I'm thinking about buying a new spinnaker for my 26.5 that I use primarily for lake racing. I usually race with inexperienced crew or short handed. Presently I'm using a J-24 symetrical,but this can be a handful when the winds increase. Does anyone have experience comparing symetrical vs. asym under similiar conditions? Also, please comment on likes or dislikes of the spinnaker sleeve(sock) for handling either of the above mentioned sails.
- Status
OK
First, a symetrical spinnaker is used for running from DDW to a close reach. An Asymetrical (Akite) is used only for broad reaching from about 110* and can reach up to as close as 40*. Second, the Akite is easier for a novice crew to learn because you don't have to have a pole. You will, however have to learn to jibe inside or outside and practice the maneuver. Outside jibes are easier but take longer. Third, the sock is completely useless when racing. It takes way too much time. Your Akite is so small that it is very easy to handle without a sock. If you do windward/leeward racing, there is no choice, you must have a symetrical. If you're doing bouy racing where often times one offwind leg is favored then the Akite works.
First, a symetrical spinnaker is used for running from DDW to a close reach. An Asymetrical (Akite) is used only for broad reaching from about 110* and can reach up to as close as 40*. Second, the Akite is easier for a novice crew to learn because you don't have to have a pole. You will, however have to learn to jibe inside or outside and practice the maneuver. Outside jibes are easier but take longer. Third, the sock is completely useless when racing. It takes way too much time. Your Akite is so small that it is very easy to handle without a sock. If you do windward/leeward racing, there is no choice, you must have a symetrical. If you're doing bouy racing where often times one offwind leg is favored then the Akite works.
Charles
Email me off site I have something you might want. cliffr@sbcglobal.net CLiff Ruckstuhl Hunter 28.5 "Red Dog"
Email me off site I have something you might want. cliffr@sbcglobal.net CLiff Ruckstuhl Hunter 28.5 "Red Dog"
Sockit
Definately like the sock. Two perfect times to have the sock:1) short or inexperienced crew and 2) marginal wind zone-ie the wind is strong enough that you are not really sure whether you want to try it or not. I don't use my Akite a whole whole lot, but I use it twice as much now that I have the sock.
Definately like the sock. Two perfect times to have the sock:1) short or inexperienced crew and 2) marginal wind zone-ie the wind is strong enough that you are not really sure whether you want to try it or not. I don't use my Akite a whole whole lot, but I use it twice as much now that I have the sock.
Asym for me
Sym requires the help of a crew. You can sail an asym yourself, tho tricky. Asmy is safer and easier to deploy. Nothing more than a giant genoa. You'll get more angles off the wind. Defintely get the sock. If you want to add a bowsprit, let me know. bodonovan@vagazette.com
Sym requires the help of a crew. You can sail an asym yourself, tho tricky. Asmy is safer and easier to deploy. Nothing more than a giant genoa. You'll get more angles off the wind. Defintely get the sock. If you want to add a bowsprit, let me know. bodonovan@vagazette.com
All those thoughts are nice but..
.. nobody answered his question. Can he use an Akite for racing and what's the difference between an akite and a symetrical?? Anyone with experiense comparing the two? All of these posts refer to guys who don't race and never use a symetrical spinnaker.
.. nobody answered his question. Can he use an Akite for racing and what's the difference between an akite and a symetrical?? Anyone with experiense comparing the two? All of these posts refer to guys who don't race and never use a symetrical spinnaker.
The Answer
Both Kite's can be used for racing but need to be reported to ther PHRF Committe. The Sym Kite will allow you to sail deeper angles down wind. But needs a crew to fly it not to mention all the gear. What the Asy offers is sailing faster down wind with less people and is easier to handle but with not as deep of angles. But you are sailing faster. You just need to pay close attention to where your going. What the Asy offer's is sailing faster with less crew. If you look at the current class of J boats they are being made with to fly a Asy Kite. All of this is refering to sailing just down wind. The Asy will be a screamer on a reach and becasue of it's shape will sail faster then a Sym Spinnaker. Most Sym Kite's are designed as down wind sail's. With the Asy you end up with a more useable sail. We have flown our Asy with just 2 of us on the boat, something we would have a very tough time to do with a Sym sail. For us the Asy Kite is a more useable sail that we fly all the time. Not to mention the B & R rig on most of the boats. This rig does hamper sailng deep angle down wind. Cliff H 28.5 "Red Dog"
Both Kite's can be used for racing but need to be reported to ther PHRF Committe. The Sym Kite will allow you to sail deeper angles down wind. But needs a crew to fly it not to mention all the gear. What the Asy offers is sailing faster down wind with less people and is easier to handle but with not as deep of angles. But you are sailing faster. You just need to pay close attention to where your going. What the Asy offer's is sailing faster with less crew. If you look at the current class of J boats they are being made with to fly a Asy Kite. All of this is refering to sailing just down wind. The Asy will be a screamer on a reach and becasue of it's shape will sail faster then a Sym Spinnaker. Most Sym Kite's are designed as down wind sail's. With the Asy you end up with a more useable sail. We have flown our Asy with just 2 of us on the boat, something we would have a very tough time to do with a Sym sail. For us the Asy Kite is a more useable sail that we fly all the time. Not to mention the B & R rig on most of the boats. This rig does hamper sailng deep angle down wind. Cliff H 28.5 "Red Dog"
A good answer, Cliff
..and given the choice of no spinn downwind or an Akite because of crew issues then by all means use the Akite. Howerver, on a windward/leeward course the Akite has little chance against symetrical spinnakers. Yes, its true that the sprit J boats carry big Akites that they use in ODR, but they soon found out that in most PHRF races they needed to also carry the standard spinnaker to have a chance. There are also certain tactics that can be employed by the Akite boat to gain advantage. First heading up to build boat speed and then running off a bit to soak. As the speed drops off, the procedure is repeated. The Melges 24 uses this technique to great advantage. Granted they have a hull that will plane very easily and that is why these 24 footers can reach speeds of 25+ kts.
..and given the choice of no spinn downwind or an Akite because of crew issues then by all means use the Akite. Howerver, on a windward/leeward course the Akite has little chance against symetrical spinnakers. Yes, its true that the sprit J boats carry big Akites that they use in ODR, but they soon found out that in most PHRF races they needed to also carry the standard spinnaker to have a chance. There are also certain tactics that can be employed by the Akite boat to gain advantage. First heading up to build boat speed and then running off a bit to soak. As the speed drops off, the procedure is repeated. The Melges 24 uses this technique to great advantage. Granted they have a hull that will plane very easily and that is why these 24 footers can reach speeds of 25+ kts.
Alan
We have traded some Emails and tend to monitor the Racing part of the HOW site. You would be one of the guy's I would love to race against. I have about 5 boats that I race against all season long and most of the time success on the race course is measured not in if we finish in the top three but how we measured up against our friends and the other 5 boats. Like you we tend to race against the same people and get used to seeing the same boats at all the regatta's. Ther are about 5 of us out of a 10-15 boat fleet that are dukeing it out all season long. When we don't finish in the top 3 thats ok as long as we beat most of our closest competitor's. When one of our nemises finish in the top 3 we are almost as excited as they are. Always glad to see them do well. I enjoy reading your post and find you to be on top of your game which is why you have had allot of success. Racing against guy's like you is what makes this sport such a thrilling event in my life. At the end of each season I take a look to see how we faired against the group of 5. If I have beaten them more than they me than it was a very successful season. I would love to put you in the Group of 5 that I race against. Cliff Ruckstuhl Hunter 28.5 "Red Dog"
We have traded some Emails and tend to monitor the Racing part of the HOW site. You would be one of the guy's I would love to race against. I have about 5 boats that I race against all season long and most of the time success on the race course is measured not in if we finish in the top three but how we measured up against our friends and the other 5 boats. Like you we tend to race against the same people and get used to seeing the same boats at all the regatta's. Ther are about 5 of us out of a 10-15 boat fleet that are dukeing it out all season long. When we don't finish in the top 3 thats ok as long as we beat most of our closest competitor's. When one of our nemises finish in the top 3 we are almost as excited as they are. Always glad to see them do well. I enjoy reading your post and find you to be on top of your game which is why you have had allot of success. Racing against guy's like you is what makes this sport such a thrilling event in my life. At the end of each season I take a look to see how we faired against the group of 5. If I have beaten them more than they me than it was a very successful season. I would love to put you in the Group of 5 that I race against. Cliff Ruckstuhl Hunter 28.5 "Red Dog"
Thanks Cliff for the high praise
I too enjoy the competition of racing good boats. It's what makes us better sailors. To me theres no glory in beating boats with big plow anchors hanging off the bow and a dodger and bimini up. I'm after the the guys with double digit phrf ratings. I know that when I race these boats I'm in for a battle, but that's what makes it so exciting. In one of the local fall series the J105s had their own class of about 20 boats. On a couple of legs of the course we found ourselves in the middle of the 105 fleet beating to the weather mark. When we reached the weather mark there were only 3 of them ahead of us which made me feel pretty good considering they phrf out at 87. Wish there was some way I could get to race on the Great Lakes. I hear there are some great boats on the lakes. What sort of mods have you put into your boat? I have a good friend who owned a 28.5 that he went nuts with and stipped the boat down and put a custom keel on. Then he made the mistake of letting his wife drive and she hit a huge underwater rock and nearly ripped the keel off. He must have had 250 man/hours on the bottom alone.
I too enjoy the competition of racing good boats. It's what makes us better sailors. To me theres no glory in beating boats with big plow anchors hanging off the bow and a dodger and bimini up. I'm after the the guys with double digit phrf ratings. I know that when I race these boats I'm in for a battle, but that's what makes it so exciting. In one of the local fall series the J105s had their own class of about 20 boats. On a couple of legs of the course we found ourselves in the middle of the 105 fleet beating to the weather mark. When we reached the weather mark there were only 3 of them ahead of us which made me feel pretty good considering they phrf out at 87. Wish there was some way I could get to race on the Great Lakes. I hear there are some great boats on the lakes. What sort of mods have you put into your boat? I have a good friend who owned a 28.5 that he went nuts with and stipped the boat down and put a custom keel on. Then he made the mistake of letting his wife drive and she hit a huge underwater rock and nearly ripped the keel off. He must have had 250 man/hours on the bottom alone.
My 28.5
I remember you mentioning your frinds 28.5. I am not able to go to that extreme. We need our boat to be a home away from home on weekends. But we have done all that we can to make her fast and are getting better every year. The piece of the puzzle left is crew work. When I have good crew on the boat we do well. I am working with IdaSailer now for a new rudder. I have done the usual 400 grit bottom faired keel fast bottom paint New Full set of UK tape Drives. All the right running rigging. CLiff "Red Dog"
I remember you mentioning your frinds 28.5. I am not able to go to that extreme. We need our boat to be a home away from home on weekends. But we have done all that we can to make her fast and are getting better every year. The piece of the puzzle left is crew work. When I have good crew on the boat we do well. I am working with IdaSailer now for a new rudder. I have done the usual 400 grit bottom faired keel fast bottom paint New Full set of UK tape Drives. All the right running rigging. CLiff "Red Dog"
I hear you with the weekender thing.
What I have are several large plastic containers that all the cruising stuff is kept in. When we want to go cruising we bring all these containers to the dock and load up. But afterwards everything thats not "racing gear" comes off and the bags of racing sails come back onboard, the water tank is emptied, and the anchor comes off the bow roller. We carry an aluminum Fortress FX-7 for racing requirements which only weighs a few pounds and is stored below the floorboards. I'm hoping to be able to race to Bermuda this coming June. So far all the crew seems very excited about the trip. It's a big time and money commitment, but one that I've been looking forward to for a few years.
What I have are several large plastic containers that all the cruising stuff is kept in. When we want to go cruising we bring all these containers to the dock and load up. But afterwards everything thats not "racing gear" comes off and the bags of racing sails come back onboard, the water tank is emptied, and the anchor comes off the bow roller. We carry an aluminum Fortress FX-7 for racing requirements which only weighs a few pounds and is stored below the floorboards. I'm hoping to be able to race to Bermuda this coming June. So far all the crew seems very excited about the trip. It's a big time and money commitment, but one that I've been looking forward to for a few years.
Good Idea
on the plastic container's I will be looking into doing that and removing all that is not needed on the boat. Raicng to Bermuda would be allot of fun. Sailing on the Great Lakes is really nice always clean water and the farther North you go the clearer it get's. But the best thing about it is we are top of the food chain. Nothing below the surface that thinks of us as lunch. Cliff
on the plastic container's I will be looking into doing that and removing all that is not needed on the boat. Raicng to Bermuda would be allot of fun. Sailing on the Great Lakes is really nice always clean water and the farther North you go the clearer it get's. But the best thing about it is we are top of the food chain. Nothing below the surface that thinks of us as lunch. Cliff
HaHa the thought never crossed my mind
On LI Sound there really isn't much to worry about. In open ocean racing, I would be much more worried about getting back onboard than what's out there looking for lunch. A much bigger consideration are those floating containers that hang just below the surface. Hitting one of them would probably sink the boat and from what I understand there are thousands of them out there. Definately will have our liferaft and EPIRB up to date.
On LI Sound there really isn't much to worry about. In open ocean racing, I would be much more worried about getting back onboard than what's out there looking for lunch. A much bigger consideration are those floating containers that hang just below the surface. Hitting one of them would probably sink the boat and from what I understand there are thousands of them out there. Definately will have our liferaft and EPIRB up to date.
my experience
I have an asymetrical and a pole. We have flown the "akite" with the pole at both the clew and the tack. Seems to fly alright, probably not as efficient as a symetrical, but OK. We rig sheets for both situations, flying with the tack at the bow and beam reaching, and for using the pole. We decide in races which way to go, depending on the course and the wind direction.
I have an asymetrical and a pole. We have flown the "akite" with the pole at both the clew and the tack. Seems to fly alright, probably not as efficient as a symetrical, but OK. We rig sheets for both situations, flying with the tack at the bow and beam reaching, and for using the pole. We decide in races which way to go, depending on the course and the wind direction.
AC boats don't...
.. carry symetrical kites at all. They are all asymetrical even though they have a pole up. True there are differences between their kites and ours but it just goes to show how the thinking changes.
.. carry symetrical kites at all. They are all asymetrical even though they have a pole up. True there are differences between their kites and ours but it just goes to show how the thinking changes.
Depends on Race Course and Crew
The choice between the two will depend on the race course and the crew. Closewinded legs: If the course has legs that are close to the wind where the symetrical can't fly, or fly easily but the asymetrical can fly, then the asymetrical is the choice. Leg Length: If the legs are short then this would give the advantage to the asymetrical because of setup and dousing time. If the legs are long then this would give the advantage to the symetrical spinnaker. Number of legs: If you have two or more legs then the symetrical sail must be repacked, taking crew away from sailing for a while. With the asymetrical this isn't nearly as crucial. With two sails you could fly the symetrical on one lap and the asymetrical on the other lap when you're short-handed. Wind strength: If the races are typically in light winds then the standard spinnaker would be best but in heavier winds the asymetrical would be better. On a small boat you don't want the crew running around upseting balance and a sysmetrical spinaker with it's additional equipment that has to be setup and taken down will cause more problems. Crew: If the crew is coordinated and skilled then the symetrical would be good but if you have difficulty with the fordeck crew then you don't want to mess around with a pole and the extra lines, snatch blocks, etc. and adjustments. Wave action: If there are water skiers and power boats creating non-standard waves (not wind waves) this will knock the wind out of your flying sail and make it more difficult to keep trimed. If there are many of these interferences then I'd opt for the asymetrical. Wind shifts: speaking of wind problems, lakes tend to have more fluky winds so if there are major wind shifts (near a point, for example) then an asymetrical would be easier to fly. I've been in situations where I was flying my symetrical and just flying along then ran into a wind line and got hit with a wind from another direction and got back-winded. Not a fund thing. Sail area: the symetrical spinnaker has quite a bit more sail area than the asymetrical and this is the engine that makes the boat go. Since the rules don't distinguish betweent the two the symetrical in combination with a well honed crew and the appropriate conditions will make the boat faster. Ideally it would be good to have both sails in your arsenal.
The choice between the two will depend on the race course and the crew. Closewinded legs: If the course has legs that are close to the wind where the symetrical can't fly, or fly easily but the asymetrical can fly, then the asymetrical is the choice. Leg Length: If the legs are short then this would give the advantage to the asymetrical because of setup and dousing time. If the legs are long then this would give the advantage to the symetrical spinnaker. Number of legs: If you have two or more legs then the symetrical sail must be repacked, taking crew away from sailing for a while. With the asymetrical this isn't nearly as crucial. With two sails you could fly the symetrical on one lap and the asymetrical on the other lap when you're short-handed. Wind strength: If the races are typically in light winds then the standard spinnaker would be best but in heavier winds the asymetrical would be better. On a small boat you don't want the crew running around upseting balance and a sysmetrical spinaker with it's additional equipment that has to be setup and taken down will cause more problems. Crew: If the crew is coordinated and skilled then the symetrical would be good but if you have difficulty with the fordeck crew then you don't want to mess around with a pole and the extra lines, snatch blocks, etc. and adjustments. Wave action: If there are water skiers and power boats creating non-standard waves (not wind waves) this will knock the wind out of your flying sail and make it more difficult to keep trimed. If there are many of these interferences then I'd opt for the asymetrical. Wind shifts: speaking of wind problems, lakes tend to have more fluky winds so if there are major wind shifts (near a point, for example) then an asymetrical would be easier to fly. I've been in situations where I was flying my symetrical and just flying along then ran into a wind line and got hit with a wind from another direction and got back-winded. Not a fund thing. Sail area: the symetrical spinnaker has quite a bit more sail area than the asymetrical and this is the engine that makes the boat go. Since the rules don't distinguish betweent the two the symetrical in combination with a well honed crew and the appropriate conditions will make the boat faster. Ideally it would be good to have both sails in your arsenal.
Fred - Port Ludlow Hunter Rendezvous
Fred - what did I do now?? By any chance did you go to the Port Ludlow Hunter Rendezvous in 1989?
Fred - what did I do now?? By any chance did you go to the Port Ludlow Hunter Rendezvous in 1989?
John, I'm not sure of the year, but yes, that's
close. The new dealer put it on. Our dealer gave up the franchise. Good riddance. I recall something else too,,,,let's see,,,OH YEAH! The race! We started last and finished FIRST. OK, OK. I know, there was a 'no luffing' rule.
But we still WON! The prize was that Lifesling seen on my web site. OK, why do you ask? Have we met? (besides online)
close. The new dealer put it on. Our dealer gave up the franchise. Good riddance. I recall something else too,,,,let's see,,,OH YEAH! The race! We started last and finished FIRST. OK, OK. I know, there was a 'no luffing' rule.
But we still WON! The prize was that Lifesling seen on my web site. OK, why do you ask? Have we met? (besides online)- Status