had a stove, shower, etc.... For a while, you couldn't buy a smaller trailer than that as the manufacturers figured there was more money to be made in the larger trailers. But after saturating that market, about 10 years ago, some new manufacturers "rediscovered" the small trailer market and there are lots of choices now. Maybe that will happen with sailboats?

Fortunately, (or unfortunately) sailboats seem to physically last longer than trailers, so my analogy might have to stretch out in time, if it is even applicable. If sailboats follow the trailer model, small boats will come back, but usually from different manufacturers, as once they get used to big boats, big prices, and big profits, its hard for existing companies to scale back down in size. With the number of C22s built you'd think of all boats, it has one of the best chances of staying in production. But like the venerable Sunfish (of which I own two), which has sold close to 10 times as many boats as C22s, production might move off shore. Sunfishes are now made in China. I'm not knocking that decision. It costs less to produce over there. But it also likely has to do with the market. With over 200,000 one-design Sunfishes manufactured, there isn't a lot of up-side sales potential left in the US. But sailing hasn't really caught on (yet) in China, India, Africa, etc........areas ripe for future sales. And smaller sailboats, due to their size and relatively low price, are relatively expensive to ship overseas. By shortening their supply-chain, moving some manufacturing offshore might actually help keep some mass produced boat companies in business.
Just my two cents worth........
Mike

Jackdaw · Apr 1, 2018

If you want a Catalina 22 buy a used one. Lots of them in good shape. And why buy a 50 year old design new? The world has changed a lot since the 60s and 70s. J/boats saw this, even with the very well regarded j/22 and j/24. They wound them down, and introduced the new age j/70. They sold and are selling thousands of them at $50k+.

Would you pay new car price for this today? Same thing.

Jackdaw · Apr 1, 2018

Gene Neill said:
It seems my question must have been a little too ambiguous. Forgive me.

What I was asking was, do you think the Catalina 22 will still be in production a year from now? Two years? Five?

I anticipated the conversation would meander to include other comparably sized boats, but I'll admit 1969 Buick Skylark comparisons on the very first page of the thread may have caught me a little by surprise.

Ok let’s try that one. Catalina has two 22 foot boats in their lineup, one 50 years old, the other 30. The newer Capri is clearly more modern, with its big cockpit and fractional rig. The cat22 is from an era where little boats were designed to look like big boats scaled down. That worked when people dreamed of casting off and sailing away, and the 22 could help people image that happening. Now people want fast fun that lasts a day.

Can either boat stay in the lineup? Sure, there is little added cost in doing so. They only build them to order. Might they replace one or both with a new boat? Maybe, but what would that look like? The 275 sport is an update to the 270, clearly sportier but not enough to make the sportboat people happy. So sitting between that group and more traditional customers that were scared by the boat, it languishes.

So maybe a Capri 22 update, with a retractable sprit for an asymmetric. Use the taller mast option and only fly a jib on a non overlapping rig. Nice.

JimInPB · Apr 1, 2018

Jackdaw said:
Would you pay new car price for this today? Same thing.

View attachment 148266

I guess that you haven't been to Barrett Jackson lately.

https://www.barrett-jackson.com/Med...2-w30-holiday-coupe-for-sale-florida-auction/

Leeward Rail · Apr 2, 2018

Jackdaw said:
Would you pay new car price for this today? Same thing.

I know that's not what you were getting at.. but...

You bet I would.
I currently run an automotive shop, in addition to having owned a BMtoubleyous (BMW), 2 Audis, 1 Volvo sedan, 2 Chev and 2 dodge trucks.. and currently two Subarus.. it's likely our next vehicles will be old ones.
The right old ones cost less to buy, hold their value (in some cases go up), are very cheap to maintain, and stand out from the typical windtunnel tyranny of most vehicles today.
Don't get me started on the lane warning, auto braking, backup cameras, BS they are forcing on people.

Case in point... $20K for a fully restored 1950's buick convertible I saw last fall. I'll take that over any modern car selling for that same price. Better on the pocketbook AND eyes.

@Gene Neill

I doubt the C22 and similar monohulls will be sold new for long.
My own experience seems to say that sailing interest has been slowly dying since the heydays.

The trend in cruising boats, at least from what I see in charter fleet demand, is multihulls.
They are great for family and friends who actually dislike sailing.
But cruising cats don't interest ME much.

Racing and daysailing Cats ? Hell yeah. I figure that is what would interest younger people too.

A new boat in general ? no thanks. I understand the concept of depreciation. Boats in general are money pits, nevermind new ones.
Besides, the good old boats keep going and going...

P.S. I thought this would be a thread about you getting rid of the C22 and focusing on your Vega.

Will Gilmore · Apr 2, 2018

i LOVE THIS THREAD! Sorry the cap locks were on, but I'll let it stand as is.
It seems that the new boat manufacturers are heading for a wall. There are a huge number of good used boats available for the entry level sailor, but all of those boats, or you can expect most of them, will need work when bought. How many used boats have you read about being bought that didn't include a post of all the work needed to get the new purchase ready for life in the new owner's care? That means, the people looking to get into sailing but reasonably don't want to spend $30,000+ on a small day/weekend/pocket cruiser are going to need to also expect to do some work on their new boat. This condition weeds out a fair portion of potential boat owners. The vast majority of sailboat owners are DIYers. It is almost demanded of them by the nature and ancient tradition of sail power the way homesteading isn't a career for a desk jockey. However, the fact that there are so many good used boats on the market means that someone bought those boats new, at one time. There was a market for new small sailboats like the C22. Powerboats are a better choice for the buyer who just wants to go down to the marina and take family and friends out on the water. If those people can't afford new and they aren't incline to do their own repair/maintenance work, they won't become boaters at all. Instead, they will buy a used RV of take an all expense paid cruise and head for the pier to fish.
Jackdaw's point about the obsolecence of the C22 is a good one. That really has to do with market expectations set by marketers and current trends for new boats, just as Jackdaw is trying to say. Catalina needs to respond the way Buick has

They've retired the name but the market for a contemporary Buick Skylark is still there. Can Catalina update the design and appeal to the contemporary buy-new market and still call it a Catalina 22? Yes and no. The large number of old Cat 22s need parts and support and they have to have a way off distinguishing these boats from the same model that looks completely different or the logistics around mistaken part purchases and errors in information will be very costly. It can be done, it is done. Does Catalina want to do it? High end boats have a higher profit margin, but their market is inherently smaller.
What will happen when companies like Catalina abandon the low to midrange market because so many used boats are available, then those boats run out?
Sailing will have to become affordable again or Catalina and others will have to find something else to make.
So, in my opinion, there is a market for the small day/weekend/pocket cruiser. It is waiting for the right boat at the right price by the right manufacturers will can support thus boat. It is my prediction that those boats will be built to last 10 to 15 years at best so the current problem boat manufactures are faced with won't happen again.

- Will (Dragonfly)

Jackdaw · Apr 2, 2018

JimInPB said:
I guess that you haven't been to Barrett Jackson lately.

https://www.barrett-jackson.com/Med...2-w30-holiday-coupe-for-sale-florida-auction/

You guys are completely missing the point regarding the old cars. I agree that some older rich collectors are buying them now, primarily because they are RARE. Put them back in the series production. And absolutely nobody will buy them.

Jackdaw · Apr 2, 2018

Small boats are much harder sell for boat manufacturers for a couple of reasons. the first is volume wise - they are much more expensive than larger boats on a cubic foot per dollar basis. The difference between a Catalina 22 and 25 is huge volume wise, but the manufacturing cost difference is 20 pounds of fiberglass and some lead. The other part of that is that the same amount of hardware goes into a small boat as a big boat. The fixed costs are just so high that it doesn’t make sense to make them when they can make 4 feet longer for almost the same cost.

And for Americans, bigger is always better.

Leeward Rail · Apr 2, 2018

Jackdaw said:
I agree that some older rich collectors are buying them now, primarily because they are RARE. Put them back in the series production. And absolutely nobody will buy them.

I'd be one of the buyers.

hehe

Agreed more or less. But I have a ever increasing number of customers who are not interested in buying new cars, due to the high cost and increased complexities of them.
Pickups, an almost required tool of any "working man" have become so full of pointless junk for a work truck, and almost insane prices, that it has kept the price of used ones much higher than they should be.

Like @Will Gilmore says, I suspect that the big change may be someone making a "vehicle for the masses" again. The C22 was the same thing in a boat.

Less and less spaces available in marinas makes trailering viable. Large boats are just way too much $$ for the average guy.
That said, if someone comes out with a reasonably priced, Ultralight, modern towable sailboat ?
Maybe it needs a manufacturing financial breakthough, to kick start it.
Making them effectively disposable like newer vehicles and products, WOULD help profits. Not a great thing really, but it would.

Jackdaw said:
And for Americans, bigger is always better.

Agreed. Yet Looking at the revival of interest in smaller trailers like the Boler, etc. in the RV world, and the fact that many young people are having a hard time paying the bills, I suspect that tradition may be changing a bit.

Old people with money are the main drivers of sailboats and RVs from what I have seen. Not the young people who are having a hard time compared to us lucky boomers at the same age.

@Lafayette Mike is likely correct. The real market is not North America. Contrary to what people hope, we have probably peaked in many ways.

Will Gilmore · Apr 2, 2018

Jackdaw said:
And for Americans, bigger is always better.

Jackdaw, I think you are fairly insightful around this issue, however on this point you and many others are mistaken. In the 1970's Honda and Toyota managed to break into the American automobile market amidst fuel shortage scares and hyperbolic statements around "Global Cooling"(oddly enough). The American auto industry responded with statements about a loss of market share that, "Americans loves big cars." and "these small cars are just a fad." Today, it is my understanding, that Toyota's market share is the biggest slice of the American market. They are making bigger cars to satisfy some Americans, but that is not where their success is based.
It is the price tag that is keeping small sailboats out of the general public's inventory, not the size.
I want a big sailboat because I would like to live aboard and sail the world. Dragonfly, at 19' 2", simple to launch, rig and operate, is the ideal boat for almost any other job I would ask of a sailboat.
When I said you were wrong, what I really mean is, it is a mistake to think that way. You could be right, but the evidence, as I see it, is lacking to make the statement.
America is great because we can market like no one else. When the industry decides it is worth pushing smaller cheaper sailboats into the market place, they will have no trouble exploiting or creating a market for them.

- Will (Dragonfly)

Jackdaw · Apr 2, 2018

Leeward Rail said:
I'd be one of the buyers. hehe

Agreed more or less. But I have a ever increasing number of customers who are not interested in buying new cars, due to the high cost and increased complexities of them.
Pickups, an almost required tool of any "working man" have become so full of pointless junk for a work truck, and almost insane prices, that it has kept the price of used ones much higher than they should be.

Like @Will Gilmore says, I suspect that the big change may be someone making a "vehicle for the masses" again. The C22 was the same thing in a boat.

Less and less spaces available in marinas makes trailering viable. Large boats are just way too much $$ for the average guy.
That said, if someone comes out with a reasonably priced, Ultralight, modern towable sailboat ?
Maybe it needs a manufacturing financial breakthough, to kick start it.
Making them effectively disposable like newer vehicles and products, WOULD help profits. Not a great thing really, but it would.

Agreed. Yet Looking at the revival of interest in smaller trailers like the Boler, etc. in the RV world, and the fact that many young people are having a hard time paying the bills, I suspect that tradition may be changing a bit.

Old people with money are the main drivers of sailboats and RVs from what I have seen. Not the young people who are having a hard time compared to us lucky boomers at the same age.

@Lafayette Mike is likely correct. The real market is not North America. Contrary to what people hope, we have probably peaked in many ways.

Yep. Unless its racing, American don't like smaller boats. Or at least are not willing to put their money where there mouth is for new.

Here is a case in point, the Seascape 24. A thoroughly modern boat, was boat of the year last year. Worldwide they are selling well. Its $70k. About the price of a BWM 6-series, whom BWM sold 3500 in the USA alone last year. In the USA Seascape sold maybe a couple of 24s. Meanwhile J/70s are flying off the shelves at about the same price. And the SSC24 is just as fast, and more capable.

http://www.seascapeusa.com/seascape-24

Jackdaw · Apr 2, 2018

Will Gilmore said:
Jackdaw, I think you are fairly insightful around this issue, however on this point you and many others are mistaken. In the 1970's Honda and Toyota managed to break into the American automobile market amidst fuel shortage scares and hyperbolic statements around "Global Cooling"(oddly enough). The American auto industry responded with statements about a loss of market share that, "Americans loves big cars." and "these small cars are just a fad." Today, it is my understanding, that Toyota's market share is the biggest slice of the American market. They are making bigger cars to satisfy some Americans, but that is not where their success is based.
It is the price tag that is keeping small sailboats out of the general public's inventory, not the size.
I want a big sailboat because I would like to live aboard and sail the world. Dragonfly, at 19' 2", simple to launch, rig and operate, is the ideal boat for almost any other job I would ask of a sailboat.
When I said you were wrong, what I really mean is, it is a mistake to think that way. You could be right, but the evidence, as I see it, is lacking to make the statement.
America is great because we can market like no one else. When the industry decides it is worth pushing smaller cheaper sailboats into the market place, they will have no trouble exploiting or creating a market for them.

- Will (Dragonfly)

Will,

I completely understand the market dynamics involved here, both in boats and cars. In car studies have shown over and over that america bought small cars due for fears about gas availability & prices. As those fear go away, we go back to big cars. You can plot it like a graph.

As for boats, there are GREAT modern, small 22-24 footers available new here, the seascape 24, the Beneteau 20/22, the Elan 210, etc, all which sell more volume in SWEDEN that they do in the USA. Can you explain that with your 'we're OK will small through'? And cheaper? Really what world are you living in? ;^) These boats are priced BOM+labor+overhead*margin, just like anything else. If there was a magic formula to make them cheaper, smarter people than you and I would have done so.

Will Gilmore · Apr 2, 2018

I will concede the point to you. Your argument is compelling and well supported.
As far as the magic formula, it is about the profitability in the market. If you have a factory that can produce an affordable smaller boat, but larger, expensive boats will make you more money, which boat do you build?

- Will (Dragonfly)

Jackdaw · Apr 2, 2018

Will Gilmore said:
I will concede the point to you. Your argument is compelling and well supported.
As far as the magic formula, it is about the profitability in the market. If you have a factory that can produce an affordable smaller boat, but larger, expensive boats will make you more money, which boat do you build?

- Will (Dragonfly)

Exactly. That was my point about the cubic volume/dollar ratio. It sucks in small boats. It's worse here because most Americans in their heart want a big boat. Most of us buy the biggest that can afford.