I have a 1985 H34 with the 120VAC and 12VDC panel made from one piece of aluminum. When the boat was surveyed, I was told to split the two panels as the requirement was to not have the back of the AC exposed when you opened the DC panel, and vice versa. I added a plastic cover over the AC section that protects all of the exposed 120VAC terminals and connectors instead of splitting the panel. This weekend in Annapolis I saw new boats with common 120VAC/12VDC panels as well as boats with separate AC and DC panels. I opened one of the common panel arrangements and the back of the panel did not have any covers or protection on the AC side. Any suggestions on what is the right thing to do or what is required by code?
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Scott
Sounds a bit rediculous to me
I'm not an electrician but I have read Calder. This sounds like your surveyor has not, is mysified by electricity himself, and is trying to protect you from yourself. I own the same boat, have done lots of refitting in this area. If you know enough not to work behind the panel when the circuits are live, you will be just fine. Simply turn off/disconnect the power to the panel before you open and work back there. This means unplugging shore power at the shore, and disconnecting the batteries. I'd be more worried about the rest of the advice from this "Surveyor" based on this tidbit.
I'm not an electrician but I have read Calder. This sounds like your surveyor has not, is mysified by electricity himself, and is trying to protect you from yourself. I own the same boat, have done lots of refitting in this area. If you know enough not to work behind the panel when the circuits are live, you will be just fine. Simply turn off/disconnect the power to the panel before you open and work back there. This means unplugging shore power at the shore, and disconnecting the batteries. I'd be more worried about the rest of the advice from this "Surveyor" based on this tidbit.
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Peggie Hall/Head Mistress
Don't be too quick to judge
Competent surveyors make recommendations based on ABYC standards, which--if they err at all--err on the side of caution. But boat builders don't always follow 'em, especially if it increases costs...we see plenty of examples of that in their choice of toally inacessible seacock locations, among other things. And two separate breaker panels do cost more than one. The operative words in your own comments are, "If you know enough not to work behind the panel when the circuits are live..." YOU know enough, but that doesn't mean it would even occur to many boat owners that shore power needs to be turned off to hook up a new 12v CD player. So, far from being mystified by electricity, the surveyor is apparently VERY familiar with ABYC standards, and is indeed trying to protect boat owners from themselves...'cuz ABYC standards are written to do just that, and the safest approach for the greatest number of boat owners is two separate panels.
Competent surveyors make recommendations based on ABYC standards, which--if they err at all--err on the side of caution. But boat builders don't always follow 'em, especially if it increases costs...we see plenty of examples of that in their choice of toally inacessible seacock locations, among other things. And two separate breaker panels do cost more than one. The operative words in your own comments are, "If you know enough not to work behind the panel when the circuits are live..." YOU know enough, but that doesn't mean it would even occur to many boat owners that shore power needs to be turned off to hook up a new 12v CD player. So, far from being mystified by electricity, the surveyor is apparently VERY familiar with ABYC standards, and is indeed trying to protect boat owners from themselves...'cuz ABYC standards are written to do just that, and the safest approach for the greatest number of boat owners is two separate panels.
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Paul
on military aircraft...
I was an aircraft electrician in the army. While we only had a few 110VAC circuits on the average army helicopter, they were not separated from the DC circuits or DC breaker panels in any particular way. 110VAC is dangerous, no matter what it's close to. Since 12VDC does not present an electrocution danger, it might make sense to split the panels just to raise your level of altertness when you have those 110VAC terminals exposed. What you see in the new boats may not be the best guide. The manufacturers will slap up the cheapest, most dangerous crap available if consumer awareness about that particular item is low, and it saves them $1.75 per unit.
I was an aircraft electrician in the army. While we only had a few 110VAC circuits on the average army helicopter, they were not separated from the DC circuits or DC breaker panels in any particular way. 110VAC is dangerous, no matter what it's close to. Since 12VDC does not present an electrocution danger, it might make sense to split the panels just to raise your level of altertness when you have those 110VAC terminals exposed. What you see in the new boats may not be the best guide. The manufacturers will slap up the cheapest, most dangerous crap available if consumer awareness about that particular item is low, and it saves them $1.75 per unit.
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Scott
Peggy is right.
The best analogy is the seat belt in some cars that automatically wraps around you when you close the door. The assumption is that you are not smart enough to put it on yourself, even though it is as simple as zipping your pants and obviously the prudent thing to do. It's a good thing the ABYC and these surveyors are out there to protect against Darwinism.
The best analogy is the seat belt in some cars that automatically wraps around you when you close the door. The assumption is that you are not smart enough to put it on yourself, even though it is as simple as zipping your pants and obviously the prudent thing to do. It's a good thing the ABYC and these surveyors are out there to protect against Darwinism.
Interpretation of the regualtion!
The surveyor may or may not know the exact interpretation of the regulation either. They make covers for panels with AC & DC circuits on the same panel just for the ABYC regs. Here is a excerpt from the ABYC regs. http://bluesea.com/abyc.htm
The surveyor may or may not know the exact interpretation of the regulation either. They make covers for panels with AC & DC circuits on the same panel just for the ABYC regs. Here is a excerpt from the ABYC regs. http://bluesea.com/abyc.htm
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John Miller
Thanks Steve
As usual you are "right on"! Thanks for the link. I have been on their site but had not yet found the reference you provided. "E.8.19 PANELBOARDS E-8.19.4 Boats equipped with both AC and DC electrical systems shall have their distribution on separate panelboards, or in the case of systems with combined AC and DC panelboards, the panel shall be designed so that when the panel is open there is no access to energized AC parts without the use of tools." Peggy, thanks for the feedback. My surveyor came highly recomended and all information and recomendations I received from him has been excellent. It looks like I did the right thing by using a bolt in plastic shield over the 120VAC panel. I have been working with electrical and electronic equipment for 35 years and most of the time I am smart enough to disconnect the source before working in a pannelboard. I also bought Calder's book before rewiring the boat. But, his book is not a substitute for ABYC and it did not cover this particular area. As mentioned in the first posting, in one of the new 34' boats I looked at last weekend, the AC & DC panels were connected. No shield was installed over the back of the AC side of the panel and I opened the panel with my fingers. So much for the ABYC requirement. Makes you wonder how many other corners are cut in order to save a buck.
As usual you are "right on"! Thanks for the link. I have been on their site but had not yet found the reference you provided. "E.8.19 PANELBOARDS E-8.19.4 Boats equipped with both AC and DC electrical systems shall have their distribution on separate panelboards, or in the case of systems with combined AC and DC panelboards, the panel shall be designed so that when the panel is open there is no access to energized AC parts without the use of tools." Peggy, thanks for the feedback. My surveyor came highly recomended and all information and recomendations I received from him has been excellent. It looks like I did the right thing by using a bolt in plastic shield over the 120VAC panel. I have been working with electrical and electronic equipment for 35 years and most of the time I am smart enough to disconnect the source before working in a pannelboard. I also bought Calder's book before rewiring the boat. But, his book is not a substitute for ABYC and it did not cover this particular area. As mentioned in the first posting, in one of the new 34' boats I looked at last weekend, the AC & DC panels were connected. No shield was installed over the back of the AC side of the panel and I opened the panel with my fingers. So much for the ABYC requirement. Makes you wonder how many other corners are cut in order to save a buck.
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Terry
BEFORE WE JUDGE TO QUICKLY...
and cast Hunter to the trash heap, how about giving them a call and see what kind of answer you get. I'd like to hear back as to what they say. Thanks. Terry
and cast Hunter to the trash heap, how about giving them a call and see what kind of answer you get. I'd like to hear back as to what they say. Thanks. Terry
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John Miller
Not a Hunter
Was not trying to imply the 34 I looked at was a Hunter. Sorry if I was not clear. If I remember correctly the Hunter had split the AC and DC panels in the boat I looked at. The Catalina 34 had their pannel mounted in a hinged wood frame with thumb latches holding it in place and when I opened the panel the AC connections had no protection from accidental contact.
Was not trying to imply the 34 I looked at was a Hunter. Sorry if I was not clear. If I remember correctly the Hunter had split the AC and DC panels in the boat I looked at. The Catalina 34 had their pannel mounted in a hinged wood frame with thumb latches holding it in place and when I opened the panel the AC connections had no protection from accidental contact.
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Terry
HUNTER 28 AND P42 ARE THE SAME...
when you open the panel on our P42 the DC and AC terminals are exposed with no special coverings. My house is the same way. If you take the panel cover off you have access to all the terminals and wires. You could have the boat maker install a protective cover over the AC terminals but I'm not sure what purpose it would serve. I know when I open the terminal cover at home or the boat that it comes with a risk, but I'm doing it for a reason, to fix a problem. I can choose to do it myself or hire a professional to do the work. Terry
when you open the panel on our P42 the DC and AC terminals are exposed with no special coverings. My house is the same way. If you take the panel cover off you have access to all the terminals and wires. You could have the boat maker install a protective cover over the AC terminals but I'm not sure what purpose it would serve. I know when I open the terminal cover at home or the boat that it comes with a risk, but I'm doing it for a reason, to fix a problem. I can choose to do it myself or hire a professional to do the work. Terry
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David
AC DC
ABYC section E9.20.3 states AC panel and switchboard or AC portion of a single panel and switchboard shall have no exposed AC parts when the DC panel is open.
ABYC section E9.20.3 states AC panel and switchboard or AC portion of a single panel and switchboard shall have no exposed AC parts when the DC panel is open.
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Terry
WHAT DOES THAT MEAN...
David, if the opened panel has exposed DC on one side and exposed (whatever exposed means) AC on the other, as it is on the P42 and H28? To me it sounds like a little deal. Thanks. Terry
David, if the opened panel has exposed DC on one side and exposed (whatever exposed means) AC on the other, as it is on the P42 and H28? To me it sounds like a little deal. Thanks. Terry
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David
Little Deal
I don't know what you mean by little deal, I simply quoted the ABYC recommended standard.
I don't know what you mean by little deal, I simply quoted the ABYC recommended standard.
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