Rudder or outboard motor

[yammy]

Hello, Macgregor-ers

Two weeks ago I managed to leave, and return to, the dock for the first time. Except one slip neighbour saying "oh my god" loudly, everything went ok; but I quickly learned more about my 26S. When it was going forward, it could turn left and right. Problem began when it was moving in reverse, it could only go either straight or to the left, but not to the right.

The current set up is that the outboard motor is fixed pointing straight to the back. For turning, I would use only the tiller/rudder. Is this set up incorrect?

Kenneth on Blessed

 

[Sumner]

Hello, Macgregor-ers

Two weeks ago I managed to leave, and return to, the dock for the first time. Except one slip neighbor saying "oh my god" loudly, everything went ok; but I quickly learned more about my 26S.

When it was going forward, it could turn left and right. Problem began when it was moving in reverse, it could only go either straight or to the left, but not to the right.

The current set up is that the outboard motor is fixed pointing straight to the back. For turning, I would use only the tiller/rudder. Is this set up incorrect?

Kenneth on Blessed

That is probably a function of the prop rotation. It is suppose to be a problem on the boat we just bought and I read of it on a number of boats with inboards and a fixed prop.

We have never had the problem on the Mac because we always turn the outboard with the rudder and the boat turns either way fine. One problem we have had is running the prop into the rudder a few times and now the rudder looks like it was attacked by jaws.

To keep the prop off the rudder and to make it easier on Ruth who is usually on the tiller and the outboard and doesn't have the longest arms I made a connector...

...that attaches in a few seconds between the tiller and the outboard. Now she just has to point the back of the tiller where she wants to go.

Here is the mod....

http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/macgregor2/outside-29.html

....and a couple YouTube links on it if anyone is interested,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UYc2ZHehS8&feature=channel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COMAPYd5WTg&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sWbLBGc1Is&feature=relmfu

If we are not maneuvering in tight quarters or anchoring the outboard just sits there facing ahead and only the tiller is used,

Sum

Our Endeavour 37

Our Trips to Utah, Idaho, Canada, Florida

Our MacGregor S Pages

Mac-Venture Links

 

[Mike B1026]

You really shouldn't have a problem with "prop walk" with an outboard, I wouldn't think.
Are you sure when you were trying to turn with the outboard, that your rudder wasn't pointing the wrong way? You might be sure the rudder doesn't flop over to the wrong side.

Normally I have the outboard adjusted tight enough so it stays pointing ahead and use the tiller to steer, unless I need to turn very tight.

 

[yammy]

thank you for the youtube links, Sumner. your comment about "...now the rudder looks like it was attacked by jaws" is quite funny. i also read the other links in your posting, and was very intrigued by your sailing journeys. those are the same reasons of me buying this boat as well.

That is probably a function of the prop rotation. It is suppose to be a problem on the boat we just bought and I read of it on a number of boats with inboards and a fixed prop.

We have never had the problem on the Mac because we always turn the outboard with the rudder and the boat turns either way fine. One problem we have had is running the prop into the rudder a few times and now the rudder looks like it was attacked by jaws.

To keep the prop off the rudder and to make it easier on Ruth who is usually on the tiller and the outboard and doesn't have the longest arms I made a connector...

...that attaches in a few seconds between the tiller and the outboard. Now she just has to point the back of the tiller where she wants to go.

Here is the mod....

http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/macgregor2/outside-29.html

....and a couple YouTube links on it if anyone is interested,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UYc2ZHehS8&feature=channel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COMAPYd5WTg&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sWbLBGc1Is&feature=relmfu

If we are not maneuvering in tight quarters or anchoring the outboard just sits there facing ahead and only the tiller is used,

Sum

Our Endeavour 37

Our Trips to Utah, Idaho, Canada, Florida

Our MacGregor S Pages

Mac-Venture Links

 

[yammy]

thank you, Mike. when i was leaving the dock, i did point the rudder the wrong way a few times but once it got out to the open water, i took the advice from another slip neighbour and did a few forward and reverse figure-8 just to learn more about the boat.

sounds like both of our boats' set up are the same: outboard adjusted tight enough so it stays pointing ahead and use the tiller to steer. i am going out for the second time this or next weekend, and shall see if there are ways i can handle it different.

You really shouldn't have a problem with "prop walk" with an outboard, I wouldn't think.
Are you sure when you were trying to turn with the outboard, that your rudder wasn't pointing the wrong way? You might be sure the rudder doesn't flop over to the wrong side.

Normally I have the outboard adjusted tight enough so it stays pointing ahead and use the tiller to steer, unless I need to turn very tight.

 

[Faris]

I've got a considerable shorter boat, but have no choice but to use both rudder and motor to turn in some circumstances. I have two slips (in two cities), and both require some pretty tight maneuvering. At my slip up here in Blaine, my approach is confounded by the majority of boats who have outboards overhanging their slips. So, I have skirt the gauntlet of outboards on my starboard until I make my turn to port into my slip - which ties on the port side and gives me just a few feet between me and the boat parked to starboard.

Using the tiller alone, I could not make that sharp turn. What's more, if I could not turn my motor, I would have no recourse once I got into the slip and wind, tide, or inattentiveness put me in at a bad angle. I generally make about a 120 degree turn to port just past my slip. This brings me into the slip at a slight angle, bow first. Once in the slip, I put the outboard in reverse and angle it all the way to port (pushing the handle to starboard) to stop forward motion and swing the stern up to the dock.

In my other slip, I have to squeeze between two wide boats parked parallel to each other on opposite docks, then parallel park immediately in front of the one to starboard without running into the shed immediately in front of me. I follow the contour of the boat to starboard up to the dock, then put it in hard reverse and turn the outboard all the way to pull the stern into place. It's almost like having a bow thruster.

In less tight accommodations, you certainly wouldn't need to turn the outboard, but I wouldn't want to dock without the option. I would be much less adventuresome about where I went.

 

[timebandit]

Just some things when the motor does not move--

The boat handles way more better with the keel down

The rudder will not work without water flowing over it

Prop walk is your friend :dance:

Spring lines are great

Use lots of power to start the boat moving and eliminate most of the prop walk and then idle down and turn.

Throw an ice chest in the water for pratice, install beer in the chest for additional incentive.

 

[quality tyme]

thank you, Mike. when i was leaving the dock, i did point the rudder the wrong way a few times but once it got out to the open water, i took the advice from another slip neighbour and did a few forward and reverse figure-8 just to learn more about the boat.

sounds like both of our boats' set up are the same: outboard adjusted tight enough so it stays pointing ahead and use the tiller to steer. i am going out for the second time this or next weekend, and shall see if there are ways i can handle it different.

I have the 26c as well and docking is always the worst part of the trip. I have found that trying to use the rudder and outboard at the same time is alot more difficult then just using the motor. I find pulling up the rudder and using just the outboard gives me much more mobility. Sometimes having both on the go hinders you especially when backing up. Give it a try and don't be afraid to give it some throttle when changing direction she will really turn pretty good for a 26 foot boat!!
Quality tyme

 

[MrBill_FLL]

I sometimes turn my engine when docking.

the boat turns better one side than the other (I think its stb, but not sure).

I also set my engine offset in the motor well, so I can turn it pretty much in one direction, but not so much in the other...

and I hardly use reverse...

if I need to stop in a current or need to wait for a bridge against currnent, I spin 180 degrees and go back in fwd... maintaining position using forward... and can go backwards w/current in forward gear... much more control.

 

[yammy]

had i told you the size of my slip, you would have laughed your head off. my 26s is docked in a 30-foot slip. :neutral:

i went out for the second time on saturday (two days ago), and did slightly better. this round, i also raised the mainsail, and can now say: i went sailing on my macgregor over the weekend!

i had checked the outboard and discovered it might not have been pointing exactly straight, and made adjustment accordingly. she can now turn a bit to the right when going in reverse. also, for added safety for my neighbours' boats, i bought another telescoping boat hook so now i got two: one for fending boats at the front, and one for all businesses in the back.

...can't wait to go sailing again this friday

I've got a considerable shorter boat, but have no choice but to use both rudder and motor to turn in some circumstances. I have two slips (in two cities), and both require some pretty tight maneuvering. At my slip up here in Blaine, my approach is confounded by the majority of boats who have outboards overhanging their slips. So, I have skirt the gauntlet of outboards on my starboard until I make my turn to port into my slip - which ties on the port side and gives me just a few feet between me and the boat parked to starboard.

Using the tiller alone, I could not make that sharp turn. What's more, if I could not turn my motor, I would have no recourse once I got into the slip and wind, tide, or inattentiveness put me in at a bad angle. I generally make about a 120 degree turn to port just past my slip. This brings me into the slip at a slight angle, bow first. Once in the slip, I put the outboard in reverse and angle it all the way to port (pushing the handle to starboard) to stop forward motion and swing the stern up to the dock.

In my other slip, I have to squeeze between two wide boats parked parallel to each other on opposite docks, then parallel park immediately in front of the one to starboard without running into the shed immediately in front of me. I follow the contour of the boat to starboard up to the dock, then put it in hard reverse and turn the outboard all the way to pull the stern into place. It's almost like having a bow thruster.

In less tight accommodations, you certainly wouldn't need to turn the outboard, but I wouldn't want to dock without the option. I would be much less adventuresome about where I went.

 

[yammy]

hahahaha...thank you, timebandit!

i will observe how my boat prop-walks this friday; just read this after reading your posting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propeller_walk.

Just some things when the motor does not move--

The boat handles way more better with the keel down

The rudder will not work without water flowing over it

Prop walk is your friend :dance:

Spring lines are great

Use lots of power to start the boat moving and eliminate most of the prop walk and then idle down and turn.

Throw an ice chest in the water for pratice, install beer in the chest for additional incentive.

 

[yammy]

thank you, Quality tyme.

i will try turning her with the outboard, and shall lift the rudder out of the water beforehand. right now it is in the water, double-bolted.

two days ago when i went out, it was slightly better; although going in and out of my slip is still not my favourite. i'm going out again this friday!

I have the 26c as well and docking is always the worst part of the trip. I have found that trying to use the rudder and outboard at the same time is alot more difficult then just using the motor. I find pulling up the rudder and using just the outboard gives me much more mobility. Sometimes having both on the go hinders you especially when backing up. Give it a try and don't be afraid to give it some throttle when changing direction she will really turn pretty good for a 26 foot boat!!
Quality tyme

 

[yammy]

thank you, MrBill_FLL. what does 'stb' stand for?

I sometimes turn my engine when docking.

the boat turns better one side than the other (I think its stb, but not sure).

I also set my engine offset in the motor well, so I can turn it pretty much in one direction, but not so much in the other...

and I hardly use reverse...

if I need to stop in a current or need to wait for a bridge against currnent, I spin 180 degrees and go back in fwd... maintaining position using forward... and can go backwards w/current in forward gear... much more control.

 

[timebandit]

Fenders are your friends

Get 'em out early.

stb=starboard

 

[yammy]

I see. Thank you, timebandit.

Fenders are your friends

Get 'em out early.

stb=starboard

 

[Cruiser1]

right now it is in the water, double-bolted.

That sounds a bit of a worry. There should be an uphaul rope on the rudder and a downhaul rope ie. one to lift it out of the water and the other to pull it down into the water and keep it there - whichever one is being used, they can be cleated off - although best not to cleat the downhaul too firmly in case your rudder hits something and it needs to be released quickly. I would think it a bit dangerous to have the blade double bolted as if you hit something the whole rudder system may come adrift.

If you are just talking a plastic shear bolt that is a different matter and of course it is designed to shear.

 

[yammy]

Thank you, Cruiser. On some of the dingies I knew, that was the system on them: one rope to raise the rudder and another to lower it. I will re-read the 26s manual and set it up that way. Then, I would not have to leave the rudder in salt water for the entire summer, which is preferrable for me.

That sounds a bit of a worry. There should be an uphaul rope on the rudder and a downhaul rope ie. one to lift it out of the water and the other to pull it down into the water and keep it there - whichever one is being used, they can be cleated off - although best not to cleat the downhaul too firmly in case your rudder hits something and it needs to be released quickly. I would think it a bit dangerous to have the blade double bolted as if you hit something the whole rudder system may come adrift.

If you are just talking a plastic shear bolt that is a different matter and of course it is designed to shear.

 

[timebandit]

One big difference between out boats and most articles written for larger boats with inboards is that they have little prop walk in forward because the prop thrust is directed at the rudder.

We have equall walk in forward and reverse with the engine locked straight because the motor is located off center.

Prop walk works best just above idle when the boat does not move foward or back and the prop just bites into the water sideways.

hahahaha...thank you, timebandit!

i will observe how my boat prop-walks this friday; just read this after reading your posting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propeller_walk.

 

[Cruiser1]

Hi Kenneth, this is a photo of the rudder on my boat. The downhaul rope goes up through the inside of stainless steel rudder post, comes up over the end of the tiller (and wears a little groove in the process) and passes through the eye of the cleat on top of the tiller - just tie a knot it the end of it so it does not slip out of the cleat and travel back down through the rudder post.

The up haul rope just comes up into the cockpit and either one of the ropes will be tied off on the tiller cleat - depending whether the rudder is up or down.

If you are moored at your berth it is best to tie the rudder handle over to one side when you are away from the boat so the rudder does not move around and do some damage.

 

[yammy]

THANK YOU, Cruiser! This picture is timely as I started looking for some instructions yesterday at the marina.

Hi Kenneth, this is a photo of the rudder on my boat. The downhaul rope goes up through the inside of stainless steel rudder post, comes up over the end of the tiller (and wears a little groove in the process) and passes through the eye of the cleat on top of the tiller - just tie a knot it the end of it so it does not slip out of the cleat and travel back down through the rudder post.

The up haul rope just comes up into the cockpit and either one of the ropes will be tied off on the tiller cleat - depending whether the rudder is up or down.

If you are moored at your berth it is best to tie the rudder handle over to one side when you are away from the boat so the rudder does not move around and do some damage.