stay with tiller or convert to wheel ?

[pcjrusso]

I am new at sailing last summer I purchased my first sail boat a 1984 Catalina 27 tiller steer. I am going to spend some of my tax return on the boat. I would love to hear from experienced sailors their thoughts of either a tiller raymaine ST 2000 autopilot $ 700 or converting to a Edson Wheel system $ 1700 I am leaning towards converting to the wheel. We are planning on keep the boat 3-5 years. Thanks in advance

 

[RichH]

Keep the tiller, buy the autopilot.

The Cat 27 due its narrow beam has a small (width) cockpit. The width of c'pit will dictate that only a smallish wheel can be installed. The tiller gives you the following advantages:Since the Cat27 has a balanced scimitar type spade rudder, you should have a nicely balanced helm to begin with.... a wheel is going to reduce the sensitivty/feedback from that 'ideal' rudder. With a tiller extension you can sit on the cockpit coaming/rail and 'precisely' sail the boat by watching the telltales or the shape of the luff. To keep the boat on course with a tiller (or extension) you sit on the SIDE and *pull* slightly with the fingertips. The FEEDBACK you will get from a tiller into your fingertips 'is the essence' of sailing. With a wheel you sit 'behind' it, will have difficulty watching the sails and if you sit on the side you have to continually PUSH the top of the wheel .... pushing is very tiring. If you have a dodger, you can sit UNDER the dodger in rainy weather and still be able to steer. With a wheel ... well, better have good foul weather gear. A linear actuator type tiller pilot is cheap and easily mounted to a tiller. You inevitably "will" in future add an autopilot, and those for wheels are more expensive and more complicated. Since you're 'new' at sailing, I'd recommend keeping the tiller ... which will greatly accelerate your learning curve. With a wheel there is ALWAYS some level of friction in such systems which you have to 'fight' .... and you will miss the 'finesse' of rapidly developing good helmsmanship from a balanced spade rudder and a tiller. OK if later you want to move up to or change to a wheel because once you have that 'tiller experience' you will remember the subtleties that make sailing a boat with a balanced spade rudder with a tiller such a joy. You wont experience this with a wheel to the degree that you get with a tiller: feedback, subtle pressures, etc.With a tiller 'helmsmanship' is quite simple to *master"; if you start out with a wheel you may never know that there is something called 'helmsmanship'. Once you master a tiller by using 'fingertips', etc. .... every other steering methodology or device that you encounter in the future - you will compare/contrast to the simplicty, ease, feedback, ...... of a tiller. Tillers are for sailors; steering wheels are for boats that have badly balanced rudders, for busdrivers and for RV drivers. <grin> 

 

[Ross]

RichH, I have a six spoke bronze wheel

that controls my boat even when I walk away from the helm. I am not a bus driver and I don't have and have never driven an RV. We get far too many blanket opinions here that are only that and have little to do with true tests of the systems in discussion.

 

[Fred]

Keep the tiller, 'cause it's there.

On a C27, it's nice to lift the tiller up out of the cockpit for the 95% of the time you're hanging out or anchored out on the boat.If you want to use an autopilot, which I sure do, the unit for the tiller is about a thousand bucks cheeaper than for a wheel.I love wheel steering. It's easier, and once you know your boat, I think the small adjustments in steering, especially to weather, can be done better than fighting a tiller as you go over each wave. Pressures on the rudder change constantly. Even if the sails are trimmed well, the rudder will kick as the boat moves over waves. (18 to 20 knot breeze and up)You will have plenty of things to spend you boat bucks on. How about a cruising spinaker or a really light drifter jib? Self tailing winches are nice, too.My 2 C27s and Newport 30 had tillers, as well as many smaller boats. I had a Catalina 38 with wheel on cable steering. I presently have a Morgan 41 with a wheel on hydraulic steering. The hydraulic is really nice, but expensive to install, I think.All the above boats have been fine to sail. I wouldn't spend the time and money to change to a wheel for the small difference it makes.

 

[Fred]

Which autopilot?

I used the smaller autohelm on both the C27 and Newport 30. Worked fine. I never used the tillerpilot to tack, and I had to steer downwind if there was any wave action, but that's how it is with most autopilots. I don't think you need the 2000 for a C27. Put it as far out on the tiller as possible so it has more lever arm.

 

[sailortonyb]

Keep the tiller.

I have had both so I can make a comparison. I liked the tiller best because you can feel the boat. You will know when the boat is perfectlt balanced. Then again, I always liked a stick shift when i lived up north so that i could feel my traction in snow and ice. As others have said, the tiller will give you more room when at the dock, the tiller autopilot is way way cheaper than a wheel pilot, someday when you go to sell the boat, you will get back some of your money for the tiller pilot but you will get nothing back for the wheel steering costs. And finally, most women dont like a tiller, i think its the thinking backwards thing with them. My GF would only steer the tiller in open water, but with a wheel, she loves going under open bridges and sometimes she will attempt a docking. Tony B

 

[Benny]

Keep the tiller and get the autopilot.

The wheel steering via mechanical purchase reduces rudder presure transmited to the helmsman. The bigger the boat the larger the pressure so wheel steering may be a necessesity for larger boats but not for the C-27. The cockpits of tiller and wheel boats were usually designed differently to maximize the space for each application. Boats with tillers do not usually have helm seats and boats with wheels may have cut outs in the seats to accomodate the wheel. Substituting one steering system for another does not really add much but the addition of the autopilot opens up a lot of possibilities for your sailing. It's like having an extra crew member who can steer for hours on end. It extends your range by reducing fatigue and can allow you you to move around the boat and do things. When single handling I used to "heave to" to prepare and eat lunch, with the autopilot I can cook and eat on the fly. The autopilot is not the answer for everything but having one sure beats not having one. As an incentive you will be saving some money as it is much cheaper to add a pilot to a tiller that to a wheel.

 

[TT23844]

Wheel vs tiller

Having sailed a number of boats with tillers, when I went hunting for a new-to-me boat in '03 I placed wheel steering fairly high on the list of features I wanted. Bought an O'Day 27 that had been retro-fitted with an Edson wheel.Certainly nice to have a big compass on top of the binnacle to steer by, and having the engine controls right at hand is also a plus, but after a while I found that I preferred sailing with a tiller. The wheel is probably better under power, but seems less responsive under sail. To convert from tiller to wheel and to do the job properly involves a bit of work: the cockpit floor will probably have to be beefed up as a wheel/pedestal can inmpose a lot of concentrated loading; the quadrant, cables & sheaves take up space in an area that's already cramped ( it shure is cramped to work on ); you'll probably want a split backstay to give you some headroom when standing at the helm.Etc etc etc. On smaller boats like ours, I think there's a lot to be said for keeping things simple. I've got the thing and wouldn't convert back, but I really doubt that it's worth the trouble or expense to change from tiller to wheel. A wheel takes up a lot of cockpit room too: when I leave the helm to go fwd or into the cabin I have to hop up on the cockpit seat to get around the bloody wheel, so when on the hook or mooring I take the wheel off and hang it somewhere out of the way.

 

[Bill Roosa]

Cramping up an laready narrow boat

I love wheel steering but found that it really takes up a lot of room in the cockpit. Constantly having to "walk around the wheel" and loosing the space at anchor are things to be carefully considered.

 

[pcjrusso]

Thank you All !!!!!!!!!!!

With all your help and input we are going to stay with the tiller and add the auto pilot.

 

[Alex]

Wheel vs tiller

Even ocean racers stay with tillers. Must better feel.Just a quiz: Have you watched the Titanic and wonder why the officer yell "hard to starboard" when the ship was going to hit the iceberg on starboard? It is because the proper way to bark out command is based on the tiller not the wheels.On my previous boat I had a Simrad TP20 with remote (on sale at the time). I single hand most of the time and a tiller pilot works wonders. At anchor I can fold the tiller up and leave the entire cockpit open for gathering.

 

[Benny]

Point well made , Ross.

But with that number of turns lock to lock you must have arms like Popeye. Ypu can put that wheel back in your mantle. I have been a long time advocate of downsizing steering wheels to save space. A few inches can mean the difference for being able to walk around the wheel or having to climb up on the seats to get around. A large wheel is more forgiving and provides additional leaverage but I find that for me those two qualities are not really necessary. If I oversteer a little and kill 1/8 of a knot of speed who cares and 95% of the time I don't need the extra leaverage and for that 5% I can make adjustments in course and speed. Older boats used to come with small wheels and adjusted for it by its turning ratio increasing the number of turns from lock to lock. I installed a comfortable helm chair and have no desire to steer from the sides. Why spend $$$ in a folding wheel when all you may have to do is get a smaller one. Cool photo, I enjoyed it.

 

[Benny]

Ross, I apologize as I had not magnified

the picture and seen that you have a true stern steerer. It originally looked like the wheel was attached to the pedestal. Your turning ratio is a little tight but I'm sure it works well for you. I like the excellent visibility when backing such a boat up. Still love the picture.

 

[Ross]

Benny, the wheel gives me the same mechanical

advantage as i would get from a six foot long tiller. One delightful advantage is that when motoring I stand on the quarter deck and steer with one foot. The boat will hold course for a mile without touching the wheel. The wheel is 16 inchs across the ends of the spokes. I have since the picture was taken made a pedistal guard so that I am not tempted to grab the engine control for support. As to the strength needed to steer with that small wheel Nancy weighs 130 and prefers to steer rather than just going along for the ride.

 

[Ross]

Alex, I believe that the command is

"turn right to 327" or Turn left to 183" It avoids the confusion of which way to steer. : On the Titanic the order shoild have been " EMERGENCY hard left rudder"

 

[filthy liberal scum]

one thing that hasn't been mentioned here!

each system has its good points and bad. it has been mentioned that the bigger the boat the more effort to steer. that's way off base. the amount of effort has to do with the design of the rudder and the overall design of the keel and rig. as mentioned some ocean racers use tillers, and most times they're 40ft plus. the J-35 uses a tiller. the amount of effort required to turn a rudder is directly related to the center of effort of the cord shape and the pivot point in front of it for the rudder post. picture a flat piece of wood 12" wide and put the pivot IE the rudder post 2" back from the leading edge. imagine the effort to turn it while moving. now put it 6" back from the leading edge. obviously it takes a lot more effort in the former position. want more tech info read "basics of Yacht design" in most cases the effort to lessen rudder pressure is a matter of design. there are other factors that have to be dealt with also, such as the balance of the boat. and this has a lot to do with the placement of the rig and rake to balance it with the center of lateral resistance of the keel and under body of the hull. On my O'day 30 which has a tiller, it originally had a lot of resistance to turning it. in a blow it took two hands and a strong back to steer it. then through a lot of research i found out that the designer had changed the orig design. guess what, later models steered a lot easier. for you techies he changed it from a 0010-34 chord profile to a 0018 and moved the pivot point of the rudder post, he also moved the mast 4" forward to solve weather helm problem. basically the 0010 profile is a low lift-low drag shape that works just great on a supersonic aircraft. i had to rebuild my rudder because of damage so i decided, what the hell. i rebuilt it to the later design factors with some slight mods to the pivot point. now even in a blow i can steer with just two fingers on the tiller. pivot point on rudder is now just slightly forward of neutral so as to give some feel of resistance.S/V Que Pasa?

 

[Ross]

Let your new sailing buddies buy the beer

you bought the Damn boat for cryin-out-loud. ;D

 

[Wanderer138]

Tiller

Use the money for something more worthwhile.PeterH23 "Raven"

 

[NautiDuck]

Two reasons for the wheel

1. Have you ever seen Johnny Depp holding a tiller?2. You can install a pedestal guard and hang things on it like your nav gear, VHF, drink holders, table, etc which make the cockpit a more useful space and which bring your instruments right to you instead of far away on the bulkhead or, worse, in the cabin.

 

[abe]

Your boat is worth 7-10k. Is it worth investing...

1700?