Was out this weekend, and the weather was great, 15 knots, 2-3 foot waves (on Chesapeake) and the H23 was moving. Only 1 problem, with a full main and a 120 (?-it comes 5-6" past rigging) up front, I've got WAY WAY too much weather helm for my liking. I'd guess, the boats heeled over to about 6" from deck/hull seam, and I've got 50lbs (YES 50) of helm. I was thinking of moving mast so it has less bend and rack or whatever it's called. Haven't measured it (Cliff uses 6" rack & 1.5 bend) but my boat has way more rack than any boat at the marina...that's the way I got it. Moving the mast forward will reduce weather helm right, moving center of sail effort forward ? I'm also thinking of trying a 150 or so up front.
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Steve Lucas
Weather Helm
My 88 h23 also had too much helm in strong breezes and a ton of rake. The boat came with a furlex furler which is uses a norseman type fitting on the forestay (non-adjustable). I decided to replace all standing rigging and shorten the forestay. I ended up with less rake and tuned in a slight bend and so far it has cured the problem. You might want to also consider reefing above 15kts due to the large main and lapping jib ( better balance/less helm and heel). I dont have alot of experience with larger genoas but a 150 in 15kts of wind on a h23 seems like too much sail. I get to hull speed and better with my 110 in those conditions. Steve
My 88 h23 also had too much helm in strong breezes and a ton of rake. The boat came with a furlex furler which is uses a norseman type fitting on the forestay (non-adjustable). I decided to replace all standing rigging and shorten the forestay. I ended up with less rake and tuned in a slight bend and so far it has cured the problem. You might want to also consider reefing above 15kts due to the large main and lapping jib ( better balance/less helm and heel). I dont have alot of experience with larger genoas but a 150 in 15kts of wind on a h23 seems like too much sail. I get to hull speed and better with my 110 in those conditions. Steve
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Greg Stebbins
Do it Mike.
Mike, 6" of rake and 1.5" bend is THE place to start. Come on, it's all in the turnbuckles. Just DO IT!
Mike, 6" of rake and 1.5" bend is THE place to start. Come on, it's all in the turnbuckles. Just DO IT!
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MikeY
To Measure Rake & Bend
So, Seems to me I would use the mainsail line and hang a weight off it, with boat in water ? Get this weight about 4-5" in back of mast with mast straight, then another 1" using upper spreader tension for bend ?
So, Seems to me I would use the mainsail line and hang a weight off it, with boat in water ? Get this weight about 4-5" in back of mast with mast straight, then another 1" using upper spreader tension for bend ?
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Greg Stebbins
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Steve Lucas
Mast bend
Mike, If you have the Z-Spar mast then you should... 1. Start with the backstay/shrouds loose 2. Set the right amount of rake with the forestay 3. Set the desired amount of pre-bend by tightening the uppers. This pushes the spreader region on the mast foward (like a bow). 4. Adjust the lowers to give the mast the desired bend ( pulls the spreader region aft) 5. adjust the backstay to complete the curve. The backstay influences the top of the mast more than the overall curve. All of this info is available from Selden Mast in a brochure called Hints and advice on tuning of your selden mast... Steve
Mike, If you have the Z-Spar mast then you should... 1. Start with the backstay/shrouds loose 2. Set the right amount of rake with the forestay 3. Set the desired amount of pre-bend by tightening the uppers. This pushes the spreader region on the mast foward (like a bow). 4. Adjust the lowers to give the mast the desired bend ( pulls the spreader region aft) 5. adjust the backstay to complete the curve. The backstay influences the top of the mast more than the overall curve. All of this info is available from Selden Mast in a brochure called Hints and advice on tuning of your selden mast... Steve
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Jim
Are there other masts?
Based upon a previous reply (if you have Z-Spar mast), it appears there might be more than one type. How do you know which one you have?
Based upon a previous reply (if you have Z-Spar mast), it appears there might be more than one type. How do you know which one you have?
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Greg Stebbins
23 mast types (at least!!)
Damn, is it that time again already? There are at least 3 mast manufactures used by Hunter for the 23. Z-Spar, Kenyon and France-Spar to name just a few. There should be a label on the mast around the gooseneck identifying your mast. The France-Spars is, I think, very rare and identical to the Z-Spar. The Kenyon masts were painted and somewhat heavier than the Z-Spar/France-Spar’s which were anodized. The Z-Spar/France-Spars has a fairly serious taper above the spreaders, which I believe the Kenyon doesn’t have. The deal is, there is a different set-up technique for the two (Kenyon – X-Spars) mast and I’ve forgotten which gets what this year!!!
Damn, is it that time again already? There are at least 3 mast manufactures used by Hunter for the 23. Z-Spar, Kenyon and France-Spar to name just a few. There should be a label on the mast around the gooseneck identifying your mast. The France-Spars is, I think, very rare and identical to the Z-Spar. The Kenyon masts were painted and somewhat heavier than the Z-Spar/France-Spar’s which were anodized. The Z-Spar/France-Spars has a fairly serious taper above the spreaders, which I believe the Kenyon doesn’t have. The deal is, there is a different set-up technique for the two (Kenyon – X-Spars) mast and I’ve forgotten which gets what this year!!!
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keith smoot
BEFORE YOU DO ANYTHING
I have the France Spar mast on my '87 H-23. When I got the boat four years ago I too had a ton of weather helm. A distance view of Gwaihir showed the mast to have a ton of aft rake. With very little room in the turnbuckles I had to move the mast top forward somehow. I did this by removing the doubled linkplate at the bottom of the forestay and moving it to the bottom of the backstay, above the split. This greatly improved the handling and pointing. Some time later I found the mast tabernacle had been mounted too far forward, so the mast actualy sits in front of the compression post. Check your mast location before doing anything. Plugging holes and drilling new ones is scarey, but then so is sailing a mast that is not properly supported. Then tune the rig. Good luck.
I have the France Spar mast on my '87 H-23. When I got the boat four years ago I too had a ton of weather helm. A distance view of Gwaihir showed the mast to have a ton of aft rake. With very little room in the turnbuckles I had to move the mast top forward somehow. I did this by removing the doubled linkplate at the bottom of the forestay and moving it to the bottom of the backstay, above the split. This greatly improved the handling and pointing. Some time later I found the mast tabernacle had been mounted too far forward, so the mast actualy sits in front of the compression post. Check your mast location before doing anything. Plugging holes and drilling new ones is scarey, but then so is sailing a mast that is not properly supported. Then tune the rig. Good luck.
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Gary Bridi
French Mast
Interesting stuff....my mast on my h23 is a Z-Diffusion and it is made in France. It indeed has a taper at the top which looks greater than it really is. It sweeps aft about an inch or 2 but the leading edge tapers alot more than that. I will say, that when it is up and I view it from a distance it looks like a 6 inch backsweep. I have used the tuning instructions in the book but was never sure if it was right. Any tuning suggestion ? Thanks Gary
Interesting stuff....my mast on my h23 is a Z-Diffusion and it is made in France. It indeed has a taper at the top which looks greater than it really is. It sweeps aft about an inch or 2 but the leading edge tapers alot more than that. I will say, that when it is up and I view it from a distance it looks like a 6 inch backsweep. I have used the tuning instructions in the book but was never sure if it was right. Any tuning suggestion ? Thanks Gary
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Greg Stebbins
Yep, it's that time again....
I'm going to try to stay out of it. My boat works pretty well right now. But I've got to go down and see if my mast step is actually over the compression post. - Damn!. Oh and by-the-way, My 23 is a stone ballasted Viking long boat with spruce mast and goat skin sails.. ARRRRRGh!!!
I'm going to try to stay out of it. My boat works pretty well right now. But I've got to go down and see if my mast step is actually over the compression post. - Damn!. Oh and by-the-way, My 23 is a stone ballasted Viking long boat with spruce mast and goat skin sails.. ARRRRRGh!!!
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Jim Kolstoe
Think results
There was a good thread on tuning for the h23 a few months ago. Check the archives. In general, tune your forestay, uppers, lowers, and aft stays in that order. I think the diffences between the varlious masts is more detail (i.e., how much rigging tension) than prodedure and goals. You want the mast held in colume by the rigging, with enough tension so the leeward stays are not loose in moderate winds. Loose leeward stays tell you the windward stays are not resisting the sideways push on the sail and mast sufficiently. Your windward helm problem reminds me of when my wife and I started sailing - I sometimes went home with a sore back and shoulder from fighing the helm. Some friends taught us to flatten the sail using the cunningham, outhaul and backstay, and then ease the traveler and mainsheet. If that doesn't work, its time to reef. By the way, we've been using a 150% gennie on our h23 for about 10 years. We generally take it down before average wind hits 15kts because it overpowers the boat. I assume the 5'6" past the rigging you mention is gennie clew aft of the side stays chainplate. That sounds about right for a 150%! Remember, the 150% means the distance from clew to the perpendicular on the sail luff is 1.5 times the distance from forstay to front of mast. Next time out, try flattening sails, easing trim our a bit or reducing sail area when the wind hits 15 kts. A h23 is easily enough driven that you'll find yourself going as fast or faster, with less heel and less work for you and the boat. I had a problem with getting the head of mast sufficiently forward, so I went to a local welder and had him cut me a new SS plate for the split backstay, about 5 or 6 in. longer than the original, and added a backstay adjuster. If you want, I'll run out and measure it. It cured a lot of problems. Remember, sailing on your ear is not only hard work, its slow. JIm Kolstoe, h23 Kara's Boo
There was a good thread on tuning for the h23 a few months ago. Check the archives. In general, tune your forestay, uppers, lowers, and aft stays in that order. I think the diffences between the varlious masts is more detail (i.e., how much rigging tension) than prodedure and goals. You want the mast held in colume by the rigging, with enough tension so the leeward stays are not loose in moderate winds. Loose leeward stays tell you the windward stays are not resisting the sideways push on the sail and mast sufficiently. Your windward helm problem reminds me of when my wife and I started sailing - I sometimes went home with a sore back and shoulder from fighing the helm. Some friends taught us to flatten the sail using the cunningham, outhaul and backstay, and then ease the traveler and mainsheet. If that doesn't work, its time to reef. By the way, we've been using a 150% gennie on our h23 for about 10 years. We generally take it down before average wind hits 15kts because it overpowers the boat. I assume the 5'6" past the rigging you mention is gennie clew aft of the side stays chainplate. That sounds about right for a 150%! Remember, the 150% means the distance from clew to the perpendicular on the sail luff is 1.5 times the distance from forstay to front of mast. Next time out, try flattening sails, easing trim our a bit or reducing sail area when the wind hits 15 kts. A h23 is easily enough driven that you'll find yourself going as fast or faster, with less heel and less work for you and the boat. I had a problem with getting the head of mast sufficiently forward, so I went to a local welder and had him cut me a new SS plate for the split backstay, about 5 or 6 in. longer than the original, and added a backstay adjuster. If you want, I'll run out and measure it. It cured a lot of problems. Remember, sailing on your ear is not only hard work, its slow. JIm Kolstoe, h23 Kara's Boo
Heard you missed me, well I'm back (almost)
I had the same problem with weather helm earlier this year. The excessive mast rake (I could pick my boat out of the crowd at the marine any time) was a dead giveaway. I found I had about 18" of rake, so I loosened all the stays and shrouds and set up the rig as suggested by Cliff R. I can now carry a full main with the 110 in higher wind than I did before, and the helm is much more balanced. As far as keeping the boat flat, I use my tiller extension so I can get out on the coaming and use my weight to help balance the boat. It's just like hiking on a dinghy, only more comfortable and drier. I am still fine-tuning the shroud and stay tensions because I don't have tight leeward shrouds just yet. Once I have it worked out, I will post the stay tensions. Peter S/V Raven
I had the same problem with weather helm earlier this year. The excessive mast rake (I could pick my boat out of the crowd at the marine any time) was a dead giveaway. I found I had about 18" of rake, so I loosened all the stays and shrouds and set up the rig as suggested by Cliff R. I can now carry a full main with the 110 in higher wind than I did before, and the helm is much more balanced. As far as keeping the boat flat, I use my tiller extension so I can get out on the coaming and use my weight to help balance the boat. It's just like hiking on a dinghy, only more comfortable and drier. I am still fine-tuning the shroud and stay tensions because I don't have tight leeward shrouds just yet. Once I have it worked out, I will post the stay tensions. Peter S/V Raven
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Russ King
Adjust Centerboard too...
Lots of good suggestions here. Another way to ease the weather helm is to raise the centerboard slightly. This moves the center of resistance back on the boat, or more correctly, puts the centerboard in the area where the center of resistance is. I don't know how well this works for the new boats, but this suggestion was posted for the 23.5, 26, and older water ballast boats a few years ago. Another common suggestion is to make sure the rudder is all the way down; I understand a partially-raised rudder contributes to weather helm.
Lots of good suggestions here. Another way to ease the weather helm is to raise the centerboard slightly. This moves the center of resistance back on the boat, or more correctly, puts the centerboard in the area where the center of resistance is. I don't know how well this works for the new boats, but this suggestion was posted for the 23.5, 26, and older water ballast boats a few years ago. Another common suggestion is to make sure the rudder is all the way down; I understand a partially-raised rudder contributes to weather helm.
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Mikey
Book Weights
I can do the same thing ! I can just look down the marina and pick my boat out. It's the one that looks like the mast is ready for a hammock. This WE I'll check to see what I need to rig in order to move it forward. I'm thinking, just add lenght to the back stay (lower) and use the turnbuckles. The front I hear will be adjusted all the way tight, which means it may need shortening...Crisco works best I hear :+)
I can do the same thing ! I can just look down the marina and pick my boat out. It's the one that looks like the mast is ready for a hammock. This WE I'll check to see what I need to rig in order to move it forward. I'm thinking, just add lenght to the back stay (lower) and use the turnbuckles. The front I hear will be adjusted all the way tight, which means it may need shortening...Crisco works best I hear :+)
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Davor Kusec
Weather Helm / Mast Rake
My '86 h23 has a Fran-spar mast and a Kanyon boom. I also had excessive weather helm until I extended the back stays by adding 2" long shakles where they attach to the deck. This allowed me to adjust all of the turnbuckes to eliminate the 8" of mast rake. The helm is now ballanced with only just the right tendency to round-up if you let go of the tiller.
My '86 h23 has a Fran-spar mast and a Kanyon boom. I also had excessive weather helm until I extended the back stays by adding 2" long shakles where they attach to the deck. This allowed me to adjust all of the turnbuckes to eliminate the 8" of mast rake. The helm is now ballanced with only just the right tendency to round-up if you let go of the tiller.
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MikeY
Good Guess
I'm going to guess, before I go measure it, that my 85-6 (forgot) H23 has over 18" of rake/bend...measure at the deck with the halyard.
I'm going to guess, before I go measure it, that my 85-6 (forgot) H23 has over 18" of rake/bend...measure at the deck with the halyard.
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Hal Pyke
mast tune primer
I have just purchased an 86 H23 and want to thank you all for some great info!! Where do you think I might be able to find a guide to mast tuning which may include a variety of settings and instruction? Thanks for the help.
I have just purchased an 86 H23 and want to thank you all for some great info!! Where do you think I might be able to find a guide to mast tuning which may include a variety of settings and instruction? Thanks for the help.
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Greg Stebbins
Hal Pyke
Actually, the owner's manual is a good place to start. As a new owner (of a great boat , by the way) you're going to be learning a lot of H23 specific stuff. It's best to keep the variables to a minimum now.
Actually, the owner's manual is a good place to start. As a new owner (of a great boat , by the way) you're going to be learning a lot of H23 specific stuff. It's best to keep the variables to a minimum now.
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MikeY
26" of rake !
I pulled up a weight with the main halyard and measured to the mast base, closet to weight - over 24" !!! So I loosened up the rear stays, and had to take them apart to get full travel as they were put on one side 10 more threads than the other, then loosened up the inner stays, outer too, and shortened down the forestay. Can't get enough travel out of the fore or rear stays so I'm adding a turnbuckle to the back first. Turns out, you can add a turnbuckle by: disconnecting shroud from turnbuckle, screw another one one (you now have two back to back) and add a clevis pin on one with a new larger bracket. The pin goes INSIDE the original turnbuckle, where the exposed threads would have been, on the inside. When I get the length and rake right, I'm going to replace the whole rear/split backstays with TWO seperate backstays - for redundancy.
I pulled up a weight with the main halyard and measured to the mast base, closet to weight - over 24" !!! So I loosened up the rear stays, and had to take them apart to get full travel as they were put on one side 10 more threads than the other, then loosened up the inner stays, outer too, and shortened down the forestay. Can't get enough travel out of the fore or rear stays so I'm adding a turnbuckle to the back first. Turns out, you can add a turnbuckle by: disconnecting shroud from turnbuckle, screw another one one (you now have two back to back) and add a clevis pin on one with a new larger bracket. The pin goes INSIDE the original turnbuckle, where the exposed threads would have been, on the inside. When I get the length and rake right, I'm going to replace the whole rear/split backstays with TWO seperate backstays - for redundancy.
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