SIMPLE AC Distribution Panel?

druid

.
Apr 22, 2009
837
Ontario 32 Pender Harbour
Some people may have noticed I said "fuses" in the last post: Yes, this boat has a VERY "old-school" (but legal) AC distribution panel: a big 30A switch/breaker followed by 2 15 A fused circuits. I'd like to replace it with a panel with breakers instead, but I can't find one that's SIMPLE: they all have like 10 ccts, Shorepower/Generator switch, and so on and cost like $800.
Is there one with JUST the 30A main breaker and 2 x 15A (actually I can use 20A) circuits?

druid
 
May 24, 2004
7,173
CC 30 South Florida
Any commercially available panel will be expensive. Have you given a thought to just purchasing the breakers, LED indicators and a piece of wood or acrylic and making your own at a cost of around $150?
 
  • Like
Likes: agprice22

druid

.
Apr 22, 2009
837
Ontario 32 Pender Harbour
Why not ask Phil at the SBO store right here to price a Blue Seas 8102?

Here is the description:

https://www.bluesea.com/products/8102/ELCI_Main_30A_Double_Pole_+_2_Positions_with_Voltmeter

Charles
WHY is this panel CDN$500? I see about $100 in parts (breakers are like $20 each, there's a $20 voltmeter, a few $.20 LEDs...)
I have considered making the panel myself, but it's hard to find a small enough "backplane" for the breakers. But at $500, I'm definitely leaning in that direction...

druid
 

druid

.
Apr 22, 2009
837
Ontario 32 Pender Harbour
Paneltronics 3 position. Can be had for less than $150 (us) and it comes with breakers. I installed one in my boat, along with all new DC panels from paneltronics too.

https://www.paneltronics.com/Electrical_Panels.asp?op=ProductSearch&item=2313
That looks like exactly what I'm looking for! Unfortunately, they basically don't ship to Canada. I'll see if I can find a Canadian Distributor.

I can see 3 ccts instead of 2 might be useful, but 6 is WAY off. Right now I'm essentially using ONE cct (the second one is a single outlet in the head, which is useless to me). I was going to put the water heater on a "galley" cct, common with the microwave (with a switch to turn if off if I was using the microwave), and the second in the nav station for battery charger, sometimes heater, and all the little things like laptop chargers. But I could see using a dedicated cct for the water heater (then the breaker would be the switch), a galley cct for the microwave, and the nav station cct for the rest.
After all, it's only a 30A system: I wouldn't be able to run the water heater, microwave and heater at the same time no matter how many ccts I had! And I set up my boats so most stuff runs off 12 VDC so I can use it when I'm at anchor. (I have TWELVE 12 VDC ccts!)

druid
 
Dec 25, 2000
5,932
Hunter Passage 42 Shelter Bay, WA
That looks like exactly what I'm looking for! Unfortunately, they basically don't ship to Canada. I'll see if I can find a Canadian Distributor.
Others beat me to a Paneltronics solution. Hunter use them for years on their boats including ours. It seems that I recall ordering parts direct from them (analog DC ammeter) and they (at least then) will ship to Semi-ah-moo Marina. Just do not bring wifey to pick up the part. :dancing:

Ditto here. I have always used just one 30amp shore power cord (boat is setup for two) and managed power consumption accordingly. I always keep an eye on the analog AC ammeter, keeping consumption under 30. There were a couple of times when we first purchased the boat I did not pay attention, and well you know what happens.
 
Last edited:
Jan 11, 2014
12,958
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
WHY is this panel CDN$500? I see about $100 in parts (breakers are like $20 each, there's a $20 voltmeter, a few $.20 LEDs...)
I have considered making the panel myself, but it's hard to find a small enough "backplane" for the breakers. But at $500, I'm definitely leaning in that direction...
druid
Don't be misled by the Suggested Retail Price on the Blue Seas Website. Blue Seas Products are routinely sold at a pretty good discount ~40% off list. Also, adding a meter to the panel significantly increases the cost. Not sure how valuable an analog AC volt meter really is. You will need to have a polarity indicator and GFCIs either on the panel on in the outlets.

Here's one that is more reasonably priced: http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1|328|2290000|2290004&id=1521619

Edit: Just took another look at the Blue Seas 8102. The big cost is the ELCI main breaker. These suckers are expensive but an important part of AC safety requirements now. Required by ABYC on new builds.
 

druid

.
Apr 22, 2009
837
Ontario 32 Pender Harbour
Don't be misled by the Suggested Retail Price on the Blue Seas Website. Blue Seas Products are routinely sold at a pretty good discount ~40% off list. Also, adding a meter to the panel significantly increases the cost. Not sure how valuable an analog AC volt meter really is. You will need to have a polarity indicator and GFCIs either on the panel on in the outlets.

Here's one that is more reasonably priced: http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1|328|2290000|2290004&id=1521619

Edit: Just took another look at the Blue Seas 8102. The big cost is the ELCI main breaker. These suckers are expensive but an important part of AC safety requirements now. Required by ABYC on new builds.
AC Voltmeter is pretty much useless - all you need is a light to tell you if there's power. And it SHOULDN'T add much to the cost - an AC Panel-meter is about $30.

From what I can see, an ELCI is the same as a GFCI (detects differences in current between hot and neutral, which is A Good Thing.) But a GFCI outlet can be had for $30 or so, so the ELCI shouldn't be THAT expensive. I'll look more into it (ALL my outlets are GFCI, but I don't have an ELCI in my current panel).

druid
 
Jan 18, 2016
782
Catalina 387 Dana Point
I got my paneltronics panels from Amazon. (Cheapest at the time) Maybe that'd get to Canada...
 
Jan 11, 2014
12,958
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
AC Voltmeter is pretty much useless - all you need is a light to tell you if there's power. And it SHOULDN'T add much to the cost - an AC Panel-meter is about $30.

From what I can see, an ELCI is the same as a GFCI (detects differences in current between hot and neutral, which is A Good Thing.) But a GFCI outlet can be had for $30 or so, so the ELCI shouldn't be THAT expensive. I'll look more into it (ALL my outlets are GFCI, but I don't have an ELCI in my current panel).

druid
It is a boat. Everything is more expensive. The cost of an ELCI is about $140. Near as I can tell only Blue Sea makes them. New technology + limited market + little competition = higher price.

On the other hand if you do the math, a double pole 30A breaker is about $80, plus the cost of a GFCI at $30, the price doesn't seem quite as outrageous, only about $30 over the cost of a 30A breaker and a GFCI.
 

druid

.
Apr 22, 2009
837
Ontario 32 Pender Harbour
ok, RANT time...

Once again, ABYC throws a regulation at us without thinking, and as a result we all have to go out and spend a LOT of money so we're "ABYC Compliant" even though it's useless.
I looked up ELCI systems, and they're meant for EQUIPMENT safety, not personnel. Why? Because they're typically set at 20-30 mA difference, and anyone in the electrical industry will tell you electrocution can occur with MUCH less than 20 mA (some say as little as 5-7 mA). THAT'S WHY GFCI's ARE SET AT 4-6 mA! ELCI's are useless for personnel safety, but because some idiot at ABYC thought they sounded like a Good Idea, we now all have to go out and buy them. (I don't know about USA, but in Canada if you're not ABYC Compliant you can't get insurance. No insurance, no moorage.)
I can come up with 1/2 dozen other ABYC regulations that are useless or sometimes downright dangerous. But... "Resistance is Futile" - there can be no argument if someone puts a "Safety" sticker on it.

druid
 
Jan 11, 2014
12,958
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
ok, RANT time...

Once again, ABYC throws a regulation at us without thinking, and as a result we all have to go out and spend a LOT of money so we're "ABYC Compliant" even though it's useless.
I looked up ELCI systems, and they're meant for EQUIPMENT safety, not personnel. Why? Because they're typically set at 20-30 mA difference, and anyone in the electrical industry will tell you electrocution can occur with MUCH less than 20 mA (some say as little as 5-7 mA). THAT'S WHY GFCI's ARE SET AT 4-6 mA! ELCI's are useless for personnel safety, but because some idiot at ABYC thought they sounded like a Good Idea, we now all have to go out and buy them. (I don't know about USA, but in Canada if you're not ABYC Compliant you can't get insurance. No insurance, no moorage.)
I can come up with 1/2 dozen other ABYC regulations that are useless or sometimes downright dangerous. But... "Resistance is Futile" - there can be no argument if someone puts a "Safety" sticker on it.

druid
My cursory reading of the ELCI rationale says that it is really to protect the metal in a boat and people who go swimming in marinas. Protecting the metal is a noble cause (pun intended) and in the other case I'm willing to let Darwin work his magic, although it puts rescuers at risk, not such a noble cause.

Your questions about the ELCI requirement might be well placed in the Musings With Maine Sail forum. I, for one, would be interested in hearing his thoughts. Perhaps you could post it there.
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,709
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
Once again, ABYC throws a regulation at us without thinking, (snip)
but because some idiot at ABYC thought they sounded like a Good Idea,
(snip) I can come up with 1/2 dozen other ABYC regulations that are useless or sometimes downright dangerous.

You'd be best to do some research on the subject, so you actually know something about the ABYC, and how it works, before making such blatantly incorrect and demeaning comments.

The ABYC was actually very, very, very slow to adopt ELCI's and miles behind Europe's use of RCD's. There was no "some idiot" at the ABYC that changed anything. The ABYC does not work like that and this change to E-11 took many, many years of research, the input of many individuals, organizations, lengthy investigations of other countries laws/standards and input from industry engineers and corporations.

Heck I have been working on just one portion of the electrical standards, in a sub committee, for over three years and far too many meetings, teleconfrences and emails to count.. I don't even have a clue when we might get to the actual language, we are still in research, but when we do we'll have many more meetings to tweak, strike through, delete, modify etc.. I can assure you that every known standard, industry specification, law etc. that deals with the subject has been poured over and investigated to the nth degree. We've also spent countless hours taking with engineers in the field and the manufacturers who make the products we are developing this part of the standard for.

There are issues with ELCI's but the issues are more to do with pre-existing & horribly botched and unsafe AC/DC wiring on millions of pre-existing non ABYC or Euro/RCD compliant boats. Recently the NEC/NFPA also have updated marine wiring codes (which are actually law) to include equipment leakage devices devices on shore power dock feeds, finger feeds etc..

The implementation of these laws are proving to be fraught with issues because so many boats are incorrectly wired, that the nuisance trip rate is extremely high even with the 100mA / 100mS main feeders. The NEC/NFPA & shore side electricians, who are following the law, are quickly learning what happens when an entire industry (marine) has "optional" standards that are not enforceable by law.

If you believe you are smarter than the ABYC I would urge you to get involved, write letters or join & get on a committee. The ABYC is open to everyone so being Canadian is not an excuse.

You can make a difference but you'll be best to know what you are talking about at a very in-depth and high level of understanding. I have had some of my own concerns, regarding safety, make it all the way into a the standards but it took FIVE + years and far too many meetings to even count, and this was a; "D'oh how dumb can we be by not previously requiring this" kind of issue. More complex issues, like ELCI's, take even longer to get into the standards and they are absolutely not done on a whim...
 
Jan 11, 2014
12,958
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
MS,

I appreciate your commitment to safe boating and helping the masses. Could you help us understand the reasoning behind the ELCI requirement I, for one, would appreciate it. If adding an ELCI to my AC system at a cost of ~$150 will make my boat safer for me and others then is it is a small cost to bear.

Thanks,

Dave
 
Jan 30, 2012
1,142
Nor'Sea 27 "Kiwanda" Portland/ Anacortes
I am not Maine Sail but there is no requirement that an ECLI be installed. The ABYC rules are something one shold follow but they are not mandatory and that is because the ABYC requirements are advisory - so long as you do not have an inspected vessel.

In particular - with 100% GFCI and if all the devices on the boat are energized through these GFCI devices - a whole boat ECLI gains you no additional protection (there are rare exceptions).

Some devices will cause nuisance trips if the device is energized through a GFCI thus the higher trip theshold in an ECLI but so far I have not found GFCI nuisance trips on recreational boats very often.

The thing to keep in mind is that unless you know exactly why you are departing from ABYC rules - don't do it.

Charles
 
Last edited: