The Answer on the Starter

[Roger Long]

I'm going to be having an interesting talk tomorrow with the well regarded shop in Maine that rebuilt my starter last year. It's the one Mainesail uses and he was stunned when I called him about it today.

I took the starter in and told them that I was leaving on an extended cruise to some wild places so I wanted it made as close to new as possible. Why did it fail? It wasn't the solenoid. The brushes simply wore to where they didn't make contact anymore because Twin Cities didn't put new ones in when they rebuilt the starter. The tech at the shop in Willmington showed me the original OEM stamp on the brushes and where you could see that the solder hadn't been disturbed. There is also no way new ones got that short even starting every day since July.

This is a good example of why you can't be too much of a pest on critical items. Saying "Make it like new" doesn't get as good results as, "Put new brushes in whether it needs them or not and...."

I can't say enough good things about Ploener's

http://www.ploenersapco.com/

The pride in his work and knowledge of the guy working on my starter is something that is disappearing in American business. The armature looked brand new and jewel like sitting on his bench. They had ordered two different kinds of solenoids so I would have a choice of lug orientation and switch connection. I think this starter now is as good as new.

I still bought the new one for $300 so I would have a spare. It is a geared, aftermarket unit which is lighter and provides a bit more clearance in the engine compartment. The starting is much quieter and smoother, I can hardly hear it turning. The engine just starts. It being brand new will be a comfort when I really, really need the engine to start.

In the future, I will pay to have any alternators or starters shipped to and from Ploener's. They also rebuild anchor winch motors which can often avoid replacing an entire winch.

 

[Tom J]

Good to know, Roger. Thanks, and Good Luck!

 

[kloudie1]

Good to know.. sounded kinda like classic brush problem to me.. Good that the new geared one works so well.. I am still using my original Yanmar on my 3 gmf 27 years old now .. next year I have plans to pull it and rebuild it but have toyed with the idea of one of the newer high-torque geared units as a replacement as you've done..
Looks like you've solved another cruising challenge.

 

[Maine Sail]

I'm going to be having an interesting talk tomorrow with the well regarded shop in Maine that rebuilt my starter last year. It's the one Mainesail uses and he was stunned when I called him about it today.

I took the starter in and told them that I was leaving on an extended cruise to some wild places so I wanted it made as close to new as possible. Why did it fail? It wasn't the solenoid. The brushes simply wore to where they didn't make contact anymore because Twin Cities didn't put new ones in when they rebuilt the starter. The tech at the shop in Willmington showed me the original OEM stamp on the brushes and where you could see that the solder hadn't been disturbed. There is also no way new ones got that short even starting every day since July.

This is a good example of why you can't be too much of a pest on critical items. Saying "Make it like new" doesn't get as good results as, "Put new brushes in whether it needs them or not and...."

I can't say enough good things about Ploener's

http://www.ploenersapco.com/

The pride in his work and knowledge of the guy working on my starter is something that is disappearing in American business. The armature looked brand new and jewel like sitting on his bench. They had ordered two different kinds of solenoids so I would have a choice of lug orientation and switch connection. I think this starter now is as good as new.

I still bought the new one for $300 so I would have a spare. It is a geared, aftermarket unit which is lighter and provides a bit more clearance in the engine compartment. The starting is much quieter and smoother, I can hardly hear it turning. The engine just starts. It being brand new will be a comfort when I really, really need the engine to start.

In the future, I will pay to have any alternators or starters shipped to and from Ploener's. They also rebuild anchor winch motors which can often avoid replacing an entire winch.

I will be having a talk with Rick on Monday. This is exactly why I stopped using Kazza Electric.. So far Rick has done good by me but I am always very specific about what I want listing each item in writing or on the work order.

For example I recently had them rebuilt a Hitachi alternator and I specified.

Clean, Bead Blast & Paint Case
Bead Blast & Paint Fan Blade
New Grommet for AC Tap Wire
New Bearings
New Brush Kit & Slip Rings (if necessary)
New regulator
Diode test
New Machined Pulley
Air blast of the windings


They've been good to me but IMHO Gary is a little over worked and Rick probably needs to get him some help...

 

[Roger Long]

I will be having a talk with Rick on Monday.

I just called him and got the hasty "We're honest folks here." run around. He did pull my invoice and it just says "Clean and inspect". There's a good lesson here.

I'm largely at fault for just stuffing the invoice in my pocket and rushing off to deal with the mountain of other cruise preparation things I was buried under. Considering how many times car starters start, I might not have questioned using the old brushes at the time. My starter never runs for even as long as most car engines on starts.

The situation was also complicated by the fact that I took in an alternator at the same time which had been "rebuilt" by Kazza. Twin Cities bench tested it and found it non-functional due to a brush that had been installed improperly. Kazza never tested it.

I had asked that the alternator just be checked because of what I had been hearing about Kazza. I think the "just check it out" message probably got transferred to both units. It appears that the bulk of the bill I paid was for straightening out the alternator.

All this proves that the only thing that is worth the paper it is printed on is a written work order, written by you. The shop can then write their own if the want. I never did anything when I managed aircraft maintenance except by written communication. I should have kept that habit with boats and will go back to it.

Many aircraft and boat losses start with a very small error or omission. There have been some moments in the last 5000 miles where this omission of mine could have cost me my boat. It's a lesson I will try to not soon forget.

 

[kloudie1]

The aircraft guys have to sign the work and can get their ticket pulled for the kind of work that was done on your starter.. so it is much safer to do it in writing in airplanes. Glad you did find some trustworthy, real mechanics.

 

[Bill Roosa]

given the difficulty of finding a good mechanic and that you only find out that he was a bad one at the worst moment I'd recommend that you learn to do your own mechanic work. This has three immediate benefits.
1) You get to understand how these systems work and can be in a position to repair them when you don't have a menchnic around.
2) You know the work is done right or at least know where you cut the corners for future referance.
3) You save some money.

it is also in the tradition sailors are are self sufficient lot and this is in agreement with that too

 

[DeniseO30]

imagine the stress if the motors were for the ballast tanks on a submarine! that just happens to be over the Maharanis Trench!

 

[Stu Jackson]

given the difficulty of finding a good mechanic and that you only find out that he was a bad one at the worst moment

Bill & others,

I didn't read Roger's post that way. I read that the mechanics were good but that he didn't clearly specify certain work.

What am I missing?

 

[Squidd]

I agree strictly a communication issue and no follow up..

Reminds me of when I worked at an auto shop, guy came in for tires on his camper/trailer.. we put new tires on gave the wheels a spin, no noticeable grinding or looseness so we sent him out...

Comes back a week later saying the bearings blew out and ripped up his tire and it was our fault wanted recompensation..

We checked work order and reciept... no where were we asked to repack/replace bearings...we did not do that and we did not charge for it on reciept...

How is this the shops fault...?

 

[Jimm]

Bill & others,

I didn't read Roger's post that way. I read that the mechanics were good but that he didn't clearly specify certain work.

What am I missing?

Fortunately I have great mechanics nearby at Diversiefied Marine , especially given that I'm "mechainically-challenged", but without clear communication all sorts of problems can occur - and not just with boat repairs

 

[Roger Long]

OK, I take the rap on the starter. It’s primarily my fault and I’m not feeling good about myself today.

Some thoughts on customer service though. I did tell Twin Cities when I took the starter in that I was going to be doing long distance cruising and needed to depend on it like it was new. I then failed to follow up, verify, and confirm.

When I was in business, I figured people paid me as much for my advice as for being able to get lines drawn on paper or a compute. Ploener’s listened to my situation, clearly understood it, suggested the new starter. They then told me they thought my old one was as good as new after their rebuild and said they wouldn’t hold me to the purchase of the new one as long as I helped them out with the shipping. They took me out into the shop to view the work on my old one and let me talk with the fellow rebuilding it and see the insides. They had ordered multiple solenoids and sent a couple back without charging me to be sure I got the one that fit my installation. They proactively engaged and worked with me to be sure everything came out right. They even gave me a copy of the data sheet showing the new starter as a replacement for my old one.

I said to Twin Cities, "I'm going some serious places for the long haul. I really need to depend on this starter." They cleaned it up, looked inside, put it back together, and gave it back to me."

I made the same mistake of verbal instructions with Ploener's only this time I just said, "Fix it as a spare.", because I'd already decided on the new one. They polished the commutator and armature to bright new finish, put in new bearings, replaced the brushes, replaced the solenoid, everything except rewinding. The windings were inspected and found to be in perfect condition. You do the math.

This is what great customer service is. You don’t have to dog them at every turn to be sure it comes out right.

 

[Dantodd]

Ploener’s listened to my situation, clearly understood it, suggested the new starter. They then told me they thought my old one was as good as new after their rebuild and said they wouldn’t hold me to the purchase of the new one as long as I helped them out with the shipping.

Huh? Am I misunderstanding this or are you saying they recommended something, decided they were wrong for recommending it and still wanted you to pay for part of the shipping for the part you didn't need in the first place?

 

[Tom J]

I like your idea about comparing boat maintenance to aircraft maintenance, Roger. I still make notations in my boat's maintenance log like I did in the Air Force. I "R & R" the part (remove and replace), I don't just change it, etc. Maybe we should go a step further and go to red diagonals and red X's on the daily inspection report.

 

[Roger Long]

Am I misunderstanding this ...

Yes. Their first recommendation was made before they had seen the inside of my old starter. Once they had seen it and rebuilt it, they felt that it was as good as a new one and I believe that seeing what they put into it.

I bought the new one for more reasons than just a tiny bit of peace of mind being new. It works better, the solenoid contacts are serviceable by me in the field if need be, it's lighter, and I'll have a spare starter.

I asked them to do the special order of the new one in advance partly so I wouldn't be held up another day and have to rent a car if my old one was found to be toast. They weren't going to hold me to it if I decided to take the cheap route but I think it would have been fair for me to pay for the shipping under the circumstances.

 

[DeniseO30]

this could make you smile or cry Roger. Clearly it would be $$$i
http://youtu.be/IS4mqHmPB6gCummins 6BT inertia starter - YouTube

 

[Skipper Dave]

Don't be too hard on yourself Roger. I feel for you. I've been a certified auto tech for over 30 years and have seen this type of thing happen to many people. There are many guys that turn wrenches and call themselves mechanics, then there are trained technicians. Whenever a customer brings in a part that they suspect to be a problem, it is wise to consider it broken or bad. Take it apart, clean/degrease, ohm check, call customer with quote. A good wrench will always replace brushes in a starter during a tear down. When you pull the armature out for inspection, the brushes fall out. They can't be missed. It sounds as though you have found a good tech to deal with in the future. Enough said.

Skipper Dave
s/v Gusto