Rig tuning

May 23, 2016
214
O'Day 1984 23 Island Park, NY
Trying to help a friend with a Catalina 22, wing keel...
When tuning the rig to suggested starting tensions, as a rule of thumb, would one expect the suggestions to be with our without the boom hanging off the rig?
 
Sep 15, 2016
615
Catalina 22 Minnesota
With Boom installed, boat floating on her lines (weight properly distributed) and weight 3 inches or so below the boom to set rake with boom at band height. North sails has a good starting place for tuning and the Catalina 22 association has the best initial numbers for tuning a Wing keel. The wIng boats are a bit heavier, tend to have a little more weather helm, and depending on who you ask require slightly less rake in the initial setup than the swing boats do. If your racing the wing you will want to play around with the tensions quite a bit to find what works for you. I race my wing and it has been 3 years of trying different tunes to find what works and I am still not satisfied yet.

Other rig tuning sources are Waters sails, Ullman Sails, and the various articles in the Mainbrace / C22 Tech Manual.

 
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May 23, 2016
214
O'Day 1984 23 Island Park, NY
Thanks... i Also noted him allowing down significantly while taking, having Lee helm while trying to accelerate out of the track... I have my own ideas, but does this boat prefer a gradual dial up or a tight corner?
 
Sep 15, 2016
615
Catalina 22 Minnesota
Thanks... i Also noted him allowing down significantly while taking, having Lee helm while trying to accelerate out of the track... I have my own ideas, but does this boat prefer a gradual dial up or a tight corner?
Wing keels take longer to accelerate out of a tack. Let speed build then point. To ease weather helm reduce rake on the mast (most masts are tuned too tight). Also the Class Rules allow for an up to 1 inch spacer under the upper rudder Gudgeon to move the rudder no further forward than a vertical line from the transom. Moving the rudder will also significantly reduce weather helm.

The C22 association and tech manual has tons of resources on tweaking a C22 for racing. Or you could always come to a national race! I'm heading down to Pensacola with our wing in a few weeks and you'll learn more in that week of racing than in years f reading / internet searches!
 
May 23, 2016
214
O'Day 1984 23 Island Park, NY
Lee helm. Not weather. But really the question is between a gradual entry into the tack vs banging a sharp corner
 
May 23, 2016
214
O'Day 1984 23 Island Park, NY
Now I see the tension recommended by North is very different from what's recommended for setting wing keel downloaded from class Association, even after adjusting for different tension gauge...
Any thoughts?
 
Sep 15, 2016
615
Catalina 22 Minnesota
Now I see the tension recommended by North is very different from what's recommended for setting wing keel downloaded from class Association, even after adjusting for different tension gauge...
Any thoughts?
North is a starting point. I prefer the lower numbers from the C22 association though the rig does seem stupid loose if your used to it being tight. If your having lee helm issues check that your mast is not raked forward. Seems to me if you pull it aft you should gain what you're looking for. Last season I ran with the much higher numbers listed by Bob from the association. This year I am playing with a mix between the looser numbers and the swing setup. It's all trial and error for sure. If I remember correctly on a Loose model A my uppers were 10-15 my forwards were 6-8, afts were hand tight, and forestay (with no tension on the backstay) had 6 inch or so of side to side movement at head height. I had ok success with these numbers but going forward I am going to try and give the forestay a little more sag in lighter airs and perhaps loosen the forwards a little as well. I started with no rake and have not found the proper setting for that yet so it's all trial and error for me still.

Wing keels like a gradual turn where you steer through the tack. You will lose all speed if your just slam her over. Also when sheeting in for the next tack I get the genoa close, count to 10 or so to allow the boat to build speed and then finish trimming to come up in the wind. The swing boats can really slam over and sheet in right away but the wing take time. She has a narrow grove and must be handled gently to make her fast. I say all of this of course knowing that I am not yet fast nor have I won any races at this point. Soon though I home to change all that!
Here is a great article on racing the wing form the C22 association.

 
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May 23, 2016
214
O'Day 1984 23 Island Park, NY
AWESOME INFO... THANKS!
Yes... having been crew and even helm on his boat for 1 race I have my own thoughts on jib being released while it is still providing power, being trimmed too soon, and too tight... that day I instructed them what to change, and they agreed, but then kept doing the same thing...

So I just want to make sure I help him get the basics right, and then that my ideas are logical, before I have a heart to heart with him/them...

Those numbers you gave on the Loos model A DO seem crazy loose...

BTW that day I did make sure he had some rake before going out, can't say how much
 
May 23, 2016
214
O'Day 1984 23 Island Park, NY
BTW... I've read that article before... it seems to give several sets of VERY different tension recommendations... up top it says 14/12/8 on the Loos PT1 for the Uppers/lower-fwd/lower-aft... 125/100/?? lbs... but in the text it says 450/250/300 lbs... moreover, in that same text he says he was using a much looser rig?
 
Sep 15, 2016
615
Catalina 22 Minnesota
@glaufman Yes those numbers were a bit sloppy for sure. Hence why I added a bit more tension. The looser forestay is needed to increase sag in the headsail; to provide more power. In general you want a loose rig in light winds and slightly tighter in higher winds. The confusion in the article comes from the fact that there are not many wing keels that are raced. Generally they are sought after by the cruising crowd as they are heavier and more stable. For racing you have to be gentle in the controls, not heal much (over 15 and you'll slip sideways) and play with the rig tuning numbers. It has been my experience that most people have their rigs way too tight on these little boats. But hey to each his own. For class racing there is actually a rule that the aft lowers must remain attached so that gives you some idea how loose and "useful" those stays can be when racing. When I go cruising I adjust everything by feel. I pay more attention during a race. You'll know when the rig is tuned right as your tacking angle will significantly improve.

Other improvements are inside tracks for the sheet position or use a barber hauler if you don't have inside tracks, a spacer for the rudder, and a faired bottom. Its nice to know there is someone racing another wing out there. Often it seems like I am the only one. My personal goal is to finish well in the C22 nationals in Pensacola this year with my wing and to reduce our tacking angle to 80 deg or less while maintaining speed. To get there it will take me hours on the water and around the course constantly retuning for conditions and improving our ability to sheet the sails in.

Oh one other pointer, when you are overpowered in the wing try not to ease the sheets. Just point higher. You'll find yourself climbing the rungs faster and standing the boat back up quite a bit. The wing loves the 12+ winds and can do quite well against others in higher winds. On the downwind make sure the pole is out, weight is forward, and be easy on the tiller. Downwind is where she performs the best (IMHO).
 
Sep 15, 2016
615
Catalina 22 Minnesota
BTW... I've read that article before... it seems to give several sets of VERY different tension recommendations... up top it says 14/12/8 on the Loos PT1 for the Uppers/lower-fwd/lower-aft... 125/100/?? lbs... but in the text it says 450/250/300 lbs... moreover, in that same text he says he was using a much looser rig?

Just in case you didn't realise it those are 4 separate articles from 2 different people trying different things. That too may clear up the confusion. Its always best to keep your own numbers if you can.