The importance....

[Alan]

....of good quality low stretch halyards.Double braid Dacron is a typical line used on many boats but is a very poor choice for a halyard. Low stretch is the most important quality that you look for in a halyard. In an attempt to minimize stretch, many skippers must go to oversize line and still not have a low enough stretch to maintain proper sail shape as the wind strength increases. Additionally the larger diameter line results in a huge increase in turning friction making raising and lowering sail a much bigger chore than it needs to be.The simple solution is a good quality low stretch line with a spectra core for low stretch and Dacron cover for hand friendly operation. This combination can keep the line size to a minimum for low turning friction while maintaining very low stretch which helps to maintain proper sail shape as the breeze increases.The added benefit of smaller line diameter is the added savings in the cost of the higher tech line and the weight aloft savings.

 

[Ross]

Alan, I often wonder about the advise concerning

high-tech modern line and how the men who came before us were able to cross oceans with hemp rigging. My sails are 100 percent polyester and are just as lont on the luff as is the halyard. So even if there is no stretch in the halyard what do modern sailors do about the stretch of the sail itself? and when does it become important.

 

[Alan]

Yes, Ross

...they had square riggers that could only sail down wind and sails that where very heavy canvas. Their ships were made of wood and they navigated by the sun and stars. Technology moves on and things improve. Now sailing up wind is possible with air foil shaped Dacron sails. Then they invented high-modulus fabrics for even better sails. GPS for navigation and auxiliary engines for propulsion.But maybe things are good enough now. Maybe we should stop here and forget about trying to improve things. Nah, I'll stay with the improving technology. If you prefer you can stay with the hemp rope.

 

[Ross]

Alan did you ever read of the records

set by the China clipper ships? Those were not square riggers and they were not by any discription slow.

 

[Benny]

Hey Ross, the speed of them Clippers

was a result of their long waterlines. Like an old hot rodder used to say, if you want to add cheap horsepower add cubic inches. If you need a faster sailboat get a longer one.

 

[John D3181]

Please get your "facts" straight.

"...they had square riggers that could only sail down wind..." Shame on you.

 

[Don12364]

I did a Test on low stretch lines

This was for a UK boating mag. I made several sheaves of different diameters all on instrument quality ball bearings. Then I hung a 1/2 hundredweight on each end of the line. This was to simulate the typical 'pull' a crewman would exert. Then I added weight to one side of the 'balance' until the sheave just began to turn.I tested low stretch and conventional double braid and even laid (twisted) ropes.The non stretch lines are incredibley stiff under tension. I believe this to be because when under load the outer braiding clamps down on the inner strong in line oriented fibres and prevents them from sliding over each other as required when the rope passes over a sheave.It also showed that the thinner the line the lower the resistance to running under load.The most flexible lines were the, unsurprisingly, the laid ones closely followed by the conventional braided lines and bottom of the pile were the low stretch varieties.What this means is, if used in multi-part tackles, much of the additional power of the tackle is lost if low stretch lines are used.It also indicated that for free running tackles one needs to go as thin as possible for a given sheave size - thus negating some of the low stretch properties.Low stretch lines have their places - particularly for halyards and alongside SS wire which is easy running and low stretch - and inexpensive - but a tad heavier.Just my two cents.

 

[Ross]

What I had in mind was the china trade

schooners. they were fast fore and afters that couls sail to the weather. My mistake for referring to them as clippers.

 

[Bill Roosa]

SS, the ultimate low stretch

Wears great, lasts a long time, does not stretch much at all, is flexible and cheap.What is not to like for use as a halyard? Especially a jib halyard that does not get used much. I've used both and if you can get the rope tail splice right it is the cat's meow for tensioning the luft. The only draw back is you need a dedicated winch. I've been looking for a wire rope clutch but to date have not found one. When installing a SS halyard with dacron tail be sure to make the splice so that when the sail is hoisted the SS is the only part that has tension.OK let the flaming begin.

 

[Ross]

Bill I don't see any reason to shoot you

down for that opinion. That is proven technology. As long as you don't advocate reel winches you get to live. ;D

 

[Moody Buccaneer]

Great Post Donalex

The relationship between sheave diameter and rope diameter is one of the reasons that smaller line runs more easily on the same sheave. Lewmar stamps this information on the sheave of their blocks, i.e. "Maximum Line Dia. 3/8" and "Optimum Line Dia. 5/16"For boat shows I have a setup that has the Max line dia on one set of blocks and Optimum dia on another to show the difference. People tend to choose hardware backwards. They choose the smallest, least expensive hardware that will pass the line and end up with tackles that are much less efficient than they could be.I think if you were to repeat the experiment and compare lines of equal strength over the same sheaves you might find that the smaller diameter high modulus line does not incur a friction penalty.3/8" Poly double braid is rated about 4400 pounds3/16" Spectra is rated at about 5000 poundsI wonder what the results would be if you compared 3/8" double braid to 3/16" 12 strand over the same size sheave? Of course no one wants to trim a 3/16" diamter mainsheet so the experiment has little value for hand tackles. The shape of the sheave also effects the efficiency. Wire, conventional, and hi-tech line are happiest running on different groove shapes. Kevlar cored line is very fussy that way (thank goodness Kevlar is not the core of choice any longer).If you use 10% internal friction loss over each sheave you can see that adding parts to a tackle has diminishing returns:1:1 > .9:12:1 > 1.8:13:1 > 2.7:14:1 > 3.6:15:1 > 4.5:16:1 > 5.4:17:1 > 6.3:18:1 > 7.3:1In the real world 15-20% loss from using the wrong size line is a better number and if you have a 5% loss in the sheave bearing, tackles greater than 4:1 look pretty bad:1:1 > .75:12:1 > 1.5:13:1 > 2.25:14:1 > 3.0:15:1 > 3.75:16:1 > 4.5:1Changing a 4:1 mainsheet tackle from the largest line the block will handle and changing from plain bearings to ball bearings has the effect of changing the tackle from 4:1 to 5:1What this means when selecting hardware is that for easy adjustment under load like a mainsheet system, you need to pay close attention to line size, bearings and sheave diameter. For tackles that are set and not adjusted under load you can size the hardware to the load and not be so fussy about line size, bearings and sheave diameters.

 

[Ross]

Moody, Let's not forget that the strength

of blocks varies with size so that while running 1/4 double braid may be safe running 1/4 spectra could easily overload the block.

 

[Moody Buccaneer]

Close but no cigar ...

Bill,SS 7x19 wire halyards yes.Wire on the winch no.The tail of the wire inside the splice should be above the winch or rope clutch. Running the splice around the winch is a no-no. The wire will try to cut it's way out of the rope.If you size the wire and rope properly, you are only dealing with a short length of line that is stretchy. In a 5/32 wire halyard spliced to 3/8 line, the wire is rated at 2400 pounds, the rope at 4400 pounds. A 200 pound halyard load is just over 8% of the wire's rating and the rope is stressed under 5% of it's rating. At 0.75% stretch under 5% load, a 12" section of line between the winch and the splice only stretches 0.09". The 40' of 5/32 wire will stretch 1.01" under 200 pounds load. Putting the tail of the splice above the winch and being able to use a stopper is the difference between 1.01" stretch and 1.10" stretch. If the whole halyard was 3/8 braid the stretch would be over 3.6"The reason this is important is for main halyards. If you don't use a wire reel winch, you are faced with the wire/rope splice being under tension when the sail is reefed. I don't trust wire/rope splices that have been on or over a winch. The splice is going to have to carry the full load of the reefed sail anyway, I should be able to trust the splice at full hoist. The splices last longer, the wire never goes around a winch drum so you don't need bronze or stainless winches and you can use rope clutches.For the same 1" stretch over 40' as 5/32" SS wire, you need about 3/8" spectra. The 40' 5/32 halyard weighs 28.8 ounces, the 40' 3/8" spectra halyard weighs 25.6 ounces. The wire halyard does not creep (holds it's tension and settings are repeatable), the spectra halyard creeps and gets longer every time it is under tension. For the small weight reduction, I'm not a huge fan of spectra halyards over wire halyards on cruising boats. On racers, where stripped covers are used and running rigging replaced often, the weight reduction is more like 50% for the same stretch and since halyard tension is adjusted regularly, the creep is less of a factor.Sorry ... I'm a rigging nerd ...

 

[Moody Buccaneer]

Absolutely

Using 1/4 spectra on a block designed for 1/4 double braid is a waste. The hardware will fail long before the line is stressed.If you size the hardware for the load, then reduce the line size by using better rope, the system will maintain it's integrity. 3/16 spectra looks silly on a 3" block though, works like a damn, but just looks wrong.

 

[Warren Milberg]

As a sailor who only races

now and then, and mostly informally, I have always found the argument for high tech/low stretch skinny and expensive halyards somewhat bizarre when based on "weight aloft." Unless you've got a really big full time racing boat (i.e.,nothing gets on the boat that doesn't make it go faster) that demands the use of miles of line for its halyards, the weight aloft argument seems insignificant to me considering all the other extraneous weight most of us "racer/cruisers" haul around all the time.To me, ordinary old Stay-Set X, sized appropriately for the masthead sheaves AND my hands, is just about the perfect stuff for halyards.

 

[Bill Roosa]

Wire on a winch with tail on a cleat

Well I'll be the first to admit I don't know everything but seeing is beleving. On my 30' Catalina with tall rig we had a wire spliced to an eye and a bowline as a splice. The winch was on the mast and by the time you got the sail up you had taken the splice, eye and bowline, through the winch and had 3 turns of wire on the winch. Then we would wrap the excess wire on the winch and tie off the tail to a cleat also on the mast. While getting the splice through the winch was always a challenge it got to be second nature after a while.I always suspected this was wrong but it worked fine.

 

[Moody Buccaneer]

California Rope to Wire Splices

Bill,We call those California splices. Two Nico eyes and a eye splice or bowline are much faster (and much cheaper) than a tail splice.I still have the original winches on the mast of my '75 C30. Back in the day winches had chrome bronze drums and held up to the wraps of wire pretty well. In today's world of rope halyards most winches have alloy drums and would be very short lived if the wire was on the drum.After looking at all the options, I've decided to return to rope/wire halyards on my boat. Sta-Set X or Marlow is about as good as it gets in Dacron, Spectra creeps, and Vectran is still too expensive for my wallet.

 

[Bill Roosa]

There are loads and then there are LOADS

clearly the two designs have different load carrying capabilities. What I'm not sure of is "does it make any difference?" I don't know of anybody who puts even 500 lb of tension on their main luft so I don't think that if it will withstand 4000 lb or 5000 lb of load is really a fair question to ask as far as which one is better.Both will work so the question becomes which one has lower friction with the load on it and cost/maintenance concerns.

 

[Ross]

I agree with Bill, My halyard winches have a 2 1/2

inch drum and 10 inch handles so my mechanical advantage is about 8:1. therefore if I want 500 pounds tension on the halyard I MUST apply more than 60 pounds force to the winch handle. I doubt that I ever do that. That is equivalant to about 8 gallons of fuel or water. I find a 5 gallon can is enough of a load and if I use that as a reference then about forty pounds forse on the winch handle is close.

 

[John Nantz]

Halyard Load and Wawona

Need to make a correction to my previous post as follows:What I wrote: "All the knowledgeable people I talked to said sheaves with bearings have a lower load capacity than those with bearings" should have read " ..... than those withOUT bearings." In other words, the original sheaves were just nylon sheaves riding on a large "pin" which is around 1/4" to 5/16" diameter or so. Loads: if there is a 100# halyard load (pulling up) due to a sail, and the tension on the halyard is 100# (pulling down, as it goes to the winch), then the load on the masthead sheave bearing is 200#. Some more info about the Puget Sound schooner Wawona:Wawona, 1897 Pacific Schooner, link to Northwest Seaport .org, Wawona historical info from Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WawonaSeattle Mayor gives ultimatum or edict to move the Wawona: http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/274348_wawona17.html