Pop top winches

Nov 12, 2015
87
Catalina 22 Lake LBJ
Hello all, and thanks for the many tips I have garnered here. I have a 1982 Catalina 22, just finished a bottom job and got the keel back on yesterday- using many tips found here.

My boat was once owned by a pretty serious racer, who made many modifications. I am a cruiser, but hope to learn to use the spinnaker at some point in the future, so want to keep anything associated with that as I refurbish this tired old boat.

The question I have regards the winches he mounted on the rear of the pop-top (Lewmar single speed '7') on both sides. He then bolted the pop-top shut. Can I make the pop-top functional again with the winches in place, or does the pop-top need to remain bolted down for structural integrity ?

Also, there are cam cleats at the upper rear portion of the cabin, any idea as to what purpose they serve? (He had a lot of extra hardware on this boat, many old holes I am filling as well).
 
Nov 19, 2008
2,129
Catalina C-22 MK-II Parrish, FL
Yes you can.....BUT, it would be better to remount them onto the non-lifting portion of the cabin top and fill the holes with epoxy top it off with some touch-up gel-coat mix. Or, you can leave them as they are, but just realize that with the pop-top not secured down,(the factory clamps will be fine), as you pull the halyards, you could pull the pop-top up a bit. Most folks don't use winches for the halyards on the cabin top, racers place the winches on the cabin top for trimming the jib from the high side while racing, not for the halyards. I've installed halyard winches on the cabin top of our MK-II version because of physical issues I have from some shoulder trauma. For your halyards, I suspect that's what the cam cleats already mounted are for.

On our MK-II version, I installed rope clutches and winches on both sides for the halyards. Because I can't pull the halyards very tight, the halyards are routed through the rope clutches and I pull the sails up and tight with the winches. Then I hold them secure with the rope clutches. But, I'm a woose.....

Keep in mind, my C-22 is a different version than yours.

JIB WINCH.jpg


Don
 
Last edited:
Mar 20, 2012
3,983
Cal 34-III, MacGregor 25 Salem, Oregon
if the winches are mounted to the poptop, and if they are ever needed for what they were intended for (multiplying your leverage), it will eventually cause a failure of your poptop and its "popping" hardware if the poptop is not bolted solidly down... the dynamic loading of the lines on the winches can be severe at times and the securing hardware for a working poptop wont be enough to hold it, and things will be quickly and suddenly in jeopardy of needing some time consuming repairs, and possibly a bit expensive.

remounting them elsewhere will be a much better choice, and the labor involved in doing so will involve much less time and money than the repair to the poptop will.. the holes that are left in the poptop after moving the winches can easily be countersunk and have stainless hardware installed, and still look good, rather than the time and efford effort needed to make a proper epoxy fill look good
 
Nov 19, 2008
2,129
Catalina C-22 MK-II Parrish, FL
How do they route the lines for that config ? Not that I'll do it, just curious
The jib sheets use the cockpit winches as a turning block and the sheet goes up to the opposite side on the cabin top. Many racers install 3" turning blocks in place of the cockpit winches. The crewman's job is to trim the jib, so they sit up forward in the cockpit, or up on the gunnel to help hold the boat level.

Don
 
Nov 12, 2015
87
Catalina 22 Lake LBJ

Here is a picture of the current location, unfortunately, I don't think I have enough room between pop top and lip on cabin top to mount a winch. also, a teak handrail bolts in that position (removed for refurbishing). I guess I'll see how I do without a functional pop-top this coming season.

The P.O. has 3 inch racheting blocks in the location where I see winches usually mounted.

My other question has to do with teh cam cleats located on the side of the aft cabin, as seen below:

 
Nov 12, 2015
87
Catalina 22 Lake LBJ
Sorry, question about cam cleats is: what is function?? if anyone can guess.
 
Mar 20, 2012
3,983
Cal 34-III, MacGregor 25 Salem, Oregon
Sorry, question about cam cleats is: what is function?? if anyone can guess.
owner bolt on, not factory. probably for the 100% jib sheets before the winches were added....

yes, you dont have extra room for the winches to mounted directly to the coach roof, but you could make some bridged winch bases that would connect to the space available on top, and then bridge over the coaming and down the side of the cabin, and connect there.... then the winches could set on top of these bridged bases and be strong and out of the way of the poptop...
 
Last edited:
Nov 19, 2008
2,129
Catalina C-22 MK-II Parrish, FL
Are there cam cleats on both sides of the cabin? I believe they were for adjusting the jib cunningham. The set-up for a racer is much different than a usual cruiser C-22. You're right, on the original version C-22 with the pop-top, you don't have room for the winches, and an operational pop-top. Besides the added weight of the pop-top, that's why most serious racers are the older boats without a pop-top. Your version of the C-22 originally had external halyards that were cleated off on the mast. As you're discovering, a cruising C-22 and a racing C-22 are two different animals. Some of the racing modifications can be adopted to a cruiser to help improve performance. Nobody wants a slow boat.

Don
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
if the winches are mounted to the poptop, and if they are ever needed for what they were intended for (multiplying your leverage), it will eventually cause a failure of your poptop and its "popping" hardware if the poptop is not bolted solidly down... the dynamic loading of the lines on the winches can be severe at times and the securing hardware for a working poptop wont be enough to hold it, and things will be quickly and suddenly in jeopardy of needing some time consuming repairs, and possibly a bit expensive.
I'm not sure about this. The loads on a winch are mostly in shear, with the load being 90 degrees to the lid opening. Very little of that would translate into a lifting (tension) force. If the winch load was in tension; a different story. On the C22 I bet it takes very very little force to keep the poptop in place when using those winches.
 
Mar 20, 2012
3,983
Cal 34-III, MacGregor 25 Salem, Oregon
I'm not sure about this. The loads on a winch are mostly in shear, with the load being 90 degrees to the lid opening. Very little of that would translate into a lifting (tension) force. If the winch load was in tension; a different story. On the C22 I bet it takes very very little force to keep the poptop in place when using those winches.
yes, I could agree..... it is a shear load, and depending on how a person uses the winches and trims his rig, it is possible that there would never be enough load on the winches to have any worries.
but I am only going by what I know of the hardware/supports used in the design of the top... it has pivot bolts and the locking mechanisms, neither of which are very rugged, and the top does not any actual blocks/guides/grooves that it recesses into that would prevent the pivot bolts from taking all the shear... as functional as they have been over the years, the poptop and its hardware wasnt built to take any real loading in any direction.

If a person were to install some guide blocks bolted to the deck at the front edge of the poptop, so any shear movement of the top would come to rest against the blocks, rather than the load being taken by the hinge/support hardware, it could make all the difference. support in this way could then preserve the longevity of a nice working poptop.... as long as it never forgets to be locked down.

but even as it is, im sure it could hold for awhile, but when the pivots get worn and sloppy, OR... someone forgets to lock down a corner of the top, it will hasten the demise of the function as a good "popping" top...parts to rebuild may be difficult to obtain. but I suppose at that time the permanent bolts could be reinstalled....
 
Last edited:
Nov 12, 2015
87
Catalina 22 Lake LBJ
Don, there are cam cleats on both sides of the cabin. I'm not sure what I'm going to do about the winches, probably leave them for my first full season on the boat this coming year, then decide if I really need them there or not. I will probably do away with the cam cleats on the cabin sides and patch all the holes.

there is a deck organizer on the starboard side of the mast, and one block on deck to the port side. There is also an additional winch on the port side on top of the cabin.... but I don't have a picture of that.
 
Mar 20, 2015
3,094
C&C 30 Mk1 Winnipeg
The jib sheets use the cockpit winches as a turning block and the sheet goes up to the opposite side on the cabin top. Many racers install 3" turning blocks in place of the cockpit winches. The crewman's job is to trim the jib, so they sit up forward in the cockpit, or up on the gunnel to help hold the boat level.

Don
Thanks Don.
That also explains the turning blocks on gkmoore's boat.
Do they use trapeze harnesses on racing 22s ? lol jk.
 
Nov 19, 2008
2,129
Catalina C-22 MK-II Parrish, FL
Thanks Don.
That also explains the turning blocks on gkmoore's boat.
Do they use trapeze harnesses on racing 22s ? lol jk.
No, hiking out and harnesses are prohibited in the C-22 racing rules. While hanging out while holding onto the windward upper stay and standing on the edge of the deck is fun, it will get you a protest fairly quickly.....

Don