Don: Do you have any helpful comments? The posts below are from the Big Boats forum. I just discovered this forum. Paul Michael, Thanks for your comments. I think you my be on to something when you suggest easing the main. The wind was at 90 to 120 off the starboard. The boat doesn’t handle well when seas hit the hull on the stern quarter, e.g. 150 deg or so. I thought that flattening the main would reduce the weather helm when perhaps I increased it. What do you think about the head sail issue? Chris: Rest assured, I am no sailing expert, and my post was no test. I was out in what for me was fairly rough water and I was just looking for feed back on my approach to keeping the boat under control. I was not sure where you saw a contradiction in my sea conditions relative to my helmsmanship. Perhaps I wasn’t clear in my description of the Straits. When I began the crossing the wind were 10 - 15 and the seas were 3 - 6 (worse right at Cattle Pass because of the adverse current). I had the main all the way up and the 135 unrolled all the way. As the wind built to 20 I put a reef in the main and rolled the headsail in to a 105 or so. The headsail was sheeted out some and had a large bag just aft of the leach. The waves grew very quickly to 15 feet if you measure from the bottom of the troth to the crest. I sheeted down, added vang, and dropped the traveler in an attempt to de-power the main. Based upon what Michael says, I should have introduced some twist into the main and dumped wind off the top. I will try that next time. What really bothered me was what my partner deems excessive heal. I am hopeful that this boat can be sailed in 25 knot and not be on its ear the entire time. My guess is that I just had too much sail up. My concern is that I do not relish going on the fore-deck to remove the 135 and hoist a 110-90 jib. Do you know of short-handed couples who do this? I have do it with a race crew but that was a different animal. And the auto helm just could not keep up with the conditions. The boat continually tried to round up and I had to pull hard on the wheel to keep her on a reach. It is usually winder here in the Northwest in the winter. If you are in the area and would like to go for a sail I would love to have you aboard. I venture I could learn a thing or two from you. Paul p.s. What do you think about the head sail issue?
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Vic
Depends on the boat
Favorite sailing is off castle hill with 8-12 ft. rollers and 20 knots ... in a J30 it is reefed main only. But with the tiller it is a lot of fun and I don't have to go the the Y that day as you are constantly applying pretty good force to the tiller ... we stand up and use our hip and legs to steer against the tiller to offset the constant weather helm and changes. On some boats there is just no way you can make the boat "balanced" without weather helm if you have waves and wind and a direction you have to sail with max speed. Steering with full body is a lot less tiring than upper arms only.
Favorite sailing is off castle hill with 8-12 ft. rollers and 20 knots ... in a J30 it is reefed main only. But with the tiller it is a lot of fun and I don't have to go the the Y that day as you are constantly applying pretty good force to the tiller ... we stand up and use our hip and legs to steer against the tiller to offset the constant weather helm and changes. On some boats there is just no way you can make the boat "balanced" without weather helm if you have waves and wind and a direction you have to sail with max speed. Steering with full body is a lot less tiring than upper arms only.
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Don Guillette
Paul: I'm not sure how helpful I can be but I'll give it a shot. Chris used the mainsheet, boom vang and traveler to control the situation he was in. There were a number of other controls he has at his disposal that would help to improve the situation. The mainsail has 8 sail trim controls and the jib has 6. Just like adjusting a 4 barrel carb, all barrels have to be adjusted together or the engine does not perform efficiently. Same with sail trim controls. Sometimes one control cancels out the other if they are not used correctly. What he was doing was trying to de-power the sail. Inducing twist is one of the ways as power spills out of the top of the sail. A totally flat sail is better for his situation. Also, the mainsail is like a giant rudder. In fact, it is more powerful than the rudder. In strong winds and large puffs, the pressure on the main will cause the boat to round up unless the main is eased and other adjustments are made. Space does not permit all the aspect (and it is really not much) that a mate has to understand in order to determine the setting needed for the main and jib on a particular point of sail and for a given wind speed. To cut right to the chase - here are the settings for a wind speed of 15 to 18 knots and a close hauled point of sail: Mainsail Traveler - Leeward of center Mainsheet - Max tension Halyard - Fuly tight Outhaul - Fully tight Cunningham - Max tension Vang - Max tension Draft depth - 10% to 11% Draft Position - 40% to 45% Telltails - All streaming Mast bend - Heavy tension Batten - Top parallel to boom Leechline - Max loose Jib Halyard - Max tension Fairlead - Outboard and aft Sail position - On spreader Headstay sag - Max tension Anyway, that is the way I would set up my boat for the conditions Chris was in. I'm not familiar with the Big Boat list but maybe you could pass this message on to them. Also, maybe you could refer them to the "Sail Trim Chart", which is sold by Sailboatowners.com, and which gives all the sail trim controls setting for all wind speeds and points of sail and the "The Sail Trim Users Guide", which explains WHY you are making a particular sail trim adjustment. If you ever get in the situation Chris was in, try the adjustments I've suggested and see if they work for you.
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Chris Gonzales
Remember we are reefed...
Don, You need to remember that the "situation" I was in (which actually is daily summer sailing on SF bay)included a single reef in the main, jib rolled up to about 100-110 and 20-30 kt winds. The "other items at my disposal", especially for controing main sail draft and depth (except for a tight outhaul) would not necessarily be available or help while reefed since the lower 4' of the main is now gone. Because of the reef you have lost the shaping by draft and depth. Also many boats don't have some of the controls you mentioned such as a vang, adjustable backstay, cunningham. Because of the normal windy bay conditions my halyards are always tight when the sail is set and the vang fairly tight. I would assume that anyone who has gone to a single reef would have already hardened up before the reef was necessary. The wind on San Francisco bay is often at reefing velocity before even leaving the slip in the morning. I often reef when I initially set sail. I don't know where the dickens the top batten is in relationship to the boom but I do know that setting the traveler to leward and easing the mainsheet does put her "back on her feet" at least 5 degrees. So much that you can see the boat move upright. Bay conditions inculde LOTS of chop but even under these trim conditions she my C30 will move along at 5-6 kts and heeling at 15-20 degrees and fairly stable with moderate weather helm. To be fair to you, you did mention in your post your trimming tips are for 15-18 kt winds close hauled. To be fair to me, please realize I mentioned 25-30 kt winds in my post. That particular day it was gusting to 40! I was going to put in the second reef but decided it wasn't any fun anyway so headed in. We did have about 6 hours of fine sailing before that, though. Chris
Don, You need to remember that the "situation" I was in (which actually is daily summer sailing on SF bay)included a single reef in the main, jib rolled up to about 100-110 and 20-30 kt winds. The "other items at my disposal", especially for controing main sail draft and depth (except for a tight outhaul) would not necessarily be available or help while reefed since the lower 4' of the main is now gone. Because of the reef you have lost the shaping by draft and depth. Also many boats don't have some of the controls you mentioned such as a vang, adjustable backstay, cunningham. Because of the normal windy bay conditions my halyards are always tight when the sail is set and the vang fairly tight. I would assume that anyone who has gone to a single reef would have already hardened up before the reef was necessary. The wind on San Francisco bay is often at reefing velocity before even leaving the slip in the morning. I often reef when I initially set sail. I don't know where the dickens the top batten is in relationship to the boom but I do know that setting the traveler to leward and easing the mainsheet does put her "back on her feet" at least 5 degrees. So much that you can see the boat move upright. Bay conditions inculde LOTS of chop but even under these trim conditions she my C30 will move along at 5-6 kts and heeling at 15-20 degrees and fairly stable with moderate weather helm. To be fair to you, you did mention in your post your trimming tips are for 15-18 kt winds close hauled. To be fair to me, please realize I mentioned 25-30 kt winds in my post. That particular day it was gusting to 40! I was going to put in the second reef but decided it wasn't any fun anyway so headed in. We did have about 6 hours of fine sailing before that, though. Chris
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Vic
What Don neglected to say ...
was that you can't get text book performance out of a streched out jib ... in heavy wind conditions that you talk about you need a jib in good shape and made probably of a ounce or more heavier cloth than the sailmaker recommends ... almost to the bullet proof stage ... you probably are like me and let it all out on a reach kicking the 30 up over 8 kts and surfing. but that needs a strong sail and even the heavy duty ones won't last more than 5 years and keep their performance especially partially furled. North uses a add on rope luff to try to correct and flatten the shape in smaller configurations ... and i have found that better than the "foam" luff. I got two years out of a mylar jib before it started to strech apart a while ago. But you sometimes have to hit the sail salesmen over the head when you tell them you want to upgrade the cloth ... they seem to want to give you tissue paper.
was that you can't get text book performance out of a streched out jib ... in heavy wind conditions that you talk about you need a jib in good shape and made probably of a ounce or more heavier cloth than the sailmaker recommends ... almost to the bullet proof stage ... you probably are like me and let it all out on a reach kicking the 30 up over 8 kts and surfing. but that needs a strong sail and even the heavy duty ones won't last more than 5 years and keep their performance especially partially furled. North uses a add on rope luff to try to correct and flatten the shape in smaller configurations ... and i have found that better than the "foam" luff. I got two years out of a mylar jib before it started to strech apart a while ago. But you sometimes have to hit the sail salesmen over the head when you tell them you want to upgrade the cloth ... they seem to want to give you tissue paper.
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